CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

[Mica]

This is coming out of left field but maybe one of CM and CJ’s kids had a birthday during the time he was trying to get her to recall what they were doing? Some event that could entice her recall and back up his alibi?

This is sad if true. I envision CJ writing a book but if PM actually wrote a book it breaks my heart. Can anyone clarify whether he did indeed write something or is this the Rick Baker job that’s been previously referred to? TIA!

McStays, Taken Too Soon: A True Story
By Patrick McStay

 

[HelenK]

This is coming out of left field but maybe one of CM and CJ’s kids had a birthday during the time he was trying to get her to recall what they were doing? Some event that could entice her recall and back up his alibi?

This is sad if true. I envision CJ writing a book but if PM actually wrote a book it breaks my heart. Can anyone clarify whether he did indeed write something or is this the Rick Baker job that’s been previously referred to? TIA!

The book's title is McStays, Taken Too Soon: a True Story by Patrick McStay. You can find it on Amazon.

 

[Force Ten]

And Susan’s friend, James Spring, led the extended family to believe the family was alive in Mexico. No wonder they had hope. Dugal said Spring was a fraud.

Well, he also said that Spring was hired by Patrick which was wrong.

 

[Mica]

Well, he also said that Spring was hired by Patrick which was wrong.

This is true.

 

[Recidivist]

Yes, grief is certainly devastating. Agree. <modsnipped> I haven’t been back to the chat since. I don’t have much time to follow this case. And with all the delays and dark days in the courtroom in addition to the problems with the stream I pretty much gave up. I thank all here for all the updates and discussion related to the trial.

<modsnipped response to comments on chat> It had nothing to do with his perceived inability to recollect things.

 

[QueenBofOB]

I wasnt saying that Chase should have reported them missing. That wasnt the question I resounded to.

I was explaining why Chase would know he was actually missing, before any of the others would recognize it. And also why Chase should have been able to remember what was happening on the 4th, as opposed to other family members, who had no contact with Joey that day. JMO

Here is the post I was replying to:

So if it's a triggering event, and it's the reason why Chase should recall what he did that night, why can't the same be said for his family?

Yes and the fact that it was the last time they met for lunch, should've helped jog his memory.

 

[QueenBofOB]

This is coming out of left field but maybe one of CM and CJ’s kids had a birthday during the time he was trying to get her to recall what they were doing? Some event that could entice her recall and back up his alibi?

This is sad if true. I envision CJ writing a book but if PM actually wrote a book it breaks my heart. Can anyone clarify whether he did indeed write something or is this the Rick Baker job that’s been previously referred to? TIA!

It is on Amazon free, if you have Prime thru Kindle. I just started reading it. It's called McSTAYS TAKEN TOO SOON: A TRUE STORY.

 

[JMarsh]

This is coming out of left field but maybe one of CM and CJ’s kids had a birthday during the time he was trying to get her to recall what they were doing? Some event that could entice her recall and back up his alibi?

This is sad if true. I envision CJ writing a book but if PM actually wrote a book it breaks my heart. Can anyone clarify whether he did indeed write something or is this the Rick Baker job that’s been previously referred to? TIA!

Patrick did write a book and it was very good.

 

[JMarsh]

And Susan’s friend, James Spring, led the extended family to believe the family was alive in Mexico. No wonder they had hope. Dugal said Spring was a fraud.

The James Spring thing is a little confusing, because on the stand, Dugal stated that Patrick McStay hired Spring.

 

[JMarsh]

I don’t know. Supposedly one being made to pay the costs for the defense team. At least that’s what was said in the chat that day. It was all news to me.

I posted the name of a documentary company the other day that I found on the court portal.

Interesting.

 

[JMarsh]

I believe Katy put up the post showing many gambling addicts have committed murder, because another poster said being addicted to gambling, doesnt make them into being a murderer.

I see many cases on the crime channels where the suspects were gambling addicts, and being one was part of the motive for them carrying out their murders.

Just yesterday I saw one, about this same kind of murderer. The murderer went to the victim wanting a 250K loan in order to pay his gambling debts.

The victim was known to be his very best friend. The victim refused to loan him the money, knowing he would just go on to rack up more gambling debts, so when the best friend refused, the suspect killed him.

He then stole the man's coin collection, and sold them as if they were his.

So he received cash for the stolen property after he had murdered his best friend.

Once getting money from the stolen property belonging to the man he had just murdered....he then went on to spend it on gambling at the casinos.

Imo

I saw that episode too. ID. That is an interesting case.

 

[JMarsh]

The BTK Killer, who was an older gentleman, ALSO killed a family of 4 with 2 kids. So, a single person can kill a family w/o any help. Just sayin.

Yes they can. And a random killer can also be responsible.

 

[JMarsh]

Chase and Joey had only known each other a couple years, they were friends and business associates. Not blood. Yes they worked closely together and talked on the phone every day. But most people in the same situation as Chase would not be calling LE if they couldn't get in touch with a business associate for a couple days, especially over a weekend, and especially knowing that the family had several projects going on and two active little boys that would likely keep him busy.

Once Chase began to feel that something was wrong, he went to Joey's family instead of calling LE himself. There could be numerous reasons for this. One, he had warrants. Two, we don't know what things Joey may have told Chase, for example Chase maybe had remembered that Joey was worried about CPS and took off for a while, and didn't want to bring LE into the picture right away until hopefully hearing back from Joey. Three, there could have been other reasons why Chase would not want to bring LE into the picture right away that would not be appropriate for me to speculate about here so I'm not going to. And four, the most likely reason, is that he most likely just didn't feel it was his place to contact LE, and felt more comfortable letting Joey's family make that decision.

He went directly to Susan's house to tell her about his concern about the family. He didn't contact LE at that time because Joey's family didn't ask him to. Instead, they asked him to monitor the movement of dog bowls. It is absurd to criticize Chase for not calling LE right away when Joey's own blood didn't call them either! Once Joey's family was notified, the onus was on them as to how to handle the situation. The number of times they talked on the phone during the week is imo completely irrelevant.

Those are all really important points. And though the CPS issue has been discarded as related to the murders, at the time, it was understandable that it would be given consideration.

 

[missy1974]

<modsnipped>

@Mica can I bother you for the link to the court portal? Please I was going to search your posts but couldn't lol

 

[katydid23]

The post was in reply to mine inquiring about a post by Alf stating that Joey was a crook who was stealing from people, and I asked for links supporting that claim. Those links all dealt with Merritt, not Joey.

Sorry. I was mistakenly thinking you were looking for CM's bad reviews. I have never seen any bad reviews for Joey McStay's business.

 

[katydid23]

Yes they can. And a random killer can also be responsible.

Of course they can. But a random killer is not going to sit down at the computer and create and delete a check for 'chase merritt' the night of the 4th.
And I cannot think of one reason on Earth that Joey would have done so.

And I don't believe a random killer would have driven the family car to the border, especially so many days after the murder.

 

[MsFacetious]

I enjoy your posts. You explain the law very clearly.
One question? If CJ is called by the prosecution is she automatically classified as a hostile witness? How does that work?

Well, if you call the witness you generally need to be nice to them. It's on cross exam when you would impeach or treat as hostile, generally. Neither side would want to start out being hostile towards their own witness.

However, if she wasn't cooperative they could get her classified as hostile. I would presume they would wait until she was antagonizing the prosecutor or really hurting their case. This would also apply if the defense called her.

We really have NO idea what her position is. I would hope that she is just coming in to tell the truth, without taking a side. That is how I prefer witnesses. I just tell them to tell the truth. The defense calling you doesn't mean you are "their witness". You never know who each witness will end up helping once they are up there.

No, she can't be truly neutral... but she CAN have the goal of telling the truth and justice being served. That IS possible even when your children's father is the one on trial. I've absolutely seen it.

Chase also told this story.

And Susan originally DID recall when she last spoke to Joey, she said it was on the 4th and gave a detailed account of the call. Then that changed when she took the stand. Does that make her a liar too? Or did she simply forget?

Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong. I know Michael was wrong about the phone call he received informing him Joey was missing. He thought it was the 9th and it was actually the 10th.

Wasn't that also the case with Susan? I swear she thought she talked to Joey on the 4th but it was actually another day? So when shown her phone records she realized that she had the day wrong?

I wish that it was easier to search for the answer but I KNOW one of you will remember for sure.

The BTK Killer, who was an older gentleman, ALSO killed a family of 4 with 2 kids. So, a single person can kill a family w/o any help. Just sayin.

To be fair, Rader was much younger when he killed the Otero family. He was 2 months from his 29th birthday. He wasn't arrested for 31 years after that mass murder so he was an older gentleman when he was caught.

Merritt would have been 52 I believe.

And I think it's helping him get to trial. I do wonder why there isn't some type of victim's fund to make certain that immediate family can be present for the full trial. Especially in a case that involves murder.

I don't know how ANYONE could afford to travel and live somewhere else for 6 months. I mean that is just astronomical. All while I presume paying expenses for where you normally live! Imagine moving out of your house into another state for 6 months, while intending to return. I mean it's incomprehensible.

"Riding the waves in heaven". I didn't know what the inscription on the McStay family headstone said until I enlarged it just now.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/120355678/joseph-mateo_martelli-mcstay

Notice the little stone with the happy face on it. I wonder if one of the family members made it.

I did not either. I also never realized that their date of death is listed as February 4, 2010. You don't generally see that with a murder where the body isn't found for years. It's often the date that the body was recovered.

I have always preferred to use the actual date of death but understand that some people use what's on the death certificate. I wonder who made that call in this case? I probably wouldn't have been confident it was the 4th rather than the 5th or 6th. Regardless of lack of contact. Though I would want to believe it was quick.

 

[mrjitty]

As to the statement above, that 'some people have already formed their opinions and can't see both sides...'

Some people are looking at everything AS A WHOLE.

Others are taking it piece by piece, and coming up with alternate , although unlikely, explanations for those same circumstances.

One can always find those outlier explanations. Hey Maybe Joey decided inexplicably to start writing checks from an account he never wrote them from before, and maybe he told Chase to start writing himself checks and told him to backdate and delete them, as a new type of accounting practice. And Joey said. yah, sign my name, no problem.

And maybe Chase said he saw joeys 8:28 pm call that night, and didnt pick up because he talked to Joey so many times that day already, but then when we find out that call couldn't have been seen by Chase, so we say 'hey, he just misspoke, and he didnt remember,' he was thinking of the wrong night, he didnt lie.

We can do that to explain and justify EVERY SINGLE piece of circumstantial evidence, and then say Chase is innocent. But is it accurate?

When I look at the whole big picture, it is harder to explain away those circumstantial issues.

When I look at those checks that were backdated to the 4th, deleted and then CASHED by Chase, it looks damning if I have other pieces of information in mind. Like Chase telling LE in an early interview that Joey gave him those checks. And now we know that's not true.

This is what did my head in on Pistorius.

So many months and even years were spent micro-justifying ever bizarre aspect of the accused's version.

Then finally we got to the SCA and Justice Leach cut through all the nonsense like a breath of fresh air when he simply noted the overall implausibility of the accused version

[17]
With ample justification, the court found the accused to have been ‘a very poor witness’. His version varied substantially. At the outset he stated that he had fired the four shots ‘before I knew it’ and at a time when he was not sure if there was somebody in the toilet. This soon changed to a version that he had fired as he believed that whoever was in the toilet was going to come out to attack him. He later changed this to say that he had never intended to shoot at all; that he had not fired at the door on purpose and that he had not wanted to shoot at any intruder coming out of the toilet. In the light of these contradictions, one really does not know what his explanation is for having fired the fatal shots, an issue to which I shall revert in due course. There were other inherent improbabilities in his version, some of which were mentioned by the trial court in its judgment.

I feel like we have a similar situation here, with a number of improbabilities and implausible explanations which then turn out to be incorrect.

The simple fact is, in his pre-trial statements, the accused gave no plausible account of where he was.

It's not the Court's job to speculate about whether he was confused. The point is, he simply did not give an accurate account of where he was - therefore there is no reliable evidence of an alibi. The state on the other hand have reliable evidence that

a) he was not with Jarvis (she was calling him repeatedly)
b) he did not call her back until 9.30pm
c) his phone was turned off during the key hours

Thus the evidential onus is on the defence now to produce some reliable Alibi evidence. If they cannot - that tells you something important about the case IMO.

Others have already highlighted further issues in his statements (the cheques, great memory up until 5.30pm etc).

Safe to say, given his additional reputation as conman and thief, who was dodging parole violations, not to mention new further evidence of fraud, there is simply no sound basis to trust what Chase says, unless it is externally corroborated

 

[missy1974]

Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong. I know Michael was wrong about the phone call he received informing him Joey was missing. He thought it was the 9th and it was actually the 10th.

Wasn't that also the case with Susan? I swear she thought she talked to Joey on the 4th but it was actually another day? So when shown her phone records she realized that she had the day wrong?

I wish that it was easier to search for the answer but I KNOW one of you will remember for sure.

I recall it as he had pulled over and called her or pulled over while he was talking to her. But I did find this.


Exclusive interview: Mothers of McStays determined to find family - *Inquiry into Mexican travel discovered *FBI resources called in *Joseph McStay hadn't been well for months

Blake has an added concern. She said her son hadn’t been feeling well for a few months before the family disappeared.

“My son had been sick since last August and he’s normally a very healthy person,” said Blake. “He’s an excellent surfer and soccer player. I even went to the hospital with him to try and see what was wrong; we thought maybe it was stress.”

Blake described Joseph’s symptoms as something similar to vertigo and said he complained of feeling “woozy.”

“When I last talked to my son, on February 4, he said he still didn’t feel good,” said Blake, adding that she has provided the Sheriff’s Dept with information she had on her son’s recent healthcare visits.

 

[mrjitty]

No, I was talking about notes from a calendar etc, to remind him where he was that night. He was going there to speak to detectives.

I am stopping to think---and if my boss was missing, and I was telling people I was the last person he saw, I'd expect the detectives would want an alibi from me. Even if I was innocent, I'd be expected to show some evidence of that because of other things I had already said.

Chase had initially told LE that the reason for the lunch meeting was for Joey to give Chase some checks dated Feb 4th. Later on we find out those checks were backdated from the 5th, and then deleted. Very shady.

Again this is where I find an air of unreality

A family of 4 are missing, perhaps murdered. All key players will be asked to account for their whereabouts, and detail last time they saw the McStays.

So yes witnesses make mistakes and there is lots of confusion - but these things do get broadly ironed out - e.g by reference to phone logs, diaries etc.

What is frankly odd, is the accused's inability to explain where the hell he was.

Do we really think the other McStay family members, despite their errors of recollection, were unable to account for their whereabouts at murder time?