CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

[asyousay]

I don't know. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about faulty memory vs. lies. If Joey's own mother can't remember when she last talked to her own son before he disappeared, why would I expect Chase to remember what movie or tv he watched on the 4th? If Chase is lying because he changed his story as to what he watched on tv or didn't watch, is Susan lying about the last time she talked to Joey?

Joeys mum obviously had a fractured relationship with her son due to Summer it would seem so wasn’t on the phone 24/7 like Chase was.

It was Mike on the stand who said Summer and him a had a disagreement at a party and Susan then left that party with Mike and they didn’t speak much after that.

From everything I have read over the years and now heard Joey was closer with his dad and Mike with his mum which is why she can’t remember when she last spoke with her son as they wasn’t in constant contact. Joey was on the phone with his dad that morning.

MOO

 

[cobalt sky]

Joeys mum obviously had a fractured relationship with her son due to Summer it would seem so wasn’t on the phone 24/7 like Chase was.

It was Mike on the stand who said Summer and him a had a disagreement at a party and Susan then left that party with Mike and they didn’t speak much after that.

From everything I have read over the years and now heard Joey was closer with his dad and Mike with his mum which is why she can’t remember when she last spoke with her son as they wasn’t in constant contact. Joey was on the phone with his dad that morning.

MOO

How fractured could their relationship have been when only weeks earlier Joey and his whole family had been LIVING with her?

And that story about Mike and his mom leaving the party earlier after a confrontation between Summer and Mike's wife came from Chase. Chase is a liar, right? Has it been corroborated by anyone else? Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Susan would distance herself from her two beloved grandchildren just because Mike and Summer had a spat. I don't recall Susan testifying that she and Joey were estranged in any way.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about faulty memory vs. lies. If Joey's own mother can't remember when she last talked to her own son before he disappeared, why would I expect Chase to remember what movie or tv he watched on the 4th? If Chase is lying because he changed his story as to what he watched on tv or didn't watch, is Susan lying about the last time she talked to Joey?

But now I notice people are comparing what Susan can remember now, 9 years later, compared to what Chase could remember 13 days after the disappearance when he knew more or less immediately that Joey disappeared and Susan didn't find out for 5 days. That's comparing apples with oranges.

 

[citygirl]

But now I notice people are comparing what Susan can remember now, 9 years later, compared to what Chase could remember 13 days after the disappearance when he knew more or less immediately that Joey disappeared and Susan didn't find out for 5 days. That's comparing apples with oranges.

I find it more key to follow Chase's statements. He is the accused, not JM's family. Back in the day when the boards were on fire there was lots of gossip about the family's relationship. As with all families they had their differences.

 

[asyousay]

How fractured could their relationship have been when only weeks earlier Joey and his whole family had been LIVING with her?

And that story about Mike and his mom leaving the party earlier after a confrontation between Summer and Mike's wife came from Chase. Chase is a liar, right? Has it been corroborated by anyone else? Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Susan would distance herself from her two beloved grandchildren just because Mike and Summer had a spat. I don't recall Susan testifying that she and Joey were estranged in any way.

Mike has taken the stand and confirmed him and Summer had a falling out and he left a party. Well considering she couldn’t recall when she last spoke to her son that speaks volumes to me.

What does Chase have to do with the story when it was Mike who told the story when he was called as a witness and said they had a argument?

 

[JMarsh]

Evaluating credibility of witnesses follows the same broad principles.

Again this is where I prefer authored judgements because credibility findings must be articulated

Jurors are just a black box




This is why I tend to find testimony discussions on websleuths quite artificial

The court must assess both credibility and veracity. Not just pick at the bones.

We really went down the rabbit hole with this in the pistorius case before the SCA restored some sanity by pointing out just what a poor witness the accused was.

In any event we don't know if CM will testify but IMO the correct weight to give his statements is nil except where independently verifiable.

"The court must assess both credibility and veracity. Not just pick at the bones."

I agree.

California rules of evidence 780:

Except as otherwise provided by statute, the court or jury may consider in determining the credibility of a witness any matter that has any tendency in reason to prove or disprove the truthfulness of his testimony at the hearing, including but not limited to any of the following:

(a) His demeanor while testifying and the manner in which he testifies.

(b) The character of his testimony.

(c) The extent of his capacity to perceive, to recollect, or to communicate any matter about which he testifies.

(d) The extent of his opportunity to perceive any matter about which he testifies.

(e) His character for honesty or veracity or their opposites.

(f) The existence or nonexistence of a bias, interest, or other motive.

(g) A statement previously made by him that is consistent with his testimony at the hearing.

(h) A statement made by him that is inconsistent with any part of his testimony at the hearing.

(i) The existence or nonexistence of any fact testified to by him.

(j) His attitude toward the action in which he testifies or toward the giving of testimony.

(k) His admission of untruthfulness.

 

[JMarsh]

BBM, regarding your comment and respectfully snipped by me...

Snip

I'm not surprised that people don't remember much about what happened before the McStay's went missing, but their memory recall seems much better after they KNEW they were missing as it was a triggering event.

I would agree with you. But after watching Mike’s and Susan’s testimony, they didn’t remember much of anything, and they were very involved after the family went missing. It surprised me, actually. I thought they would have better recall especially since they often gave interviews to the media related to key events. JMO

Grief is devastating. Profound grief can alter a person irrevocably.

 

[JMarsh]

How fractured could their relationship have been when only weeks earlier Joey and his whole family had been LIVING with her?

And that story about Mike and his mom leaving the party earlier after a confrontation between Summer and Mike's wife came from Chase. Chase is a liar, right? Has it been corroborated by anyone else? Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Susan would distance herself from her two beloved grandchildren just because Mike and Summer had a spat. I don't recall Susan testifying that she and Joey were estranged in any way.

Joey's mom also testified that Summer had been calling her recently to get advice on paint, and Joey's mom helped Summer and Joey find a couple's counselor. This last wasn't testified to on the stand, but was mentioned in an interview with CNN.

 

[cobalt sky]

Mike has taken the stand and confirmed him and Summer had a falling out and he left a party. Well considering she couldn’t recall when she last spoke to her son that speaks volumes to me.

What does Chase have to do with the story when it was Mike who told the story when he was called as a witness and said they had a argument?

Chase also told this story.

And Susan originally DID recall when she last spoke to Joey, she said it was on the 4th and gave a detailed account of the call. Then that changed when she took the stand. Does that make her a liar too? Or did she simply forget?

 

[JMarsh]

Agreed .

The net result is CM has no credible alibi becuase we know Jarvis was trying to call him.

He finally called her at 9.30 on approx.

They were not together

I really hope Jarvis is called

But he might have confused which night. It's true though, for the night of the murders, it is unclear where he was and exactly what he was doing. But he might have just been running errands. He might have been gambling. I can't produce an alibi for that night either. There has to be more than lack of alibi, the DA has to tie Chase to the crime, at that house.

 

[cobalt sky]

But now I notice people are comparing what Susan can remember now, 9 years later, compared to what Chase could remember 13 days after the disappearance when he knew more or less immediately that Joey disappeared and Susan didn't find out for 5 days. That's comparing apples with oranges.

No, not comparing apples to oranges. Both of them originally told a story. Then they changed it.

 

[citygirl]

"The court must assess both credibility and veracity. Not just pick at the bones."

I agree.

California rules of evidence 780:

Except as otherwise provided by statute, the court or jury may consider in determining the credibility of a witness any matter that has any tendency in reason to prove or disprove the truthfulness of his testimony at the hearing, including but not limited to any of the following:

(a) His demeanor while testifying and the manner in which he testifies.

(b) The character of his testimony.

(c) The extent of his capacity to perceive, to recollect, or to communicate any matter about which he testifies.

(d) The extent of his opportunity to perceive any matter about which he testifies.

(e) His character for honesty or veracity or their opposites.

(f) The existence or nonexistence of a bias, interest, or other motive.

(g) A statement previously made by him that is consistent with his testimony at the hearing.

(h) A statement made by him that is inconsistent with any part of his testimony at the hearing.

(i) The existence or nonexistence of any fact testified to by him.

(j) His attitude toward the action in which he testifies or toward the giving of testimony.

(k) His admission of untruthfulness.

This is really good. To me it all comes down to common sense and observation and life experiences and a certain amount of wisdom. Really not that complicated.

 

[JMarsh]

No, not comparing apples to oranges. Both of them originally told a story. Then they changed it.

Memory is fallible. That's why eye-witness testimony is one of the primary causes of wrongful convictions. Everyone forgets things.

The real issue here is: Did Chase lie to conceal an act of murder? If he is mistaken or lied for any other reason, the issue is moot.

 

[asyousay]

Chase also told this story.

And Susan originally DID recall when she last spoke to Joey, she said it was on the 4th and gave a detailed account of the call. Then that changed when she took the stand. Does that make her a liar too? Or did she simply forget?

I can’t say what I really think of Susan and Mike as they are not on trial. But considering she cleaned up the crime scene even when told that wasn’t a good idea as she could be destroying evidence and she continued means I will never like them.

 

[cobalt sky]

Memory is fallible. That's why eye-witness testimony is one of the primary causes of wrongful convictions. Everyone forgets things.

The real issue here is: Did Chase lie to conceal an act of murder? If he is mistaken or lied for any other reason, the issue is moot.

Exactly.

 

[JMarsh]

I can’t say what I really think of Susan and Mike as they are not on trial. But considering she cleaned up the crime scene even when told that wasn’t a good idea as she could be destroying evidence and she continued means I will never like them.

It seems possible that no part of this crime occurred in that house. So that issue may turn out to be moot as well.

 

[missy1974]

Do we know what movies he rented? TIA!

no lol it was a bank statement showing 2 purchases at blockbuster. Here is my original post about it with the screenshot. If SD had done their job, maybe we would know exactly what movies they were.

CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

 

[citygirl]

I can’t say what I really think of Susan and Mike as they are not on trial. But considering she cleaned up the crime scene even when told that wasn’t a good idea as she could be destroying evidence and she continued means I will never like them.

I totally understand this. It was a huge mistake. But consider the circumstances. Who would ever dream that this family was brutally murdered ? I think Susan even stated that all along she thought/hoped they could still be alive. That she fell to her knees in disbelief when she learned they had been found in the desert.

 

[citygirl]

It seems possible that no part of this crime occurred in that house. So that issue may turn out to be moot as well.

But how do you account for evidence found in the grave that points to the murder at the house?

 

[JMarsh]

I have read a few posts... this morning, and before, that says that Chase didn't have a TV.... do you all mean physically having a TV or cable? Is there a link to this information?

In everything I have heard, and even in his LE interview, I think 'watching movies' was mentioned more than once. Don't have to have cable to watch movies, actually don't have to have a TV either if you have a computer or laptop. And if he couldn't watch movies, why would he go to Blockbuster? (see attachment purchases on 2/12 and 2/15 went through the bank on 2/16) 2/15 was President's Day, IIRC when CM asked CJ what they did on President's Day in the recorded LE interview, she said we watched movies.

Wow. Good find!!!!