CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #2

[MsMarple]

The Oakland Fire: What
Happened Inside the Ghost Ship


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/12/us/oakland-warehouse-ghost-ship-fire.html?&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

That's a great series. Thanks for the updated installment, Jax! It really explains the maze that guests had to make their way through in order to escape. It's sad and maddening - just a little forethought and IMO more people would have gotten out. Better stairs, a large lit exit sign, FFS any improvement.
Derick Ion constructed the perfect death trap. :stormingmad:

 

[MsMarple]

What is all that stuff on the sidewalk from?

It's junk, courtesy of his highness Derick Ion. Every picture I've seen taken of that spot over the years has some kind of junk pile obstructing the rollup door.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.777...4!1sQLG_yLa1ERdZ_l-znbaw9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

ETA: To clarify, at times it was a pile of junk that Derick called "art." There's one photo floating around online of junk surrounding the door made into a sort of artsy shrine entrance displaying the Satya Yuga sign. In reality it was part of the complaint about blight on the sidewalk.

 

[LostOldUserName]

It's junk, courtesy of his highness Derick Ion. Every picture I've seen taken of that spot over the years has some kind of junk pile obstructing the rollup door.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.777...4!1sQLG_yLa1ERdZ_l-znbaw9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The door shown is not large enough for an RV. Rv's could be up to 13'6" (taller than that you need an oversize permit) but most are about 10 feet. The roll up door belonging to the repair shop is most likely tall enough. My guess is that there is another door.

 

[Spellbound]

Wish I could make this show up larger, but it does not from my tablet.


Interior layout describes the maze effect of finding one's way out
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...to-spot-region%AEion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

second photo is of the actual interior, same layout), from http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ot-region%AEion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[CeCeMoore]

Thanks for all the input about the roll-up doors. I can't help but go over and over it all in my head, wishing there had been other alternatives for those trying to escape. Since people had time to text their loved ones, they would have had time if only...

Going back to the person who reportedly jumped from the second story (since that is where everyone seems to have been except Peter)...
There appeared to have been metal mesh on all of the upper widows, so I wonder how they got out. I wouldn't think it would be fatal jumping from only the second floor, so I am very surprised we haven't heard more about this.
Also, early on, I read a report that some people made it to the roof, but then I never heard anything more about that. Was there ever a confirmation of that? If that were true, I would have expected more to try to jump. It wasn't terribly high.

 

[Spellbound]

I finally found a picture of the roll up door, although I have not confirmed how recently it looked this way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/us/the-oakland-fire-delving-into-what-happened-and-why.html

 

[mom2four717]

The door shown is not large enough for an RV. Rv's could be up to 13'6" (taller than that you need an oversize permit) but most are about 10 feet. The roll up door belonging to the repair shop is most likely tall enough. My guess is that there is another door.

I am thinking they are more the vintage towed trailer/airstream type. I would love to see pictures of the set up.

Maybe??

 

[cvaldez1975]

there are many low income housing in Oakland but the lists are LONG. I mean LOOOOONG.

Good question.

Ive been trying to think of what could help cities and communities such as this where the city doesnt want to throw people on the street and yet they cant just afford to build nice new apartments for tenants that have little or no money.

This city may already have something like this where the city subsidies a large portion of the rent in rent houses that are part of the program. The "subsidies rent program" is for low income families that meet an income requirement. The rents are very reasonable because the city picks up a large portion of the tab.

But I think the rules of programs like this are for single "families" and the families cannot sublease to others. Which brings up one of the reasons people wanted to live at the "ghost ship" was a little more than just needing an inexpensive place to live. There seems to be some desire to want to live together in more of a group setting of like minded individuals. Which makes this situation unique and has unique challenges for a city.

Im not sure of the numbers of communal type living structures that the city is currently dealing with. If the numbers are significant then one thought that occurred to me is I have to wonder if something I read about in an unrelated case could maybe help. Shipping containers possibly could be used and made to be fitted to be both safe and also allow the communal aspect of the living quarters. Thinking along the lines of bringing in the containers inside of a single large structure but have them each setup side by side with a fire wall between each one which could be material that would help prevent the spreading of a fire from one unit to the next.

Not sure if that is even feasible or would have other drawbacks but the thought of the shipping containers being made of steel kept me wondering if they could be considered to help a city out to provide inexpensive group type living that the people want and yet make it safer for them and still affordable.

Regardless of how units are setup the use of a true fire wall is critical. I worked home construction a long time ago and when we built certain apartments we had to build each apartment unit with what we called a "fire wall". What this meant to us was the two apartments would not share a single side wall between them. What we would do is build a gap inbetween the apartments walls and so each apartment had their own ending side wall made of 2 X 6. There was a required gap inbetween the side walls of both apartments and we filled this gap with a fire retardant insulation material. This was done instead of having both apartments share a single 2X6 wall. Both apartments would have their own 2X6 side wall with a gap between them.

The fire wall gap served the purpose of helping to prevent a fire in one apartment from easily spreading to another. It also helped greatly with noise reduction from hearing neighbors. Keep in mind it did not totally prevent a fire from being able to ignite an adjacent apartment but it did help slow down a spreading fire with the hope that fire companies could come in time to put the fire out before it kept engulfing all the adjacent apartments.

There were rules we had to follow in the construction of these apartment units and these "fire walls" were part of our rules.

Tying that back to the shipping container group living idea. The key would be to not have the units be touching each other but have a gap of lets say 1-2 feet between each unit and then have that gap filled with some fire retardant insulated material. Combined with the steel walls it seems like this could be an effective anti fire living space and still provide group type living that some people may want in order to live with like minded people. It seems like it would also be somewhat affordable as compared to traditional apartment living. I dont know about that though as the costs of setting these up may end up being more than I realize.

Anyway this was just something I kept thinking of as I read two other unrelated cases and shipping containers were part of the cases.

No matter what the city ends up doing I would hope they consider all ideas from others and try to come up with some improvements to help prevent another tragedy such as this.

 

[Spellbound]

Photo 1: large roll up Exterior door. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...to-spot-region%AEion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Photo 2: beige building, says it is the warehouse but looks different to me. Is that a roll up door? "The exterior of 1305 31st Ave. in Oakland, identified on a Facebook invite as the address of the Golden Donna 100% Silk event where the fire broke out." http://www.laweekly.com/music/update-death-toll-now-stands-at-36-in-oakland-warehouse-fire-7680950

Photo 3: http://mobile.nytimes.com/images/10...e-what-we-know-about-the-warehouse-owner.html

 

[MsMarple]

The door shown is not large enough for an RV. Rv's could be up to 13'6" (taller than that you need an oversize permit) but most are about 10 feet. The roll up door belonging to the repair shop is most likely tall enough. My guess is that there is another door.

I looked a few days ago and couldn't find another rollup door and the NYT drawing doesn't even show the one door. I could have sworn I'd seen a second door somewhere. And also I'm thinking that the big door was obstructed from the inside also so it makes me wonder just how long ago Ion brought in the RVs and trailers.

I know that a few RVs were actually Airstream trailers, which are smaller. I haven't seen any info or pics of the other RVs so the sizes are anyone's guess. Maybe others here know?

Ah, okay I just found a photo of the side of the bulding and sure enough there's another big door. You were right.

 

[cvaldez1975]

this was the most poignant, heartbreaking article out of all the well written ones I have read so far :*(

Apologies if this was posted already.

The last hours of Oakland’s Ghost Ship warehouse

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12/11/oakland-fire-ghost-ship-last-hours/







Absolutely heartbreaking details.

 

[SophieRose]

there are many low income housing in Oakland but the lists are LONG. I mean LOOOOONG.

Back around 2010 I talked to this guy who works with the homeless and he said the waitlist for his particular Bay Area county was like thousands, years away. Probably much worse now.

Looks like the waitlists for Oakland are all closed, not taking anyone.

http://www.oakha.org/AffordableHousing/Pages/Wait-Lists.aspx

 

[human]

Back around 2010 I talked to this guy who works with the homeless and he said the waitlist for that particular Bay Area county was like thousands, years away. Probably much worse now.

Looks like the waitlists for Oakland are all closed, not taking anyone.

http://www.oakha.org/AffordableHousing/Pages/Wait-Lists.aspx

I worked with the homeless in my city as a teacher providing education until housing stabilization. The lists for housing were years as well but homeless people seemed to get some kind of priority. I wish I knew more but I had enough rules and paperwork of my own.

Taxpayers do not like to pay for the poor,They are demonized as the root of all problems.

But developers want a return on their investment. Someone had posted on here a building that had been made for artists that cost 37.6 million. How long would it take to recoup that investment with tenants paying something and the govt ( taxpayers) the rest?

Section 8 housing is private housing that the govt approves for low income. A lot of what I saw was horrible. I don't know how it could pass the rules. And the rules for tenants are that the tenant is allowed to only pay so much. If they could afford $1000 a month it would not matter if the limit was $800 set by the govt.

Govt housing is housing owned by the govt.

The money is the issue. Are taxpayers going to pony up the money?

 

[SophieRose]

I worked with the homeless in my city as a teacher providing education until housing stabilization. The lists for housing were years as well but homeless people seemed to get some kind of priority. I wish I knew more but I had enough rules and paperwork of my own.

Taxpayers do not like to pay for the poor,They are demonized as the root of all problems.

But developers want a return on their investment. Someone had posted on here a building that had been made for artists that cost 37.6 million. How long would it take to recoup that investment with tenants paying something and the govt ( taxpayers) the rest?

Section 8 housing is private housing that the govt approves for low income. A lot of what I saw was horrible. I don't know how it could pass the rules. And the rules for tenants are that the tenant is allowed to only pay so much. If they could afford $1000 a month it would not matter if the limit was $800 set by the govt.

Govt housing is housing owned by the govt.

The money is the issue. Are taxpayers going to pony up the money?

Maybe families have priority, but this man worked mostly with single people, mostly men. He said not only were they drug addicts, alcoholics, mentally ill, vets, just out of work, working poor, but a large number were ex-cons.

Portland Oregon has t that all apartments are available for housing vouchers, not sure if it's the enire state I think it started last year or this year. Can't find the article I read earlier this year but found this. In California and I think most states the apartment or home owner decides if they wan to accept housing vouchers. There is a large penalty in Portand for refusing voucher.

http://koin.com/2016/09/13/low-income-housing-vouchers-now-available/

The Section 8 vouchers can be applied to any apartment building in Portland if residents meet the necessary income requirements.

 

[kdg411]

Photo 1: large roll up Exterior door. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...to-spot-region%AEion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Photo 2: beige building, says it is the warehouse but looks different to me. Is that a roll up door? "The exterior of 1305 31st Ave. in Oakland, identified on a Facebook invite as the address of the Golden Donna 100% Silk event where the fire broke out." http://www.laweekly.com/music/update-death-toll-now-stands-at-36-in-oakland-warehouse-fire-7680950

Photo 3: http://mobile.nytimes.com/images/10...e-what-we-know-about-the-warehouse-owner.html

OK, someone help me out. I'm confused by those photo's. That 1st picture that has the mural on the roll up door has a set of windows to the right which don't exist (look at google maps) and the address on the door of that picture is 1190, not 1315.

 

[kdg411]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Among-Oakland-s-dozens-of-artist-warehouses-is-10712732.php



Ok the article above references a different warehouse in Oakland (2813 Magnolia St), not the former 'Ghost Ship'.

 

[Spellbound]

OK, someone help me out. I'm confused by those photo's. That 1st picture that has the mural on the roll up door has a set of windows to the right which don't exist (look at google maps) and the address on the door of that picture is 1190, not 1315.

My eyes are not as good as yours ... I could not read an address. the article said it was the same place, but I would agree it may not be. I have studied pics over and over and could not see that blue painting anywhere --- I had thought it probably was on a side that we never saw.

Aargh --- sincere apology --- it definitely is the wrong warehouse!

Shall I have request it be removed to avoid further confusion? I think I will.

 

[Spellbound]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Among-Oakland-s-dozens-of-artist-warehouses-is-10712732.php

Ok the article above references a different warehouse in Oakland (2813 Magnolia St), not the former 'Ghost Ship'.

I should have read all posts before I replied to the last one. My mistake, obviously.

Again, shall I ask mods to remove the error pics? Yes --- I will ask.

 

[kdg411]

My eyes are not as good as yours ... I could not read an address. the article said it was the same place, but I would agree it may not be. I have studied pics over and over and could not see that blue painting anywhere --- I had thought it probably was on a side that we never saw.

Shall I have request it be removed to avoid further confusion?

No, I found the article, don't worry, the link to that article is relevant to this thread Here's the link

 

[Spellbound]

No, I found the article, don't worry, the link to that article is relevant to this thread Here's the link

Thanks ... I did request mods remove the pic that is wrong. (That isn't the same article I saw earlier at that link. ???)