CA CA - Malibu John Doe, 20-30, UP15043, found with swiss francs in his pockets, Jan'86

[jellabiafro]

Hey, another quick question.
There is a man listed as "case contributor" on NamUs. Turns out he owns some kind of law firm and their address is available online. Would it be appropriate to write an e-mail to this gentleman regarding this John Doe ? Has anyone already contacted case contributors in this kind of context ?

 

[BigKeyManatee]

Yes ! Turns out that if the serial numbers follow each other (or at least some of them), there might be a way to track down the bank the notes were issued from. And even if we can't track them, the fact that he'd have series that follow each other means he withdrawed them in one place.
If series are mixed up and quality of the notes vary, from almost brand new to very used one, this will tell us other things : either he saved a lot of money for his trip and did it on a long time-lapse by working small jobs or something ; either he was selling drugs, legal or not, or anything involving black market.

Exactly!
Kudos jellabiafro, for everything you’ve done to move this case forward. I’ve got my fingers crossed that you hear back from the Swiss journalists you’ve contacted.
I also hope that the DNA Doe Project takes up his case but do have concerns about familial matching if indeed our UID is a European visitor.
Isn’t the “23 and me” craze of uploading our DNA for genealogical research a uniquely American phenomenon?
If the Doe has had family members in the U.S. for a generation or two there is a much better chance of a match. Add to that the FBI’s CODIS database containing millions of DNA profiles of convicted criminals, people arrested but not convicted, and as of 2020, the profiles of immigrants held in federal detention.
Interpol does genetic matching when there are known sets to compare, i.e. families of missing persons, and their DNA Gateway project collects DNA from crime scenes and known criminals. But Gateway was started later than CODIS, is smaller (only 150,000 profiles in 2014) and faces additional hurdles posed from multinational participation. Plus, I don’t see European nations allowing the potential privacy breaches of banking DNA profiles of citizens not convicted of any crime.
Maybe these aren’t accurate assumptions. I’d love to hear from people living abroad who have actual knowledge and experience!
https://www.interpol.int/content/download/13469/file/FS01_02_2015_EN_web.pdf

 

[canteloupe]

Hey, another quick question.
There is a man listed as "case contributor" on NamUs. Turns out he owns some kind of law firm and their address is available online. Would it be appropriate to write an e-mail to this gentleman regarding this John Doe ? Has anyone already contacted case contributors in this kind of context ?

I think this information is out of date and Ventura County has not identified a new contact. It looks like the former contact has medically retired from his position. That said, I think contacting him might be a great way to see if you can get any information on the progress of the case, if he's willing to share.

Just a quick aside for anyone outside of CA/USA...many counties here in CA depend on the labor of reserve peace officers, who serve local LE agencies in a voluntary capacity. Sometimes they are paid for their time, sometimes not, but they are considered indistinct from full-time police officers. I do not think Ventura County pays its reserve officers, but I could be wrong.

I mention this because of the former contact's title, but also because it concerns me that there does not seem to be a dedicated full-time, paid investigator currently overseeing cold cases. There was a cold case task force operating in Ventura a few years ago, but at least two of the three appear to be retired. I think SoCal LE are in influx due to COVID. I have a buddy who is a deputy in an adjacent county who says they've had an uptick in retirements, along with medical leaves of absence and, unfortunately, deaths.

 

[jellabiafro]

I think this information is out of date and Ventura County has not identified a new contact. It looks like the former contact has medically retired from his position. That said, I think contacting him might be a great way to see if you can get any information on the progress of the case, if he's willing to share.

Just a quick aside for anyone outside of CA/USA...many counties here in CA depend on the labor of reserve peace officers, who serve local LE agencies in a voluntary capacity. Sometimes they are paid for their time, sometimes not, but they are considered indistinct from full-time police officers. I do not think Ventura County pays its reserve officers, but I could be wrong.

I mention this because of the former contact's title, but also because it concerns me that there does not seem to be a dedicated full-time, paid investigator currently overseeing cold cases. There was a cold case task force operating in Ventura a few years ago, but at least two of the three appear to be retired. I think SoCal LE are in influx due to COVID. I have a buddy who is a deputy in an adjacent county who says they've had an uptick in retirements, along with medical leaves of absence and, unfortunately, deaths.

Thank you. I will try to think about the best way to ask him questions and write a proper case. I think I'll wait til I get a Swiss journalist/reporter on the case so it sounds more legit too.

And yeah. A year of COVID has done so much damage to people amongst so many communities. I hope we get to live differently soon. Sigh.

 

[MarziPanda]

Isn’t the “23 and me” craze of uploading our DNA for genealogical research a uniquely American phenomenon?

bbm

Not really. There are a couple of countries in Europe where it's illegal (France, for example) but plenty of people do it anyway even in those countries. Yes, it's not as popular as it is in the US, but plenty of people still do it. Eurovision (the huge yearly song contest watched by millions around the world in which Europe and Australia competes) was even sponsored by MyHeritage, a DNA genealogy service, a couple years ago. I'm a Brit, and I have many matches in the databases. I know many people who have done it. It's also a popular thing to do in Australia/New Zealand.

So whilst this Doe probably wouldn't have as many matches as an American (that is, if he's European), he almost certainly would have some - probably enough to work on. European privacy laws don't have much to do with GEDmatch etc. If someone chooses to upload their raw DNA data there, they're opting in to Doe matching, and that's their choice. Doing the genealogy research might be a bit tougher, though, looking up birth/marriage/etc records of people in another country who may not have them as readily available.

The only place I can see the DNA Doe Project/Othram/etc route getting stuck is if they narrow it down to a particular family or person, but then getting DNA from living family to confirm may be a pain considering the logistics of being an ocean away from California.

 

[jellabiafro]

Exactly!
Kudos jellabiafro, for everything you’ve done to move this case forward. I’ve got my fingers crossed that you hear back from the Swiss journalists you’ve contacted.
I also hope that the DNA Doe Project takes up his case but do have concerns about familial matching if indeed our UID is a European visitor.
Isn’t the “23 and me” craze of uploading our DNA for genealogical research a uniquely American phenomenon?
If the Doe has had family members in the U.S. for a generation or two there is a much better chance of a match. Add to that the FBI’s CODIS database containing millions of DNA profiles of convicted criminals, people arrested but not convicted, and as of 2020, the profiles of immigrants held in federal detention.
Interpol does genetic matching when there are known sets to compare, i.e. families of missing persons, and their DNA Gateway project collects DNA from crime scenes and known criminals. But Gateway was started later than CODIS, is smaller (only 150,000 profiles in 2014) and faces additional hurdles posed from multinational participation. Plus, I don’t see European nations allowing the potential privacy breaches of banking DNA profiles of citizens not convicted of any crime.
Maybe these aren’t accurate assumptions. I’d love to hear from people living abroad who have actual knowledge and experience!
https://www.interpol.int/content/download/13469/file/FS01_02_2015_EN_web.pdf

Hey, thanx for throwing your thoughts and searching with me! I have to say I'm impressed on how awesome folks are on this forum.

You're right, people in Europe aren't used to get DNA tests, maybe because genealogies are super accessible and countries somehow allow "older" families to track their ancestors on paper. I took one out of curiosity a couple of years ago and everybody around me thought I was weird (lol).

But DNA tests are now often ran during police controls/arrests. A lot of people got their DNA checked on random arrests du. If the decedent has a cousin/nephew/relative who broke the law in the past 10 years and got their mouth swabbed, we might have a lead. It's a thin one though.
There's a possibility that he had relatives in the US too, as you said.

 

[jellabiafro]

bbm

Not really. There are a couple of countries in Europe where it's illegal (France, for example) but plenty of people do it anyway even in those countries. Yes, it's not as popular as it is in the US, but plenty of people still do it. Eurovision (the huge yearly song contest watched by millions around the world in which Europe and Australia competes) was even sponsored by MyHeritage, a DNA genealogy service, a couple years ago. I'm a Brit, and I have many matches in the databases. I know many people who have done it. It's also a popular thing to do in Australia/New Zealand.

So whilst this Doe probably wouldn't have as many matches as an American (that is, if he's European), he almost certainly would have some - probably enough to work on. European privacy laws don't have much to do with GEDmatch etc. If someone chooses to upload their raw DNA data there, they're opting in to Doe matching, and that's their choice. Doing the genealogy research might be a bit tougher, though, looking up birth/marriage/etc records of people in another country who may not have them as readily available.

The only place I can see the DNA Doe Project/Othram/etc route getting stuck is if they narrow it down to a particular family or person, but then getting DNA from living family to confirm may be a pain considering the logistics of being an ocean away from California.

Hey, I didnt know it was illegal to take a DNA test in france but you're right, I read more about it and it's a 3700euro fine for anyone who gets busted doing it (the arguments for why you can't do it are weird too).

I previously said it wasn't that common but I might be wrong and it could depend on countries. In Switzerland it's a rare thing, I don't think Germans do it that often nor Italians or Spanish.

What we all agree on is that the DNA is a very thin lead, but if we can narrow it down to some family trees, it would be a great help I'm sure, at least to determine where he (approximatively) came from.

But I think I heard something about comparing Does DNAs to other DNA's in Europe (through private databases f.e) as being extremely difficult to accomplish and, correct me if I'm wrong, the journalist investigating the Oslo Plaza "Jennifer Fairgate" is still awaiting some approvals to get her DNA compared. (I don't think getting her DNA tested was the issue, I think it's to publish /or share it /or compare it that seemed problematic.

 

[branmuffin]

Hey, thanx for throwing your thoughts and searching with me! I have to say I'm impressed on how awesome folks are on this forum.

You're right, people in Europe aren't used to get DNA tests, maybe because genealogies are super accessible and countries somehow allow "older" families to track their ancestors on paper. I took one out of curiosity a couple of years ago and everybody around me thought I was weird (lol).

But DNA tests are now often ran during police controls/arrests. A lot of people got their DNA checked on random arrests du. If the decedent has a cousin/nephew/relative who broke the law in the past 10 years and got their mouth swabbed, we might have a lead. It's a thin one though.
There's a possibility that he had relatives in the US too, as you said.

Not only is the quest for DNA history unique to mostly North American participants it's also unique to those of white European backgrounds. There is a reluctance of African Americans to submit their DNA sometimes for the reasons you named above but mostly because slavery put up so many roadblocks. For them it's a literal dead end. The same for many Asian Americans, Hispanics and Indigenous people. I doubt we have to worry about the groups I just named because I don't believe he is an American. He's most likely European only because I believe Occam's razor is at work here (European currency, all clothing seems to be European, uncircumcised) but you never know.

 

[jellabiafro]

I have some general questions/observations to make.

Assuming that having the Swiss francs means that he came from Switzerland, what route would have have taken in late 1985? Was there a direct flight from Switzerland to LAX? Or is it more likely that he had a layover somewhere on the East Coast? Even today, it appears that Swissair is the only airline offering direct routes (there are maybe 1-2 other carriers flying 3 routes).

[The above paragraph presumes that he went directly from Switzerland to LAX. If he was sightseeing in other areas, the information is far less useful.]

Was this person possibly at a New Year's Eve party of some kind? It was speculated above. But why doesn't he have any kind of ID? Depending on the type of event, he would have needed an ID to buy alcohol or get into a club. Nowadays, I know that if you're paying cash for a car or a hotel room, ID is necessary (in this case, an ID could still be in his hotel room or wherever he was staying). When i worked at a grocery store, one time I recall a visitor using her Turkish passport to show proof of being 21+.

At first the description of both currencies mixed together sounded wrong (most people will keep them separate, nothing worse than digging through a wallet while trying to pay), but the picture shows them neatly clipped and held together in the pouch.

Hey so I got the confirmation that Zurich to LAX flights weren't introduced before 1989. So the only direct route from Switzerland to the USA was from GVA to NYC, he then would've had to take a domestic flight, which is totally possible.

 

[BigKeyManatee]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE
Question:
What do make of that orange tubing wrapped about the Does’s waist?

 

[jellabiafro]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE
Question:
What do make of that orange tubing wrapped about the Does’s waist?
View attachment 291944

You're right ! And I have to say : I have no clue and it did hit me at some point but I didn't write about it. It's not mentionned anywhere in the files. What. the heck.

 

[Rootje]

is it possible he was a traveller? with all the spanish and portugese clothing, the swiss francs and the fact that he was found in miami... just speculating. maybe he finished his studies and decided to travel?

 

[jellabiafro]

is it possible he was a traveller? with all the spanish and portugese clothing, the swiss francs and the fact that he was found in miami... just speculating. maybe he finished his studies and decided to travel?

That's what investigators have been aiming at. Portugal was one of the major fabric/clothing export country accross Europe. He wasn't found in Miami though, he was found in Malibu. But still, the idea that he was a tourist/traveller is totally possible

 

[BigKeyManatee]

You're right ! And I have to say : I have no clue and it did hit me at some point but I didn't write about it. It's not mentionned anywhere in the files. What. the heck.

Thoughts on the tubing:

• It looks like medical or laboratory tubing that has become discolored due to age or use.
• It could have been used to secure the money pouch to his clothing or his person.
• Medical tubing was sometimes used by needle-using addicts as a tie-off.

Isn’t it interesting that the money bag, stuffed full, remained intact and still attached to his person?
This makes me think that he expired on the beach just where he was found, and was subjected to the incoming tide.
Drowning offshore or washing up on the beach from falling in somewhere else would subject the body to a lot of turbulence. I don’t know if the money bag would be so intact under those circumstances.
There is no cause of death listed. Maybe he didn’t drown. Maybe he died of an overdose? The tubing could have been part of his kit. (All MOO)
It would be so helpful to see his full autopsy report.

 

[jellabiafro]

Thoughts on the tubing:

• It looks like medical or laboratory tubing that has become discolored due to age or use.
• It could have been used to secure the money pouch to his clothing or his person.
• Medical tubing was sometimes used by needle-using addicts as a tie-off.

Isn’t it interesting that the money bag, stuffed full, remained intact and still attached to his person?
This makes me think that he expired on the beach just where he was found, and was subjected to the incoming tide.
Drowning offshore or washing up on the beach from falling in somewhere else would subject the body to a lot of turbulence. I don’t know if the money bag would be so intact under those circumstances.
There is no cause of death listed. Maybe he didn’t drown. Maybe he died of an overdose? The tubing could have been part of his kit. (All MOO)
It would be so helpful to see his full autopsy report.

You're right it could be a tourniquet, though obvious injection wounds haven't been reported, he might aswell have been using, for the first time (or several)

It could also be some item used by the police for some reason and therefore not reported in the case file.

The pouch was found in the right front pocket of his jeans. I assume this is why nobody stole it from him. It was well enough hidden and probably sitting tightly in his pocket, the reason, I guess, why it didn't wash away.

Yes, we really need to see the full autopsy report.

 

[BigKeyManatee]

You're right it could be a tourniquet, though obvious injection wounds haven't been reported, he might aswell have been using, for the first time (or several)

It could also be some item used by the police for some reason and therefore not reported in the case file.

The pouch was found in the right front pocket of his jeans. I assume this is why nobody stole it from him. It was well enough hidden and probably sitting tightly in his pocket, the reason, I guess, why it didn't wash away.

Yes, we really need to see the full autopsy report.

OK, here’s another possibility or probability!
The “tubing” could actually be a natural artifact of the Pacific Coast beach where he was found. Maybe it is a piece of kelp and that is why it wasn’t mentioned by LE.

I imagine it could turn orange-ish from prolonged sunlight.
Bull Whip Kelp

 

[jellabiafro]

OK, here’s another possibility or probability!
The “tubing” could actually be a natural artifact of the Pacific Coast beach where he was found. Maybe it is a piece of kelp and that is why it wasn’t mentioned by LE.
View attachment 292034
I imagine it could turn orange-ish from prolonged sunlight.
Bull Whip Kelp

Yup, and depending on when the photo was taken it could even make it brighter. Thank you for this suggestion, I'll add it to the case file I'm building.

 

[snowgoose]

I thought it was a dirty orange electrical cord rather than a tube. Like they brought some lighting equipment to take photos of the crime scene and the cord connecting the lamp to the generator was left lying across his body - I'm not sure if that's something that would happen, but that's what I pictured.

 

[Bit of hope]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE
Question:
What do make of that orange tubing wrapped about the Does’s waist?
View attachment 291944

I was intrigued by that too, but I don't have an answer (yet?) I think it could be Kelp. Good find @BigKeyManatee

 

[jellabiafro]

I was intrigued by that too, but I don't have an answer (yet?) I think it could be Kelp. Good find @BigKeyManatee

I mean it's super weird they would mention so many details about his outfit but not the reason this rope/kelp/chord is visible on the picture, so I would either say it's kelp, either it's police equipment, either some very insignificant piece of chord that washed out with him.