CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[PerplexedPatty]

[

Forensic resources are $$$ so it is not surprising that other labs are involved. The sheriff also commented that he had never seen a case like this so I think that has driven a lot of forensic interest. NMR machines can be over $100K, so it’s a great thing that other agencies are involved but also a bit puzzling that no further exclusionary results have been released (I.e., “we have confirmed that it was not XYZ”). They did that early in the investigation and ruled out poisonous gases like CO, but that was weeks ago.

I just found this which is sort of interesting regarding HAB
Advancing science: New clinical tests for detection of cyanotoxins

 

[Auntie Cipation]

To me, the Occam's Razor option is this: They intended to go out walking/hiking somewhere near where they parked, but did not intend to be out long. Maybe an hour or two in the morning, say 8-10am.

Something unanticipated happened that kept them out beyond the tolerances of heat that day.

One idea could be that the dog ran off and they went searching, not realizing when they crossed the threshold into life-and-death

Another "what went wrong" might have been a lost set of car keys along the trail that they had to backtrack and search for.

These are just a few examples, not a complete list of what might have happened.

Now maybe rather than an easy morning walk, they were really going to push the limits that day and try to hike several miles before the heat. In that case it would take only a minor problem to delay them long enough for heat to take its toll. Maybe someone had a headache and couldn't walk at normal speed. Maybe someone dropped a water bottle and it rolled far downhill. Again, just example ideas.

As a separate possibility, two people at different earlier points in the thread brought in quite compelling evidence that there was a thunderstorm in the area that afternoon. While I personally think the family was already in trouble if they were still out on the trail in the afternoon, ground lightning does seem a low but not-zero possibility.

I think they simply pushed themselves too close to the safety buffer boundary, to where they were vulnerable to something minor causing enough delay that the heat got them. A sad cascade of consequences.

MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Meant to add, that LE has info (such as footprints on the trail, car keys found or not found with them, etc) that could eliminate some of my example possibilities or perhaps that might add others to the list. We just aren't [yet] privy to what LE knows.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

I’m more of the Occam’s Broom person.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Remember that the bodies were not retrieved until roughly 48 hours after death, during a heat wave. There is a lot about the conditions of their internal organs that might not have been able to be clearly identified.

Also, as was just mentioned, even if MOF *was* evident, that doesn't necessarily narrow the COD to heatstroke, so there still wouldn't be definitive information released just based on that. I always assume LE knows more than is publicly released. MOO

It may have been 72 hours+, before the bodies were removed and additional time until they were transported for autopsy. They were found on Tuesday but not removed from the trail until Wednesday and the high heat continued all those days. they started the hike Sunday at 8am and the bodies were not removed until Wed, late morning. They were in direct sun and extreme heat all that time. Prior threads contained links to articles suggesting that that elapsed time and the conditions may impact both autopsy findings and tox results. MOO, the heat and steep change in elevation on the SL trail were significant factors.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Oh, I’ve followed cases in which bodies have been exposed to far worse elements for much longer. Bodies are found in swamps, landfills, wooded areas, oceans, lakes, buildings and many have been where located months or longer. Few rarely have NO CoD. Jmo

A finding has not been released re: COD YET.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

And at any point they could have turned around. But you’re spot on, imo. Ridiculous to think two highly educated, successful adults didn’t keep up with weather, news and so forth. It was hot the day before, they knew what to expect. I think the outcome will stun many.
moo

How so?

 

[wary]

Simply awful. But only one FB player died? The rest of the team and staff coped, correct?

MOO

They weren’t trapped in the middle of nowhere, either.

MOO

 

[jonjon747]

Death caused by hyperthermia, either heatstroke or malignant hyperthermia, is diagnosed at the autopsy mainly using seric, histopathological and imunohistochemical methods. Even though unspectific morphological lesions are found in almost every organ, the most affected are skeletal muscles, gut, kidneys and brain.
(PDF) Morphological diagnosis of hyperthermia-related deaths

I simply can’t believe 3 heat related deaths yielded no findings to make determination. HS had to be the first thing the pathologists considered, imo. And surely the pathologists conferred with one another. I wonder if a pathologists came in from SF.

this: Even though unspectific morphological lesions are found in almost every organ, the most affected are skeletal muscles, gut, kidneys and brain. We present here a case of severe hyperthermia leading to heatstroke.

Thanks for the information.
<modsnip>
I've never seen a case where a body was found on a mountain in hottest season of the year can't be concluded quickly enough with the heatstroke as COD and that is after well over a month has gone by.
Furthermore, it doesn't take a whole month for FBI to extract and analyze data from mobile phones.
It takes only about a week or so at the most if not days even for tech savvy amateurs.

My personal take on this whole thing is, it should be completely and newly re-investigated from top to bottom.

Bring in shamans, paranormal experts or even UFO investigators to analyze and go much deeper in recreating the whole incident with alternative theories.

What really happened to them on that fateful sunday morning?

 

[willyengland]

I think the most probable explanation for the silence is, that they haven't found anything conclusive. And since the case is not in the news anymore, nobody asks the office for an update.

 

[Parsnip]

Après un été caniculaire en Californie, des algues toxiques soupçonnées dans la mort d’une famille de randonneurs

Does anyone have a subscription to Le Monde? I’d love a summary of this article…I can only access the first couple of paragraphs. It’s a recent piece and appears to be delving into TABs and anatoxins.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

A finding has not been released re: COD YET.

I NEVER said there was NO CoD in THIS case.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Thanks for the information.
Many posters here adamantly believing in heatstroke as their COD would be speechless by now if not as being punched in the gut.
I've never seen a case where a body was found on a mountain in hottest season of the year can't be concluded quickly enough with the heatstroke as COD and that is after well over a month has gone by.
Furthermore, it doesn't take a whole month for FBI to extract and analyze data from mobile phones.
It takes only about a week or so at the most if not days even for tech savvy amateurs.

My personal take on this whole thing is, it should be completely and newly re-investigated from top to bottom.

Bring in shamans, paranormal experts or even UFO investigators to analyze and go much deeper in recreating the whole incident with alternative theories.

What really happened to them on that fateful sunday morning?

toxicology tests take forever. Think about celebrities and other “known” people that have passed and the tedious wait for answers. A few; Anna Nicole, Prince, Michael Jackson and how many more? I think if we Google their CoD, date CoD announced is apex 6-8 weeks after date of death.
This is MOO, the “delay” is not actually a “delay” rather the final step in the tox’ analysis procedure, that being the quantitative amount of “foreign substance” found in each person. Negative test results would not require quantitative data as there’d be nothing to quantify.
All MOO
Postmortem toxicology supports the medical examiner and coroner communities in medicolegal death investigations by helping to identify drugs or other toxic substances where drugs may be relevant to the death investigation. Postmortem toxicology demands high-quality testing performed by skilled laboratory analysts.

Postmortem Toxicology - ChemaTox

 

[PerplexedPatty]

How so?

uhm, you get uncomfortable and decide this hike, bike ride, trail ride wasn’t a good idea in this heat, let’s head back to car, house, barn…..

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Qualitative post-mortem analysis
A qualitative test is any test that indicates the presence of a substance, without providing accurate information as to the amount.

However, a positive result from a qualitative test for the presence of a poisonous substance is not sufficient of itself to establish that the poison caused death, nor is a negative result sufficient to establish that it did not.
Post-mortem clinical pharmacology

imo, the qualitative test results as discussed in link yielded results that required moving on to much more advanced testing procedures and many labs are in custody of samples to analyze. When all involved labs conclude their testing their final reports will go to a team of pathologists to again verify and compose final death report.

 

[WillieMac]

uhm, you get uncomfortable and decide this hike, bike ride, trail ride wasn’t a good idea in this heat, let’s head back to car, house, barn…..

First: I can't speak for the person asking the question but I did I did notice that the portion of your prior post that they had bolded when they asked this question was where you had stated your belief that the outcome will stun many people. So they may have been wondering why you think that.
Second: Wasn't this loop basically downhill in any direction as they left their car? Once they had proceeded down that hill to the river, wouldn't they have needed to return uphill regardless of whether they continued on or turned around? I think that may be where some folks (or maybe just me?) feel that it could have been hard for the family to find a way back to the car regardless of whether they continued on or turned around. ...especially if one of them were already in distress. I couldn't imagine how hard it would have been to decide to retreat to the cooler waters of the river (assuming they could have safely cooled off there) when the perceived safety they may have thought they needed to reach would have been the car - which was an uphill battle regardless of the direction they took.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Après un été caniculaire en Californie, des algues toxiques soupçonnées dans la mort d’une famille de randonneurs

Does anyone have a subscription to Le Monde? I’d love a summary of this article…I can only access the first couple of paragraphs. It’s a recent piece and appears to be delving into TABs and anatoxins.

Thank you for the link, I’d like to read it as well.
I cannot access the full article, but there are glaring errors in the first paragraph. It says ‘for the first time’ anatoxin-a is the cause of death in a human. (We don’t have the COD results yet.)

If it happens to be the cause, unfortunately it would not be the first time. @Speculator found a case in 2004 in a medical publication. Here is a MSM report :
FLORIDA LAX ON ALGAE RISK, EXPERTS SAY

 

[Parsnip]

Thank you for the link, I’d like to read it as well.
I cannot access the full article, but there are glaring errors in the first paragraph. It says ‘for the first time’ anatoxin-a is the cause of death in a human. (We don’t have the COD results yet.)

If it happens to be the cause, unfortunately it would not be the first time. @Speculator found a case in 2004 in a medical publication. Here is a MSM report :
FLORIDA LAX ON ALGAE RISK, EXPERTS SAY

The author, I think, is just being dramatic here. Appears to be taking a liberty and setting up the story with a podcastish bent. Idk. It does appear, based on the title that the author believes TABs are suspected in this case. Of course, we’ve seen articles like that already, but this is the first new piece we’ve seen in a while, and it could possibly have some new info…maybe? Hopefully? It’s good to see the case getting some attention at any rate! Jmo.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

First: I can't speak for the person asking the question but I did I did notice that the portion of your prior post that they had bolded when they asked this question was where you had stated your belief that the outcome will stun many people. So they may have been wondering why you think that.
Second: Wasn't this loop basically downhill in any direction as they left their car? Once they had proceeded down that hill to the river, wouldn't they have needed to return uphill regardless of whether they continued on or turned around? I think that may be where some folks (or maybe just me?) feel that it could have been hard for the family to find a way back to the car regardless of whether they continued on or turned around. ...especially if one of them were already in distress. I couldn't imagine how hard it would have been to decide to retreat to the cooler waters of the river (assuming they could have safely cooled off there) when the perceived safety they may have thought they needed to reach would have been the car - which was an uphill battle regardless of the direction they took.

I think we all interpret things differently based on many factors, including life experiences, careers, etc.
I happen to not be in the “heat stroke” camp. Why? It’d be unheard of for all 4 autopsies to not verify HS as CoD is MOO. I have found nothing conclusively stating the exact route walked, idk if LE is even certain. Any tracks could have been from a prior hike, possibly.

 

[Curious_in_NC]

Thank you for the link, I’d like to read it as well.
I cannot access the full article, but there are glaring errors in the first paragraph. It says ‘for the first time’ anatoxin-a is the cause of death in a human. (We don’t have the COD results yet.)

If it happens to be the cause, unfortunately it would not be the first time. @Speculator found a case in 2004 in a medical publication. Here is a MSM report :
FLORIDA LAX ON ALGAE RISK, EXPERTS SAY

Actually, it would likely be the first time. The Florida journalist seems to have sourced a report based on erroneous lab results. Anatoxin-a is actually very difficult to detect. See my earlier reply to @Speculaytor's original post if you want more details about why this is.