CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #2

[Thyme]

Are these electrical wires? Thanks.

 

[Lilibet]

Hi Lilibet!

I agree with your post in spirit but I have to veer a little in that I do believe the city has a responsibility to ensure that buildings are safe. I would hate to live adjacent to a death trap only to have my house burn down because the city couldn't be bothered to force the owner to put fire safety measures in place. Who would I blame? The city inspectors.

What's chomping at my butt though is that it really doesn't take a whole lot of effort to install minimal safety features. If just that pallet stairway had been a properly built one then some, if not all the concert goers on the second floor would have had a fighting chance to find their way out of the building.

It makes me sick to my stomach to know that a couple of partygoers actually had time to text loved ones to say goodbye. That tells me that they knew they were trapped on the second floor with no way down. One adequate set of stairs may have changed the outcome of this fire. And while Derick I is the a-hole who let the GS become a death trap, the city could have and should have stepped in to enforce changes.

Hi to you too, MsM!

Oh yes, I agree that in a perfect world, the city (any city) would monitor buildings for Fire Code infractions and the owners would immediately comply, and be safety conscious. Or, if owners refused to comply, inspectors would force them to...but how? And how does the compliant owner evict the offending tenant? Any kind of legal action takes forever.

I'm not saying that cities shouldn't try to monitor their buildings, but that involves hiring more people (including attorneys), which may reduce their budget for other things like social services. Solving one problem usually creates or exacerbates one or more other ones. I just think it's easier said than done, even though we all want it done. It's a frustrating and potentially tragic reality IMO.

I can practically guarantee you that if inspections had been done routinely and the warehouse owner had been cited for what DIA was doing, she either wouldn't have complied or would have had a terrible time evicting him. He would have carried on, business as usual, for as long as possible, risking lives. The staircase would have remained a death trap. This fire could have happened even while the eviction process slogged on, and on.

I really hope this tragedy brings change, but as I've said before, this warehouse issue is so complex that solving it requires fixing other big issues too. I'm honestly not at all optimistic.
JMO

 

[HMSHood]

The idea of injustice collector is good.

What do you say about people who want to continue to live the way they want inspite of the evidence that these buildings are dangerous?

They can make the decision for their ownselves, but what about the innocents who may perish who did not agree to unsafe conditions? What about fire fighters and first responders that have to come and deal with conflagration? Selfish is the way I see it. Entitled .

Goes back to what injustice collectors are. They think rules do not apply to them. They have their own rules they follow and they will break their own rules. They only care about themselves and no one else, but themselves. Everyone else is expandable to them as long as they are not harmed and benefits them. They live in an extreme form of Survival of the Fittest or Hyper Darwinism.

Injustice Collectors
http://www.psybersquare.com/family/family_injustice.html

1,) Injustice Collectors are convinced that they are never wrong. How is it possible that they are never wrong? It is simple: They are always right.

2.) Injustice Collectors never apologize. Ever. For anything.

3.) Injustice Collectors truly believe that they are morally and ethically superior to others and that others chronically do not hold themselves to the same high standards as the injustice collector does.

4.) Injustice Collectors make the rules, break the rules and enforce the rules of the family. They are a combined legislator, police, and judge and jury of

5.) Injustice Collectors never worry about what is wrong with themselves as their "bad list" grows. Their focus is always on the failings of others.

6.) Injustice Collectors are never upset by the disparity of their rules for others with their own expectations of themselves.

7.) Injustice Collectors rationalize their own behavior with great ease and comfort.

There is no Injustice Collector Personality Disorder. It is like psychopathy, there is no Psychopathy Personality Disorder. The closest are Paranoid, Antisocial, Narcissitic, Borderline, and Histrionic Personality Disorder. Injustice collectors is a form of narcissism and psychopathy one looks at it.

A longer list.

Are They an 'Injustice Collector?'
http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/11/25/are-they-injustice-collector

1. Injustice collectors are never wrong. How is it possible that they are never wrong? It's simple: They are always right.

2. Injustice collectors never apologize. Ever. For anything.

3. Injustice collectors truly believe they are morally and ethically superior to others and that others seem incapable of holding themselves to the same high standards as the injustice collector does.

4. Injustice collectors make the rules, break the rules and enforce the rules of the family. They are a combination of legislator, police, judge and jury to those they consider their subjects. They forever banish from their kingdom any subject they deem disloyal, and only grant clemency if there is sufficient (in their eyes) contrition.

5. Injustice collectors never worry about what is wrong with them as their "bad" list grows. Their focus is always on the failings of others.

6. Injustice collectors are never troubled by the disparity between their rules for others and their own expectations of themselves. Injustice collectors rationalize their own behavior with great ease and comfort.

7. Injustice collectors have an external orientation; the problem always exists in the world, outside of themselves, and in their view, the world would be an acceptable place if their rules and standards were followed at all times.

8. Injustice collectors do not have a capacity for remorse, empathy or guilt.

9. Injustice collectors scoff at the idea of therapy, therapists, self-help books, and other tools used by people who struggle to live with them.

10. The phrase "walking on eggshells" describes life with an injustice collector.

11. The IC (injustice Collector) will prey upon your weaknesses to frame all issues in their terms.

12. IC's will always cry foul when you are 'mean' to them and accuse you of being nasty when you are confronting them with their negative behavior.

13. They are titanically insecure and cannot trust anyone. All relationships they have, even with their own parents and children and trustless and must be reinforced by subordination over and over.

14. They can only strengthen relationships through imprisoning their mates and banning behaviors and other relationships. Friends and family are a huge threat to the IC.

15. They must repetitively revisit situations where you service them, give in to them and agree with them. They will over time shrink your world to a small plot of empty activities that only they like. They are terrified of travel, meeting new people, understanding new concepts and paroling you from any punishment they have previously 'convicted' you of.

16. They do not care about you at all, they care about aggrandizing themselves with you as an assistant producer.

17. They will occasionally do something for you, but if you are not completely brainwashed, it will be a negative experience for you in the end. Example is throwing you a birthday party. I guarantee you will not have fun at your own party.

18. They will force you to choose between them and other things you like or love. The more you choose them, the more they will make you choose them over and over. They do not understand the concept of loyalty at all.

19. Hypocrisy is their modus operandi for debating and arguing with you. Everything they say about you is true about them. (aka Projection) It makes it so you try to 'win' fights by getting them to agree with you, which they never can because their whole position is false.

20. Your life will disappear into their lives. Your hopes and dreams will fade, even in your own mind. You will eat what they want, you will watch what they want on TV, you will vacation where they want, or not at all.

Derick Almena shows all characteristics of an injustice collector. Others who show all that are Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, Lori Drew, Elliot Rodger, Eric Harris, Adam Lanza, Seung-Hui Cho, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Osama bin Laden, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Adolf Hitler, and Joseph Stalin.

 

[CARIIS]

Are these electrical wires? Thanks.

Sure looks like it huh??

 

[rsd1200]

So most of the people that lived there were on the first floor and made it out safely? I guess they were very familiar with how to navigate the obstacles and walkways to get to the exit.

The people upstairs visiting for the concert didn't stand a chance of getting out b/c it was dark and confusing to find your way to the stairs?

.
I remember someone saying that people had to navigate the steps from the second floor, single file, or one at a time. One person said they just kept following voices in front of them to navigate and I think that person said they were the last one out. This person did say that a person ran back up the steps b/c they couldn't see and said everyone should go back upstairs (wrong thing to do, but they were probably panicking).

 

[MistyM]

Sure looks like it huh??

the white twisty tie keeping them together makes me think they are wires. if they were tassles or something they would have been showcased, not kept together like that.

aren't there any places that aren't run by egotistical gurus, why couldn't a real 'collective' or collection of artists get together and find something, and all take responsibility for keeping their living spaces safe. i mean it looks like the owners of these places don't give too much of a poo about what's going on, so perhaps if you live somewhere help out with little odd jobs around the place, it's for not just everyone else's safety but your own (of course don't get a person who doesn't know anything about wiring, wire stuff, but barter with people who do know).

i hope present and future warehouse groups act more as a community with no real 'boss' like 'ion' was. and my goodness if you are gonna have parties, have a safe area to throw them.

 

[LinasK]

I am not totally sure, but me sense is that none of that has to be done by an owner as long as it is only being used as storage.

There are a ton of buildings built whatever dates that preceded code changes that are exempt even if humans are gonna occupy.f

Also now that we know that the building had never been really looked at or monitored, in conjunction with the fact that the owner did respond to the first violation and mitigated it- I think that goes a long way.

As far as Friday night went (T-Giving weekend the notice went out) the owner , had, in know way indicated intent not to mitigate - they only knew about the violation a few days before the tragedy.

Any and all of this is interesting but irrelevant in real America.

Whoever has the deepest pockets , in terms of civil, is who everyone is going after.

In terms of Ion, IMO he is in another whole league of liability . Anyone knows that propane heated showers are probably not in the best interest of fire prevention!!

No one gave me a keychain with a little flashlight when I moved in! Clearly, indicates an awareness that lighting might be optional at times!!

None of us have a fire extinguisher every 8 x 10 area of our home ! (that may change ha1). Obviously, indicates that most were aware they was a valid fire concern within the community.

Being told to always say it is only a workspace indicates he clearly knew he was violating the law (that in and of itself seems like it would be enough) moo

I suppose he may have (doubtful in such an international story) retained attorneys, but I would think the media would have found out, or the media would be referred to that person by now.

This notion, IMO, is the most stunning out of the whole tragedy, in terms of psychopathology. If he truly has not retained an attorney, he must (core belief) authentically (Today show) believe he bears no responsibility.

IMO this is intense cognitive dissonance, how on earth could a person who is telling tenants to "lie" but still not KNOW that he needs an attorney is a really pathological thinking process IMO.

I still think both of them are super high flight risk. If his core belief system is he has no responsibility for any of this, then the logical next thinking notion would be I am being erroneously held accountable, then I will just split.

After discovering (I posted both of them in case we need them later ha! I think his criminal history is far more extensive. He has a multitude of names - the two posted that were just like "close" to one another . I don't remember exactly but it was BS like Bob Jones at times and Bobby Jonnes. Close but different in computer days,

Then he has Ion bla bla Ion some middle name bla bal and one other.

Then on Spokeo like site he has like 5 different countries in terms of residence.

Who knows how many more names he has.

The notion that the reality that his children have been removed still has not seemed to register that the system does not agree with his notions that the place is safe, takes us back to an amazing belief system - kinda scary actually.

In addition, if it is true that CPS was out there a couple of days prior, how he cant connect that down the road, there are going to be case workers able to clearly (that stuff has to be really documented in detail) state the conditons they encountered.

Again, it comes back to how can he truly beleive , that anyone could possibly beleive that he thousht it was safe, if 72 hours before, concerns about his childrens welfare were clearly outlined to him is also bizarre.

By law, CPS must give care takers very clear thing and specific "things" that must be addressed to avoid removal from their custody, or in this case having then removed again.

WIth prior CPS invovment there will also be very clearly documented accounts by the children outlining how they were living. I also think as it relates to confidentiality a judge might allow some of those statements to be entered-36 people are deceased, its been all over the global media , so I think a judge might conclude that revealing some of that information (its already out there) is fine.

Then he has those two ladies who have been all over media, and then the g parents who know a lot it goes back to where is your attorney?

We might be talking about a murder trial, lots of people flip when we are talking about life in prison, so who knows what else is gonna be found out as "those in the know" reveal to save their tushies.

mo only

No, even if the warehouse was only used for storage, I'm fairly sure the fire code would still dictate sprinklers at minimum. They're not going to let an empty building burn especially when it's in a residential neighborhood. I think this one got grandfathered in somehow, because it was built in 1930 before WWII, and wasn't on the fire inspections radar, let alone property inspectors if there wasn't specific enough complaints about it. I still blame the owner for not even trying to enter the premises. I can't believe Derick and the tenants could have hidden that much junk well enough for her to know it wasn't being used for the purposes he rented it for. And if she ever came by after dark, she'd have seen lights on.
This particular owner is also known to be a slumlord in regard to her other properties, complaints about sewage and cracked walls not being repaired...

 

[LinasK]

Hi to you too, MsM!

Oh yes, I agree that in a perfect world, the city (any city) would monitor buildings for Fire Code infractions and the owners would immediately comply, and be safety conscious. Or, if owners refused to comply, inspectors would force them to...but how? And how does the compliant owner evict the offending tenant? Any kind of legal action takes forever.

I'm not saying that cities shouldn't try to monitor their buildings, but that involves hiring more people (including attorneys), which may reduce their budget for other things like social services. Solving one problem usually creates or exacerbates one or more other ones. I just think it's easier said than done, even though we all want it done. It's a frustrating and potentially tragic reality IMO.

I can practically guarantee you that if inspections had been done routinely and the warehouse owner had been cited for what DIA was doing, she either wouldn't have complied or would have had a terrible time evicting him. He would have carried on, business as usual, for as long as possible, risking lives. The staircase would have remained a death trap. This fire could have happened even while the eviction process slogged on, and on.

I really hope this tragedy brings change, but as I've said before, this warehouse issue is so complex that solving it requires fixing other big issues too. I'm honestly not at all optimistic.
JMO

If it was the previous mayor Jean Quan, I would have tended to agree with you, but I'm personally very impressed with Libby Schaaf. I've seen her up close and she's a go-getter. She will institute changes and get to the bottom of the problem. Also, as I previously stated, the Gov. of Calif. Jerry Brown was mayor of Oakland before he got re-elected to the governorship, and he is aware of the problem, he's not going to ignore Oakland on a state level.

 

[Ian]

IF the account of the neighbor who saw a small fire burning outside near one corner of the building is true, that could point to arson. JMO

I just cannot find the link for that. I only saw it in the one story. I have thought about this, and it could point to a small fire started in the detritus of recycle stuff and trash outside against the building, but it also makes me think of a fire within the wall and burning there. It could be visible from the outside if the wall was in bad repair and would explain the "strange orange glow" that one resident saw inside the building on the lower floor.

Now a diagram from The East Bay Times news site has the fire starting in the "good" stairwell area "behind the stage area" where the entertainers had wiring and cables running.

I do have a theory as to why DIA, wifey and children were in a motel room for the event last friday. The family's actual living space was upstairs and adjacent to the dance floor and stage area. With CPS dogging them, maybe they thought they needed to have the kids away from the party. Otherwise it is a bit odd that they were not there and the whole place goes up in flames.

 

[LinasK]

.
I remember someone saying that people had to navigate the steps from the second floor, single file, or one at a time. One person said they just kept following voices in front of them to navigate and I think that person said they were the last one out. This person did say that a person ran back up the steps b/c they couldn't see and said everyone should go back upstairs (wrong thing to do, but they were probably panicking).

I saw a picture in the DailyMail article of the "staircase". It was a twisting thing that looked like something out of a funhouse/child's play place. I think the other one was a ladder.

 

[LinasK]

I just cannot find the link for that. I only saw it in the one story. I have thought about this, and it could point to a small fire started in the detritus of recycle stuff and trash outside against the building, but it also makes me think of a fire within the wall and burning there. It could be visible from the outside if the wall was in bad repair and would explain the "strange orange glow" that one resident saw inside the building on the lower floor.

Now a diagram from The East Bay Times news site has the fire starting in the "good" stairwell area "behind the stage area" where the entertainers had wiring and cables running.

I do have a theory as to why DIA, wifey and children were in a motel room for the event last friday. The family's actual living space was upstairs and adjacent to the dance floor and stage area. With CPS dogging them, maybe they thought they needed to have the kids away from the party. Otherwise it is a bit odd that they were not there and the whole place goes up in flames.

BBM. I agree, otherwise it'd look like arson.

 

[Ian]

I'm so curious to know Derek's original interaction with the warehouse owner. Certainly he came to her with a legitimate reason to rent warehouse space? Did he present a business that required inventory storage? Did he pay first and last months rent of $10K in cash?

Did she do a background, credit and criminal check on him? We assume at this point that most of his income was from marijuana growing in Northern California. How in the world did he pass all of these background checks?

One interesting thing I found when running DIA's name and aliases through various data bases was that he has several import/export licenses for goods, one was for Indonesia and one was for India, who knows how many others he has. He was allegedly importing goods from both those countries and it helps explain at least some of the elaborate Balinese Wedding beds and statuary we see throughout the Ghost Ship. With those licenses he would have need of a warehouse for storage, plus he seems to have tried recycling stuff, another plausible warehouse use.

 

[LinasK]

A week after the deadly Oakland warehouse fire, federal investigators conclusively ruled out one possible cause of the blaze Friday: a refrigerator found near the origin of the inferno.
The determination came after officials with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives deployed a forensic mapping team in the morning to document and photograph the inside of the building at 31st Avenue and International Boulevard. <snip>Investigators have also found no evidence to suggest that someone intentionally started the fire, Snyder said. They are continuing to examine electrical appliances and wiring as possible sources of ignition.“Everything electrical at the scene they are still looking at,” Snyder said Friday at a news conference outside the gutted two-story warehouse-turned-artist enclave called the Ghost Ship. She said there’s a possibility that investigators will never be able to definitively pin down the source of ignition — which she said is common.<snip>

No city records have surfaced of fire inspectors ever examining the warehouse, despite a state mandate to do so once a year.
Oakland Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed blamed the lack of inspections on budget cuts and hiring freezes in her department.
“Was it the best? No, it wasn’t,” Reed said during an interview Thursday on CNN.
She also said it remained unclear if the fire department even had the building logged in its database.<snip>There were no smoke alarms in the building, and two makeshift stairwells led up to the second floor where an electronic music party was going on. Neither stairwell directly led to an exit on the first floor, Snyder said. more at link: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Oakland-fire-was-definitively-not-caused-by-10786849.php

 

[Jax49]

I can't find the source (so the words might not be exact) but I remember one comment about the stairs.

"Would you call a jungle gym a staircase?"

 

[alsleuther]

So there was a "good stairwell" that was adjacent to the Almena living quarters? So is it possible that this was blocked off purely for privacy or his own use and derick built the pallet staircase and put up a ladder for everyone else to use?

 

[alsleuther]

The more I think about it, I wonder if the staircase next to dericks living area was perfectly fine. After watching these videos of the live music, the sheer amount of equipment up there was probably carried straight up the good flight of stairs, straight through dericks Balinese bedroom and into the concert space.

Maybe the owner of the building never even knew about the pallet staircase as she rented him a warehouse with a fully operational staircase to begin with.

 

[CARIIS]

So there was a "good stairwell" that was adjacent to the Almena living quarters? So is it possible that this was blocked off purely for privacy or his own use and derick built the pallet staircase and put up a ladder for everyone else to use?

Not really sure but I thought the area where the other stairs were was clsoed off cause that was where he was stealing utliies.

It has been claimed that is was from the auto place but that is one heck of building - I can not imagine the tenant next door not knowing and being able to report and convict - the amount would have to be substantial.

So maybe he was actually doing from the main grid, which would require some serious knowledge, which I am sure he did not have.

Starting to wonder if the origin was at the place of theft.

It sounds like most there had knowledge of fire extinguisher use, so it seems somewhat IMO unlikely that an appliance fire could do what happened.

But then I get confused - cause in a way it sounds as if appliances were also kinda in a place not out in like a public place.

But after watching the videos they will be able to figure this out exactly - modern fire science, from what I learning yesterday is extraordinarily sophisticated. By that I mean they may never get to orgin but they will, I think be able to tell us exactly how the fire progressed and why it did what it did.

The presenter was awesome, cause I kept getting confused and confused but he was so good in nailing home the key points that by the end I got the simple basic idea.

It was as neat as the NTSB --really amazing what they have learned as far as how fire behaves.

Because there was an event there would be a lot more demand than on regular night so at some level it makes that the weakest link might have the failure opportunity casue of demand loads.

Firefox pls correct if too general - but the takeaway for us lay people (again if wrong pls correct) is on your way out pull shut as many doors as you can on the way out while fleeing ,and opening a window to try to get fresh air pretty well seals your fate.

 

[Jax49]

This article is a few days old, but has a comment about the "good" stairs.

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12...and-investigators-try-to-find-cause-of-blaze/

...one former resident, Shelly Mack, said that electrical wiring in the structure was shoddy, even as residents used large amounts of power to run things like music speakers.

“There was construction equipment, refrigerators, speakers,” she said of her time living in the converted warehouse. “The back stairway was blocked because we ran all the wires for the electricity through the back stairway. If you walked down the stairs you could trip over the wires, so they blocked it off for the parties.”

bbm

 

[CARIIS]

Anyone know exactly what kind of warehouse it was when built, and what changes went on through its history of previous tenants?

 

[CARIIS]

No, even if the warehouse was only used for storage, I'm fairly sure the fire code would still dictate sprinklers at minimum. They're not going to let an empty building burn especially when it's in a residential neighborhood. I think this one got grandfathered in somehow, because it was built in 1930 before WWII, and wasn't on the fire inspections radar, let alone property inspectors if there wasn't specific enough complaints about it. I still blame the owner for not even trying to enter the premises. I can't believe Derick and the tenants could have hidden that much junk well enough for her to know it wasn't being used for the purposes he rented it for. And if she ever came by after dark, she'd have seen lights on.
This particular owner is also known to be a slumlord in regard to her other properties, complaints about sewage and cracked walls not being repaired...

I am not so sure about slumlord tho. She has 17 properties, and to have a sewer leak, 3 graphitti complants, and the first blight issue ( mitigated).

If you think about it 17 properties and that it does not seem all that bad.

The one complaint the warehouse got was addressed and corrected within time frames, and it seems the daughter kept the code people up to date on her mitigation plans and did follow through and correct.

So at least at this point it does not seem like we have a trial of poorly maintained properties, and a history of not responding to issues WHEN TOLD ABOUT THEM.

The compliant about the cracked wall was also fixed

So what it seems we have is a owner with 17 properties (would love to get a list of them) . Thus far we know of

A) a cracked wall- fixed
B) loose ceiling - fixed
C) grafitti - fixed
D) sewer leak unknown.if fixed
E) first blight - addressed.

At this point we have 80% correction rate of the ones that have emerged thus far.

The letter was mailed on Nov 21- 10 days before fire. For the media to turn this into landlord has a history of not addressing code violations is not true according to what we know now..

or to put it another way, it was certified, it was T-Giving weekend - post office down for holiday. Everyone is going nuts on T-Giving weekend. It could have been they tried to deliver the certified letter the Monday after the holday or Tues and they were with family, and unable to sign. It just seems credible to me that landlord at best had been made aware of ciciation 48 hours before it happened , or even less if, when the second attempt to deleiver noone was home. The media blazing all over the place that owner knew what was going on on Nov 17 is not true - certified letter went out on the 21 - not really a lot of time, and certainly not enough time to label this as landlord blowing off a citation.

If anyone is good with that deed stuff it would be neat to see what properties are in their portfoio to determine state of repair of the properties they are resposible for.

I would think at this point in time, if they were really derilect with a lot of thier properties tenants would be crawling out of the woodwork to the media.

Thus far, there has not been this outpouring of slumlord stuff.
Eviction is hard, it hardly seems appriorpate for the media to be carrying on that garbage piled up, was reported, lanlord corrected, BUT that she should have started eveiction, after one compliant???

To us after the fire it seems clear. But It may true that what was going on in the electrical system behind the walls and stuff would take an engineer I think.

She certainly did not know that they were jerry rigging and stealing electricity and I would think that meant messing around with some real high voltage stuff.

Plugging in an electrical cord to a neighbor's wall socket is , I would think, not be able to do all that bunch in terms of the warehouses electrical needs.

I think we gotta be talking about something happening at the big point where major electricity enters the building for the entire structure. j a thought

Violations corrected at this link:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...nd-Warehouse-Sends-Condolences-404628345.html