CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[Runswithdogs]

Auntie may have satisfied your curiosity already. But my use of "RS&BBM" = respectfully snipped and bolded by me... a combo acronym.



Well... I recall reading that factoid more than once in MSM. But now cannot recall where or when. I will poke around when I have better technology at hand than I do now. In the meantime I welcome others to chime in if they have a ready source.

Again thank you!

I recall reading from some MSM source that the phone was found in his “right front pocket” - I took that to mean pants pocket, but now that I think about it, I might not have clarified shirt v pants, so I just assumed pants.
Was the AllTrails data regarding his hike searches (somewhere I thought it was posted he had “researched the trail that day before”) accessed from their phone search or from publicly available information on AllTrails?
I have the app but have only ever used it to scout for local hikes when I travel & not as a sharing or check list feature, I didn’t even realize people used it that way! (Having big hairy, sometimes scary dogs.. I’m generally just looking for deserted FS roads to explore on). I have found many of their hike descriptions to be inaccurate in length (notably the hikes being LONGER than posted… I’ve turned back from several lake hikes due to that).

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

I seem to recall early in the threads someone posted a photo of the gate at the top of the S-L trail. Or maybe it was in an article? If anyone has that at hand could you repost it please?

Where my mind is going is this: if there is a gate, perhaps Ellen's intention on going ahead (or trying to) without taking JG's phone, was she was intending to try to open the gate and drive the truck down the trail to where JG/baby/dog were?

I don't know if the trail is wide enough for that but even if she drove half-on, half-off, not anything you'd normally do but in an emergency...

Of course the gate would probably be locked, but we don't know whether she knew that or not.

Also of course, assuming the family set off down the HC trail (ie hiked the loop rather than down-and-back), they may not have even seen the gate (they parked farther up at the Y with the other trail IIRC).

On the other hand since they live nearby they may very well have seen the gate before in their explorations.

Just a thought about her possible intent. MOO

This idea was proposed early on in the discussion, but someone said, the trail is too narrow for a truck to get very far, and has steep drop-offs along the way. And a blogpost that was linked, written by a woman who'd started down the trail with a friend and friend's dog, noted that even by foot, the trail was very uneven and steep, difficult to navigate even by fairly experienced hikers. The dog owner came to be worried about the heat, and their inadequate water supply, and made them turn around and quit the hike.

I don't know if at this point in the discussion (thread #4) we need to re-post some of these info sources?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

This idea was proposed early on in the discussion, but someone said, the trail is too narrow for a truck to get very far, and has steep drop-offs along the way. And a blogpost that was linked, written by a woman who'd started down the trail with a friend and friend's dog, noted that even by foot, the trail was very uneven and steep, difficult to navigate even by fairly experienced hikers. The dog owner came to be worried about the heat, and their inadequate water supply, and made them turn around and quit the hike.

I don't know if at this point in the discussion (thread #4) we need to re-post some of these info sources?

Ah thanks. I read that blog post but missed or forgot those contextual details about the navigability of the trail. My next best guess is that EC intended to go for help, either flagging someone down along the way or driving home to get her own phone. It makes the chance that JG's phone was disabled due to heat seem more likely as well. MOO

 

[arrogantcat]

Slightly off topic, but with all this talk of heat stroke I wanted to mention a couple of things I use to help me tolerate heat better! I have a neurological condition (not a TBI though) that means I suffer from heat intolerance in general.

My 4 top items are ‘cooling towels’, insulated water bottles by Simple Modern, aerosol “cooling sprays” and a neck fan.

The cooling towels (google them, very affordable) work unlimited times - you just wave them around a bit and then they feel icy on your skin. Paired with a cooling water spray and the fan, I find i can lower my temperature by focussing on points where blood runs closest to the skin.
The water bottles are the best I’ve found, and can keep ice in water for 24 hours.

Hopefully not too off topic - seeing as this thread has raised awareness for so many of us about the dangers of heat, I thought it worth sharing a few simple additions of kit that might make a difference and buy someone more time in a crisis.

 

[jonjon747]

I'm beginning to sense that this whole thing is just another mumbo jumbo becoming like another one of those unsolved mysteries.

LE would've known by now how far the couple was hiking that day by simply examining the shoes they were wearing.

If they were near the water or muddy area, the bottom of their shoes would contain all the clues to where they were hiking.

I recall someone here mentioning about baby's diapers as a traceable piece of their hiking route.
There are multiples of traceable elements that LE could examine to first rule out the whole loop hiking assumption of the savage-lund trail.

 

[armchairagatha]

I'm beginning to sense that this whole thing is just another mumbo jumbo becoming like another one of those unsolved mysteries.

LE would've known by now how far the couple was hiking that day by simply examining the shoes they were wearing.

If they were near the water or muddy area, the bottom of their shoes would contain all the clues to where they were hiking.

I recall someone here mentioning about baby's diapers as a traceable piece of their hiking route.
There are multiples of traceable elements that LE could examine to first rule out the whole loop hiking assumption of the savage-lund trail.

I get the sense that LE is being very cautious here. They are using the process of elimination to arrive at the COD as they don't seem to have found a "smoking gun" so far. So far they have only ruled out the obvious (murder by sharp weapons or guns/blunt weapons, toxic gases). They are waiting on toxicology results presumably to rule out toxic algae or other poisons. They are still looking into the lightning angle - maybe there is a way to precisely pinpoint if there was a ground lightning strike near the spot they were found that day. If none of these pan out, they may settle on the obvious - heat stroke. I am surprised that in other cases (Kreycik, Death Valley victims etc) heat stroke was quickly arrived at as the COD but in this case, LE seem to be very reluctant to list that as one of the top possibilities for COD. They haven't released any information that would rule that out as COD.

 

[NSamuelle]

Slightly off topic, but with all this talk of heat stroke I wanted to mention a couple of things I use to help me tolerate heat better! I have a neurological condition (not a TBI though) that means I suffer from heat intolerance in general.

My 4 top items are ‘cooling towels’, insulated water bottles by Simple Modern, aerosol “cooling sprays” and a neck fan.

The cooling towels (google them, very affordable) work unlimited times - you just wave them around a bit and then they feel icy on your skin. Paired with a cooling water spray and the fan, I find i can lower my temperature by focussing on points where blood runs closest to the skin.
The water bottles are the best I’ve found, and can keep ice in water for 24 hours.

Hopefully not too off topic - seeing as this thread has raised awareness for so many of us about the dangers of heat, I thought it worth sharing a few simple additions of kit that might make a difference and buy someone more time in a crisis.

This is great info - I would add instant ice packs to the list (technically not “ice,” you crush a pouch inside the pack and it combines with the contents to create cold that mimics ice). Very useful for back of neck, armpit, groin if you need to lower core temp. About $1-2 each.

 

[carbuff]

Wrapping a damp kerchief around your neck or over your head is also good for less drastic cooling. You can squirt more water on it as it dries out.

 

[FlowergirlinWard1]

JMO, but I have a notion that Officials ruled out algae/poisons, because they should’ve received back toxicology results by now, and it may have turned up negative for all 4, including their personal water source. Like the other poster said, they’re looking at whether lightening strikes in the area, or perhaps some form of underground gas pockets escaping played a role, before they can come to the conclusion of heat exposure. JMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Just chiming in to say that heat stroke is often a diagnosis of exclusion. It kills people the same way a high fever does (often by causing interruptions in the body's electrical current, which can take many forms - not all of them leaving evidence in body tissues).

I need to go back and read the earlier threads - so much good information here. I find it unlikely that heat affected both phones. I live in a hot place and people's phones work even when left in a hot car - have never heard of one not working, but will start asking people more.

Oh - and those temperatures you all have been posting for El Portal are in the shade!!

So if this family did leave in the morning, by noon, it might have been 115-120 in the full sun (as you all know, almost no shade on that trail).

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Wrapping a damp kerchief around your neck or over your head is also good for less drastic cooling. You can squirt more water on it as it dries out.

I also like to keep the direct sun off my arms, so my strategy (for yardwork at home -- I don't hike much anymore but this would work as long as water is abundant) -- is to wear a lightweight long sleeved shirt over a t-shirt or tank top -- then as needed I take off the overshirt, saturate in water, wring it out, and put it back on.

Oh, there is also no humidity where I am, otherwise this wouldn't be a good idea at all.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

When I am out in my yard with the ipad (I use it with bluetooth headphones to listen to audiobooks), if the ipad is in a case or otherwise blocked from direct sun, I've not had a problem (though I haven't been out in 109*F). But even in 80-ish temps if it's in direct sun, it will shut down and need to cool off (it's a dark color so heats up fast)

 

[Newsjunkiejen]

Just chiming in to say that heat stroke is often a diagnosis of exclusion. It kills people the same way a high fever does (often by causing interruptions in the body's electrical current, which can take many forms - not all of them leaving evidence in body tissues).

I need to go back and read the earlier threads - so much good information here. I find it unlikely that heat affected both phones. I live in a hot place and people's phones work even when left in a hot car - have never heard of one not working, but will start asking people more.

Oh - and those temperatures you all have been posting for El Portal are in the shade!!

So if this family did leave in the morning, by noon, it might have been 115-120 in the full sun (as you all know, almost no shade on that trail).

Wowser, now those truly are killer temperatures. For me in snowy ol' England that's almost unbearable to even think about!

In a strange way, I wonder if the family will feel they have any closure if a COD of heatstroke is determined but only because everything else has been ruled out as an alternative?

So there may not be strong evidence to suggest heatstroke as far as an initial conclusion for COD, but.. "Well, it's not X, and it can't be Y, and the tests have shown it's definitely not Z, therefore that only leaves heatstroke".

I understand the process of elimination technique, but it sometimes doesn't always feel as definitive and conclusive as maybe it should.

I suppose for the family, the 'unequivocals' are maybe not important. Any room for doubt or ambiguity regarding the actual COD would surely be superceded by the knowledge that J&E, their baby, and the dog didn't suffer, and I really hope that is the case.

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you for posting this. I had a heat stroke when I was 16. I grew up in the hot, humid south and I am proof that no matter how acclimated you may be, heat can and does kill.
By the time I realized that I needed to get out of the heat, it was too late. I could not move. I sat down , just like JG. There was a cold water shower ( It was at a beach) literally within my reach but I could not crawl, lift an arm, nothing. Never had I been so weak and helpless. I would have died had someone not noticed me and given me help. They packed me in ice while waiting for the EMT's. It took ES 15 minutes to get there. My temperature after being packed in ice for 15 minutes was 105F. I have no idea what it was before the ice.
There isn't one doubt in my mind that this is heat stroke and nothing else. Unless you have experienced it or have seen someone else stricken, you just can not imagine how quickly it kills. It incapacitates you before realize you are in danger. Your mind doesn't register things and you are drained of energy.
If no ice , cold water, air conditioning, or emergency services are immediately available, death will occur within 30 minutes.
It has been difficult for me to map the Savage Lundy Trail and look at the hot, desolate, dystopian terrain and imagine the hellish heat that day.
We will never know why they made the decision to hike that trail in the extreme heat with a baby and a dog.
I just hope they went quickly.
Just want to add that I am now extremely heat sensitive. I also have MS and most people with MS are heat sensitive as well. One thing I have felt for the last two years is that the sun, heat, they are different. Hotter, deadly now. The sun doesn't feel the same, it almost feels alien. It truly frightens me as I live in the hot, very humid south. I have a pathological fear of the heat now. Never do I want to experience the hell of my brain cooking inside my head again.

I totally agree with you. Both my daughter and I have had heat stroke. And, one of the symptoms of it (just before things go really south) is euphoria. "Desert rats" know this and play with it. My temp was 105 when we realized what was going on (my ex-husband noticed, he is a physician, and part of what he noticed was that my demeanor was way way off - he made me drink cool not cold water first, and got me to air conditioning). My daughter passed out, but fortunately was near A/C and her husband got her cooled down (Lake Havasu).

I think people just pass out. My daughter was in the midst of going inside for a cold beer when she hit the deck - the main problem was worry about a concussion.

MS people in AZ have to wear those cooling jackets if they go anywhere!

I think these people were really inexperienced with heat, and had had "pleasant" experiences in heat which they confused with "adaptation." There's no "adapting" to high temps, but people still think that way. The body will eventually be the same temp as the outer environment, once temps outside are about 115 (for people with MS and certain other conditions - including fibromyalgia, the recommended high temps are much lower).

For. sure. your mind doesn't register things. Despite noticing my own weird thought processes (I was driving in a car without A/C through the Mojave - and my ex-husband had inadvertently taken the water with him when we switched cars/drivers), I did not think of heat stroke. I thought I was fine. And it was hellish. We had to go to a motel to get me cooled down and I remembering looking outside and seeing a big fire in the distance, just to top it off.

We cannot take our dogs to the foothill/Mariposa area except in late Fall/Winter/Spring (where we too thought about buying property for a long time - but the heat, the ticks, the fires and the high number of transients...made us rethink that). We had a particularly hot summer up there this year, it won't cool down significantly until early October, IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Wowser, now those truly are killer temperatures. For me in snowy ol' England that's almost unbearable to even think about!

In a strange way, I wonder if the family will feel they have any closure if a COD of heatstroke is determined but only because everything else has been ruled out as an alternative?

So there may not be strong evidence to suggest heatstroke as far as an initial conclusion for COD, but.. "Well, it's not X, and it can't be Y, and the tests have shown it's definitely not Z, therefore that only leaves heatstroke".

I understand the process of elimination technique, but it sometimes doesn't always feel as definitive and conclusive as maybe it should.

I suppose for the family, the 'unequivocals' are maybe not important. Any room for doubt or ambiguity regarding the actual COD would surely be superceded by the knowledge that J&E, their baby, and the dog didn't suffer, and I really hope that is the case.

The weird thing here, to me, is that apparently all four bodies were found together (I think). That would confuse the medical examiner. You'd think that one would go down (but then, another one would then administer first aid). Surely they were trying to cool the baby. I hope, I hope. If they suddenly discovered that the baby was unconscious and not just sleeping, as they had thought, then what would they do? Would they realize it was heat? I think so. So what then? Their water container would have been out of the pack or off their back, right?

Wouldn't one of them attempt to run the baby to the safety of the air-conditioned car? If the baby was already very ill, perhaps they stopped to administer whatever first aid they could, and each one rapidly. passed out in succession (sorry for the grim speculation, but usually the ME would expect to find heat stroke victims spaced out - as each adult would continue trying to move toward shade/safety, taking the baby...)

 

[armchairagatha]

I can't help thinking that they possibly went down the wrong trail. They thought it was the shorter one but ended up on the longer, brutal one. I think I read somewhere there was an easier trail with the same name or something. And possibly then, they didn't realize their mistake until it was too late. Somehow an honest mistake like that seems more palatable than a gross misjudgment of deliberately trying to do that brutal 7.5 or 8 mile trail under those hot conditions with a baby and dog in tow. RIP.

 

[spangled]

It's a terrible and tragic story, whatever has happened to them. So much ahead of them in life and the pain must be almost incomprehensible to the family.

I have learnt a lot from this thread that I am grateful for. I realise I have taken some huge risks in my life with regard to heat without having any understanding at all of the dangers on the body. Thank you everyone for the input and I hope the family has some answers and peace soon.

 

[NSamuelle]

The weird thing here, to me, is that apparently all four bodies were found together (I think). That would confuse the medical examiner. You'd think that one would go down (but then, another one would then administer first aid). Surely they were trying to cool the baby. I hope, I hope. If they suddenly discovered that the baby was unconscious and not just sleeping, as they had thought, then what would they do? Would they realize it was heat? I think so. So what then? Their water container would have been out of the pack or off their back, right?

Wouldn't one of them attempt to run the baby to the safety of the air-conditioned car? If the baby was already very ill, perhaps they stopped to administer whatever first aid they could, and each one rapidly. passed out in succession (sorry for the grim speculation, but usually the ME would expect to find heat stroke victims spaced out - as each adult would continue trying to move toward shade/safety, taking the baby...)

This was also my issue with the heatstroke theory, and others here have raised the same confusion - it wouldn’t incapacitate both adults equally and at the same time, such that one of them couldn’t act and make more progress towards getting them out of the situation or at least getting the baby to safety. Ellen was only about 15 seconds (walking) away from them, not a significant distance.

It’s also confusing that the baby was still in the carrier. If the adults were feeling the effects of heat stroke, she certainly would be, too, as she was more vulnerable. Why not take her out to try to cool her? If she had already passed, I think of one them would have been holding her. Leaving her in a kangaroo bag makes me assume that 1) she was alive and 2) they weren’t attempting to cool her, or they would’ve taken her out and poured water on her clothing. Ellen was trained in first aid and worked as a Red Cross instructor, so she would’ve known what to do. I know the likely answer here is “they were so overcome by heat that they were incapable of rational thought and action” - but at the same time?

 

[wary]

The weird thing here, to me, is that apparently all four bodies were found together (I think). That would confuse the medical examiner. You'd think that one would go down (but then, another one would then administer first aid). Surely they were trying to cool the baby. I hope, I hope. If they suddenly discovered that the baby was unconscious and not just sleeping, as they had thought, then what would they do? Would they realize it was heat? I think so. So what then? Their water container would have been out of the pack or off their back, right?

Wouldn't one of them attempt to run the baby to the safety of the air-conditioned car? If the baby was already very ill, perhaps they stopped to administer whatever first aid they could, and each one rapidly. passed out in succession (sorry for the grim speculation, but usually the ME would expect to find heat stroke victims spaced out - as each adult would continue trying to move toward shade/safety, taking the baby...)

MOO

I have a tentative theory, which I’ll abandon in an instant if any more evidence shows up.

Let’s suppose that Jonathon, carrying the baby, feels the effect of heat and exertion the most. They decide that he’ll sit down, rest and recover, and then they’ll go on. Naively, they don’t realize that he has heat stroke, and that just resting and drinking water isn’t enough.

The dog is on a leash, fastened to Jonathon somehow. (We have not heard for certain that the dog was on a leash, although one report implied it. There are certainly good reasons for having your dog on a leash—like, what if you do meet up with a rattlesnake?)

So, Ellen stays with her family, and becomes more and more overcome by the heat. (Even when they first stop to rest, she might well not be thinking as clearly as she normally would, again, from the heat.) Finally, she realizes that the only chance for their survival is for her to get help. She might not realize that Jonathon is getting worse, rather than better, until he becomes unconscious. (As for her getting help, I don’t think we’ve heard anything about where the car keys were, or where her phone was. Maybe she left it in the car, even.)

So, why she doesn’t take her baby? Maybe, in a moment of coherence, she realizes that with the added weight she would have no chance of getting help—and the baby’s survival depends on her getting help.

So, she starts off to get help. The added exertion of struggling up that hill pushes her over the edge. She doesn’t get far. The baby and dog, completely helpless, both die.

This is entirely my speculation. I think it’s consistent with what we do know, and it avoids the question of: “how could they all die at once?” The answer would be: they didn’t.

MOO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Just chiming in to say that heat stroke is often a diagnosis of exclusion. It kills people the same way a high fever does (often by causing interruptions in the body's electrical current, which can take many forms - not all of them leaving evidence in body tissues).

I need to go back and read the earlier threads - so much good information here. I find it unlikely that heat affected both phones. I live in a hot place and people's phones work even when left in a hot car - have never heard of one not working, but will start asking people more.

Oh - and those temperatures you all have been posting for El Portal are in the shade!!

So if this family did leave in the morning, by noon, it might have been 115-120 in the full sun (as you all know, almost no shade on that trail).

Just an anecdote, but it has happened to me when playing music on my iPhone on a warm day. (32-35°C)

From Apple:
“Use iOS devices where the ambient temperature is between 0º and 35º C (32º to 95º F). Low- or high-temperature conditions might cause the device to change its behavior to regulate its temperature. Using an iOS device in very cold conditions outside of its operating range might temporarily shorten battery life and could cause the device to turn off. Battery life will return to normal when you bring the device back to higher ambient temperatures. Using an iOS device in very hot conditions can permanently shorten battery life.

Store the device where the temperature is between -20º and 45º C (-4º to 113º F). Don’t leave the device in your car, because temperatures in parked cars can exceed this range.”
Keeping iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch within acceptable operating temperatures

It gave me a temperature warning with an ‘emergency’ call option, but then bricked. It had to cool down before powering up.

*I don’t know what type of phone the Gerrish family had, this may not apply to them.