CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[NSamuelle]

Jon appears to have a black smart watch (or perhaps a regular watch?) in a picture of him holding Miju. I wish we knew whether he was wearing it on the hike. Final calls on Brit dad's phone may hold key to how family died on hiking trip

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Jon appears to have a black smart watch (or perhaps a regular watch?) in a picture of him holding Miju. I wish we knew whether he was wearing it on the hike. Final calls on Brit dad's phone may hold key to how family died on hiking trip

I bet he had all the latest devices. I don’t wear any watch. Everyone in my circle with one seem to always wear it.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I think we all interpret things differently based on many factors, including life experiences, careers, etc.
I happen to not be in the “heat stroke” camp. Why? It’d be unheard of for all 4 autopsies to not verify HS as CoD is MOO. I have found nothing conclusively stating the exact route walked, idk if LE is even certain. Any tracks could have been from a prior hike, possibly.

BBM

I could be entirely wrong here but it seems to me that even if the dog and/or baby had confirmed COD of heatstroke, LE may have reason to decline to make that information public until they have other statements to make regarding the adults' COD.

Since the dog and baby were dependent in various ways on the adults, it seems likely to me they died of heat stroke regardless whether that is also true for the adults or not.

So to me this is a "coincidence" of maximum two, not of four. MOO

 

[PerplexedPatty]

BBM

I could be entirely wrong here but it seems to me that even if the dog and/or baby had confirmed COD of heatstroke, LE may have reason to decline to make that information public until they have other statements to make regarding the adults' COD.

Since the dog and baby were dependent in various ways on the adults, it seems likely to me they died of heat stroke regardless whether that is also true for the adults or not.

So to me this is a "coincidence" of maximum two, not of four. MOO

We’re all entitled to our opinion. I see no reason to withhold CoD for the dog and based on hundreds of pages, I don’t think CoD for the dog was in any way related to HS.
I can’t wrap my head around two adults, one infant, and one dog could dying of heat stroke together without any of their bodies bearing any evidence this is what happened.
Imo, specific “agents” provided some type of clue to the pathologists and they then knew exactly what to test for in toxicology. I think the coroner would be most eager to announce CoD to calm community fear.
Moo, of course.

 

[Parsnip]

Re: Revisiting third party involvement

While we await toxicology results, I propose an intellectual exercise for anyone who may be interested in batting around third party involvement in this case. We hashed this out before, and some of us may be fatigued…No problem if you’re not interested . As @RedHaus pointed out, we still have a homicide investigation. Maybe see if we missed something while applying our own Occam’s Razors.

Let’s circumscribe the discussion a little. Mariposa is a small town, and some individuals may be uniquely identifiable, perhaps based on familiarity or access to the family or obvious motive. We could call the “who” ??. Let’s focus our discussion mostly on means. Was there a fifth individual on the hike? (I’m counting the dog as an individual, but you don’t have to ). Could ?? Have arrived on scene at some point? Again, a purely hypothetical exercise while we bide our time.

Any takers?

Edited for dumb number mistake. It’s third party, not second party. Duh.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

The need for informatics to support forensic pathology and death investigation
earlier I attempted to explain how pathologists from around the globe share data, publish their findings and lend expertise to fellow pathologists. This article is lengthy but most informative.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

I tend to believe Sheriff B had pathologists brought to scene before bodies were removed and that forensic pathologists led the removal. They certainly had to exercise caution and not reposition anyone, despite the scene being thoroughly documented on video (moo). Forensic pathologists at the scene would immediately be aware of strange positions of the deceased, the state of rigor and many other things of importance small town LE might fail to notice.
The scene had to be a most horrific finding and I thought Sheriff B appeared almost “haunted” in his first press conference.

 

[lotus777]

We’re all entitled to our opinion. I see no reason to withhold CoD for the dog and based on hundreds of pages, I don’t think CoD for the dog was in any way related to HS.
I can’t wrap my head around two adults, one infant, and one dog could dying of heat stroke together without any of their bodies bearing any evidence this is what happened.
Imo, specific “agents” provided some type of clue to the pathologists and they then knew exactly what to test for in toxicology. I think the coroner would be most eager to announce CoD to calm community fear.
Moo, of course.

Heat stroke as potential CoD for all four has been discussed ad nauseam earlier in the thread. You could take a look to see why some don't find it unlikely at all.

ETA: One of the primary reasons is that heat stroke isn't something that occurs by chance. When body temperature is too high it will occur because of the limits of the human body.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Heat stroke as potential CoD for all four has been discussed ad nauseam earlier in the thread. You could take a look to see why some don't find it unlikely at all.

I’ve read every post. To clarify, we can all draw our conclusions based on our interpretation and research. Again, I never considered HS. I’m way out of the proverbial box.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Re: Revisiting third party involvement

While we await toxicology results, I propose an intellectual exercise for anyone who may be interested in batting around third party involvement in this case. We hashed this out before, and some of us may be fatigued…No problem if you’re not interested . As @RedHaus pointed out, we still have a homicide investigation. Maybe see if we missed something while applying our own Occam’s Razors.

Let’s circumscribe the discussion a little. Mariposa is a small town, and some individuals may be uniquely identifiable, perhaps based on familiarity or access to the family or obvious motive. We could call the “who” ??. Let’s focus our discussion mostly on means. Was there a fifth individual on the hike? (I’m counting the dog as an individual, but you don’t have to ). Could ?? Have arrived on scene at some point? Again, a purely hypothetical exercise while we bide our time.

Any takers?

Edited for dumb number mistake. It’s third party, not second party. Duh.

Unsure what you are asking?

 

[Parsnip]

Dbm.

 

[HannahJJJ]

I tend to believe Sheriff B had pathologists brought to scene before bodies were removed and that forensic pathologists led the removal. They certainly had to exercise caution and not reposition anyone, despite the scene being thoroughly documented on video (moo). Forensic pathologists at the scene would immediately be aware of strange positions of the deceased, the state of rigor and many other things of importance small town LE might fail to notice.
The scene had to be a most horrific finding and I thought Sheriff B appeared almost “haunted” in his first press conference.

"strange positions"...according to news reports, gerrish was found "seated". "seated" and "heatstroke" don't go together in my mind. moo.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

"strange positions"...according to news reports, gerrish was found "seated". "seated" and "heatstroke" don't go together in my mind.

Personally, imo, John’s position is a huge clue. Again, I hope that Sheriff B had experienced forensic pathologists at the scene.

more at link:

For starters, the blood stops moving and gravity takes hold. If a person dies and falls on his back, blood will settle in the areas closest to the ground and will slowly drain from the body's front side. Indeed, such movement gives the dead the pale appearance we associate with a lack of life. Blood doesn't disappear, it simply moves to the backside of the body closest to the ground.

Livor Mortis: The Science of Death

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I never considered HS.

RSBM

I understand that it's fairly unfathomable that people would put themselves out in life-risking conditions especially with a vulnerable baby and dog. We can have opinions on why they were there, but are not permitted to discuss it. My question to you is, do you agree that the conditions were life threatening in terms of heat, but you think something else happened to them before the heat took its toll, or do you not believe the conditions were life threatening with regard to heat? Thanks.

"seated" and "heatstroke" don't go together in my mind.

RSBM

Do you think someone struck with heatstroke would keel over as if having a heart attack? Or die on their feet like a statue? Or keep crawling until their last breath?

Do you think someone experiencing heat stroke knows they are dying?

If you were climbing multiple flights of stairs and began to feel dizzy, would you never sit down?

Not trying to be snarky, these are serious questions that relate to how I think someone experiencing heat stroke would think/react, and I'm curious to understand the thinking of others who disagree.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

This is a bit graphic:
6] Rigor mortis follows primary relaxation of the muscles; it is easily possible to change the position of body parts during this period, after which the position remains stable till the rigor mortis disappears.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3657962/
Rigor mortis in an unusual position: Forensic considerations

I am NOT saying John’s body was moved after death. I only want everyone to understand there is a period of time that a body can be posed.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

RSBM

I understand that it's fairly unfathomable that people would put themselves out in life-risking conditions especially with a vulnerable baby and dog. We can have opinions on why they were there, but are not permitted to discuss it. My question to you is, do you agree that the conditions were life threatening in terms of heat, but you think something else happened to them before the heat took its toll, or do you not believe the conditions were life threatening with regard to heat? Thanks.

RSBM

Do you think someone struck with heatstroke would keel over as if having a heart attack? Or die on their feet like a statue? Or keep crawling until their last breath?

Do you think someone experiencing heat stroke knows they are dying?

If you were climbing multiple flights of stairs and began to feel dizzy, would you never sit down?

Not trying to be snarky, these are serious questions that relate to how I think someone experiencing heat stroke would think/react, and I'm curious to understand the thinking of others who disagree.

idk how to reply, sorry. Hmmm.
I think they died before the extreme heat set in. Moo

 

[HannahJJJ]

Personally, imo, John’s position is a huge clue.

off-subject from discussion of the "seated" position, since you appear to have significant familiarity with mariposa, do you know how many properties gerrish owned in that area and how many were rentals? moo.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

idk how to reply, sorry. Hmmm.
I think they died before the extreme heat set in. Moo

Thanks, that's what I was wondering. Appreciate the clarity.

 

[Curious_in_NC]

I’m a medical lab tech, so I’m limited in understanding the details in the studies you linked. I haven’t found a MSM source that says the teen’s official cause of death was reviewed and overturned.

I think you're right, the official COD in that case was never revised. However, Carmichael, the scientist interviewed in that article, subsequently presented a re-analysis of the data. His later publications don't cite it as an example of a human death due to anatoxin-a. Neither do most other reviews such as this 2008 interagency report "to date, no human deaths in the United States have been unquestionably tied to cyanotoxins":
https://aquadocs.org/bitstream/handle/1834/30787/FreshwaterReport_final_2008.pdf

Since 2003, numerous studies and protocols have been published showing how to distinguish anatoxin-a from phenylalanine. MOO is that the victim may well have died from ingesting unknown algal toxins, but just not a lethal dose of anatoxin-a specifically.

 

[HannahJJJ]

This is a bit graphic:
6] Rigor mortis follows primary relaxation of the muscles; it is easily possible to change the position of body parts during this period, after which the position remains stable till the rigor mortis disappears.
Rigor mortis in an unusual position: Forensic considerations

I am NOT saying John’s body was moved after death. I only want everyone to understand there is a period of time that a body can be posed.

moo. something i've wondered about, are there any medications/drugs, poisons, toxins which can cause a stiffening/rigidity of the muscles which persists even after death? muscles under natural conditions relaxing, becoming flaccid immediately after death; natural rm setting-in a few to several hours later depending on various factors. moo.