CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #19

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM, Respectfully, i don't think anyone is trying to change anyone's minds and i guess in that sense i speak for myself.
But without any facts in evidence CE or direct against Merritt there would be no Trial.
Most murder trials all have a degree of CE, and still end up with a conviction against the named perpetrator of the crime.
And even murder cases with no location of the murder victim are also successfully prosecuted.

Exactly.

90% of all trial are CE trials. They are repeatedly upheld by our higher appellate courts all the way to the top decision deciding court in our nation.

Direct evidence cases can be iffy, and those are appealed successfully more often due to eye witness testimony can be faulty.

I wouldn't ever want to be a juror on any case where I had to base my decision solely on eye witness testimony.

That's why it puzzles me somewhat when anyone says is only a CE case as if that diminishes its weight somehow. It simply is NOT true, and the USSC have said so many times in their various rulings.

I agree with you totally. No one is here to change anyone else's opinions, but to only state our own. What others wish to believe or disbelieve is their entitled opinion. We all have this same entitled right to express our own opinion here.

As far as myself I'm sorta like MrJitty, and discount the subjects which aren't really relevant to finding CM guilty of these crimes.

Imo, no matter where he did it or exactly what happened inside of the Mcstay home that night or where he hid the bodies before burying them, etc. Etc. Etc. really isn't important factors for me since the state doesnt have the burden of proving them anyway.

As in every case many unanswered questions will remain unanswered. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who have followed trials.

What does matter to me is all roads leads to only CM. All of it. His secretive illegal actions/activities before, and after. the uncanny timing showing his locations connecting him to where the dead victims were buried. His uncaring behavior, and actions after they were murdered on the 4th, and on, and on.

I earlier quoted the words of ADA Rick Distaso he said in his closing in Scott Peterson's DP trial. I will quote it again because I think it applies to this case very well maybe even more so due to the underhanded way this DT has presented their case.

'How many coincidences are you willing to believe, and still be able to call yourself reasonable minded people?'

Imo, the vast majority of jurors do not believe in coincidences in a serious murder trial.

Imo, They believe the CE facts presented against any defendant each had intended purpose at the time for the defendant doing them.

They will all weigh ALL of the CE facts together as a whole in their totality as they will be instructed to do.

Imo, at the end of deliberations, after going through all of the facts in evidence presented to them, it will clearly show them BARD that CM, and only CM is guilty of murdering all four.

This case is not complex. It never has been. So it will not be hard for them to follow all of the connecting dots, and link it altogether to come to their decision. Imo, which they will do unanimously.

Jmoo.

 

[mrjitty]

More to the point, IMHO, is that the defence failed to call their logical witness Riccobene. I look forward to that being put under Miss Rodriguez' microscope.

This is why it was so fascinating when Daugherty talked about the potential need to call Mr Maline on his Riccobene interview and the Judge was very hasty to rule it out

But I think the prosecution submission was correct that Maline shot his mouth off about the content of her statement in Opening so if he doesn't produce her, he opens the door to a direct assault on his unsupported allegations.

Especially Daugherty wanted to tunnel into the defence relationship with and handling of this junkie witness

 

[mrjitty]

The defense has not (yet) put on its cell phone expert, and hasn't indicated it is going to.

At halftime this was the Judge's summation of the cell phone evidence and his comments about the DT in relation to all of his summation about the PT's case:

"And then we have the cell phone cell tower locations principally relating to February 6th 2010 - FBI Agent Boles. That information indicates that from at least, well there was a phone call at 10.46 am from the defendant’s cell phone in the area of Mojave Drive near Oro Grande, which is certainly in the general area of where the bodies were buried. Then between 11.30 and 11.52 am there were a series of calls that had originated from the tower above the grave sites with an 85 degree azimuth as the first contact which would place the cell phone in a cone going out from the cell tower and included within that cone is the grave sites. There was another phone call at 1.30 pm with the originating azimuth of 170 degrees with a terminating tower in Victorville and the 170 degree azimuth of the originating call and the azimuth of the terminating call in Victorville was also in a cone that would have included the grave sites. So it places Mr Merritt’s cell phone in the area of the grave sites for a considerable period of time on February 6th. That becomes somewhat more significant given the geography of that area. If we had a cell phone in a location in a cone in the middle of a city whether the city is San Bernardino, Victorville or Rancho, and within that cone is an area where a crime occurred or a body was left might not be that significant because there is a lot of other residences a lot of other businesses a lot of other locations where people could be within that cone, not so where the area where the bodies were buried. The cone going out from the cell tower which includes the area of the grave site is mostly open desert, if you go far enough south you eventually do get into the city of Victorville but placing the cell phone in that general area which is mostly desert is certainly more significant than it would be if it were all city area.

Now certainly all of that information that I’ve just gone over was subject to considerable cross-examination and I have no doubt that Mr McGee and Mr Maline could give their closing argument now on that information and, which would probably take the better part of a day and with a different argument, different analysis, different inferences and different conclusions to be drawn. But that really is not the standard for the court to look at with regard to an 1118.1 motion to dismiss. The standard on 1118.1 motion is not that all other analysis or conclusions can be eliminated but rather the standard is IF the jury were to accept, and of course I’m not going through every exhibit, I’m not going through every item of evidence, and every point that the prosecution may argue, that supports a verdict of guilty, I’m only considering what the court considers the primary or major factors, there are a lot of other potential issues that the prosecution may argue support guilt but I’m not considering those in the 1118.1 motion. So as I was saying, the standard is not that can the court eliminate all of those other analyses or conclusions but rather the standard on the 1118.1 motion to dismiss is IF the jury were to accept the prosecution’s evidence and arguments and analyses and conclusions AND conclude that that is sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefore return a verdict of guilty, and thereby by inference was rejecting the defense evidence the defense arguments and the defense analyses, WOULD that decision by the jury be supported by substantial evidence. The points that I just went through in the court’s view do support or would support such a finding by the jury. So the court finds that if the jury accepted the prosecution’s evidence, arguments and conclusions and returned a verdict of guilty that there is substantial evidence to support such a finding. For those reasons the motion to dismiss pursuant to Penal Code Section 1118.1 is denied."

Thanks for transcribing this

I see the cell evidence as mainly ruling CM in to contention when the defence needs him ruled out by something (i.e. a digital alibi)

Ditto the security footage. It doesn't 100% prove it's Chase's truck, but it certainly could well be Chase's truck. The defence need it to exclude Chase.

The backdated cheques are at the centre of concentric rings of evidence.

All the outlying puzzle pieces fit to show a coherent big picture.

The defence need a required piece not to fit.

 

[BradB]

Imo, no matter where he did it or exactly what happened inside of the Mcstay home that night or where he hid the bodies before burying them, etc. Etc. Etc. really isn't important factors for me since the state doesnt have the burden of proving them anyway.

It doesnt but it helps to convict. It takes one juror to doubt Merrit did all this and left not a single shred of evidence behind whether inside the house or anywhere for that matter. You can slice technology however you want it. Pings arent accurate. Going into computers and doing certain things casts suspicion but doesnt prove anything really. I just wish there was something concrete in this case that makes it a lock he goes down but I'm afraid there isnt.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This is why it was so fascinating when Daugherty talked about the potential need to call Mr Maline on his Riccobene interview and the Judge was very hasty to rule it out

But I think the prosecution submission was correct that Maline shot his mouth off about the content of her statement in Opening so if he doesn't produce her, he opens the door to a direct assault on his unsupported allegations.

Especially Daugherty wanted to tunnel into the defence relationship with and handling of this junkie witness

Lol! It's hard to believe the DT lost track of this key witness!

They seem to not have the ability needed to be able locate anyone. Is that a convenience or is that another coincidence they want the jury to believe? Lol

I'm beginning to think their own investigator probably can't even use his own navigational system in his vehicle. LOL!

 

[Tortoise]

Lol! It's hard to believe the DT lost track of this key witness!

They seem to not have the ability needed to be able locate anyone. Is that a convenience or is that another coincidence they want the jury to believe? Lol

I'm beginning to think their own investigator probably can't even use his own navigational system in his vehicle. LOL!

I don't think he could hide his amusement during questioning. That was my fading impression of him anyway, I'd have to watch it again to be sure.

 

[Longtimenoc]

It doesnt but it helps to convict. It takes one juror to doubt Merrit did all this and left not a single shred of evidence behind whether inside the house or anywhere for that matter. You can slice technology however you want it. Pings arent accurate. Going into computers and doing certain things casts suspicion but doesnt prove anything really. I just wish there was something concrete in this case that makes it a lock he goes down but I'm afraid there isnt.

What about calling QuickBooks and impersonating JM in an attempt to delete the company ledger? Doesn't it make you go hmmm...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It doesnt but it helps to convict. It takes one juror to doubt Merrit did all this and left not a single shred of evidence behind whether inside the house or anywhere for that matter. You can slice technology however you want it. Pings arent accurate. Going into computers and doing certain things casts suspicion but doesnt prove anything really. I just wish there was something concrete in this case that makes it a lock he goes down but I'm afraid there isnt.

Hi Brad.

I have full faith in this jury to connect the dots.

Many other jurors didnt have the things you have listed either, yet day after day, all across this nation, they are able to render the correct verdict unanimously.

Heck many juries are now sitting on no body missing persons cases. They were able to base their verdict on the powerful CE presented to them. Even though they did not know where the murder happened, had no forensic DNA, no murder weapon, nor the body nor even knew exactly how the victim was killed by the accused muderer. Yet these kind of cases are successfully routinely won nowadays. It shows me jurors are very capable of linking all of the CE presented to them to come to the correct determination.

Its a perfect example of how weighty CE in all trials truly are.

Here this jury has much much more ...so I'm not worried they won't be able to figure all of the compelling CE facts out they will have before them during deliberations, and will come to the correct verdict.

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

What about calling QuickBooks and impersonating JM in an attempt to delete the company ledger? Doesn't it make you go hmmm...

Hi there!

So many hmmms to consider.

All of the evidence presented to this jury shows CM was the only one who knew on the 4th the entire Joey McStay family wouldnt ever be returning home alive ever again.

The only one on earth who knew this at the time it happened was the killer himself. God instantly knew what he had done and HE will deal with CM later.

But for NOW he will be judged by the law of our land, and the men/women who sits in judgement.

The ONLY way he could have possibly known that, when no one else did... is because he was the one who had made it happen.

He knew the entire McStay family of 4 was no more, and he knew it on the 4th because he is the only one who was there at the time taking their lives away from them.

There is simply no way around the evidence presented against CM showing that to be the case..

That's why I continue to say this case of what happened to them, and by whom is not complex to figure out.

But then most murder cases aren't complex either, and are actually pretty straight forward like this one.

Now some of the theories laid out before trial even begins may be complex ones, and wayout in pretzel land somewhere lol!, but the actual trials themselves are not.

Imo

 

[smr]

a desire to seek for the truth. Of course, I'm not alone in that. Many other people care about this case that much.

I thought everyone on this thread cares about this case very much? Caring about this case is not equivalent to believing CM is guilty.

Whether one cares about the victims has nothing to do with whom one believes to be the killer(s).

What about calling QuickBooks and impersonating JM in an attempt to delete the company ledger? Doesn't it make you go hmmm...

Regardless if it's sufficiently proved, but even if CM did the alleged calling and "impersonating" JM, that is zero evidence linking him to the MURDER.

(Oh, talk about impersonating, didn't DK's ex girlfriend say he told her he went to JM's house and pretended to be JM for some hours? I know there has been no testimony of this so far, but even if the girlfriend testified on this, and even if there is proof that DK impersonated JM, it's not a proof of murder by DK just as as the same holds true for CM.)

 

[la2cabo]

I thought everyone on this thread cares about this case very much. Caring about this case is entirely different from believing CM is guilty.



Regardless if it's sufficiently proved, but even if CM did the alleged calling and "impersonating" JM, that is zero evidence linking him to the MURDER.

(Oh, talk about impersonating, didn't DK's ex girlfriend say he told her he went to JM's house and pretended to be JM for some hours? I know there has been no testimony of this so far, but even if the girlfriend testified on this, and even if there is proof that DK impersonated JM, it's not a proof of murder by DK just as as the same holds true for CM.)

BBM
This sole piece of evidence may not tie Merritt to the murders but when you add in all of the other pieces it most certainly points to Merritt.

I have no idea what DK's ex has said since she hasn't testified. Plus for all we know she could've been strung out and hallucinating.

 

[smr]

Isn't there a video somewhere, that shows the JUDGE listing all of the incriminating evidence, which points to CM? I think it was when the DT wanted to have all charges formally dismissed.

At about the halfway mark.

2+ months have passed since the judge went over that list. Things have changed.

 

[Karinna]

2+ months have passed since the judge went over that list. Things have changed.

Nothing has changed IMO and Merritt still has a case to answer.

 

[Karinna]

I thought everyone on this thread cares about this case very much? Caring about this case is not equivalent to believing CM is guilty.

Whether one cares about the victims has nothing to do with whom one believes to be the killer(s).



Regardless if it's sufficiently proved, but even if CM did the alleged calling and "impersonating" JM, that is zero evidence linking him to the MURDER.

(Oh, talk about impersonating, didn't DK's ex girlfriend say he told her he went to JM's house and pretended to be JM for some hours? I know there has been no testimony of this so far, but even if the girlfriend testified on this, and even if there is proof that DK impersonated JM, it's not a proof of murder by DK just as as the same holds true for CM.)

BBM, That is a big piece of evidence Merritt is the killer. He had absolutely no authority in the QB accounts as per search warrant findings.
It points to him knowing that JM was not coming back to any logical thinking mind. He would not have dared to do such if JM would be back at anytime and found this out. Merritt would of been back in court charged with Fraud, yet again to do another stint in prison, and he would of known that no matter how many people choose to ignore this fact.
And when did Merritt ever deny this to LE? Of course he was the culprit with the wanting to delete the QB's.

 

[la2cabo]

Nothing has changed IMO and Merritt still has a case to answer.

I don't think much has changed either other than the PT supporting their assertions. I have faith the jurors are as intelligent as Judge Smith and will see through the smoke and mirrors. I don't particularly care for the way the judge handles his courtroom, however, I do think he's a very smart man with a fantastic BS meter.

 

[Karinna]

I don't think much has changed either other than the PT supporting their assertions. I have faith the jurors are as intelligent as Judge Smith and will see through the smoke and mirrors. I don't particularly care for the way the judge handles his courtroom, however, I do think he's a very smart man with a fantastic BS meter.

Agree with what you say about the judge. Although at times i feel he lets the DT get away with a bit too much nonsense in his courtroom.

 

[Force Ten]

Right.

This is a silly strawman that Maline keeps running with. It's unlikely he used his phone graveside while digging. Rather the pings place him in the neighbourhood - just one more suspicious coincidence.

My belief is he made a slip up in his logic. He got back on to the main road where he felt safe, and turned his phone back on - after all what is suspicious about driving down the highway? He is visiting family right?

But he made the guilty mistake of forensically obscuring his phone only from the specific location rather than the general area.

Only once the bodies were discovered did his faulty thought process become obvious.

Why was he in that area with his phone off?

It's in this manner that he actually tied his phone to the sites by geo and chrono

This sort of mistake is common in staging because the perp works to a narrative that they are writing in their head.

Also to add, Merritt's phone pinged the same tower hours apart. It's hard to fathom this being a fluke. Especially when, according to Cathy (and his daughter), they spent the weekend arguing about Chase ignoring Joseph's call.

 

[Force Ten]

I don't think much has changed either other than the PT supporting their assertions. I have faith the jurors are as intelligent as Judge Smith and will see through the smoke and mirrors. I don't particularly care for the way the judge handles his courtroom, however, I do think he's a very smart man with a fantastic BS meter.

I like Smith. Probably a bit too liberal with how he runs things but I think he is on his game. I also believe these jurors to be very sharp and would not be surprised if every one of them, including alternates have decided he's guilty.

 

[Force Ten]

Lol! It's hard to believe the DT lost track of this key witness!

They seem to not have the ability needed to be able locate anyone. Is that a convenience or is that another coincidence they want the jury to believe? Lol

I'm beginning to think their own investigator probably can't even use his own navigational system in his vehicle. LOL!

Like Merritt, people in this case seem to inexplicably go MIA.

 

[QueenBofOB]

What about calling QuickBooks and impersonating JM in an attempt to delete the company ledger? Doesn't it make you go hmmm...

Yeah. And the miraculously LARGE bank balances, which all of the sudden appeared in dirt-broke CM's checking account, in the months following the family's disappearance. In spite of which, he flat out lied to investigators about, saying he "couldn't pay his rent, because they were missing." There's waaaaay too many things, that point to his involvement.