GUILTY CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #3

[DexterMorgan]

No worries Git1. We are still here for you. Can't wait to have you back full time. But take your time. Much love.

 

[rascal32]

Definitely not easy to "kick" anyone out. I admit I'm not familiar with laws there but in Texas it takes forever even to get squatters off a property much less renters. And permits?? How would enforcers even know there was a business or residence there if no one had applied for license or permits. From everything I've read I think this was a horrible tragedy and innocent people died. But who's to blame? The owner? The renters? The city? The adults who chose to go to this rave? I'm sure I will get a lot of negative feed back but this seems like a horrific tragic accident. Here in Texas they have "barn parties" in actual barns, with bands , hay around, sometimes its damp and I'm sure a fire hazard. But people still choose to go. As far as people living in the spaces illegally.. what does this have to do with the fire? We don't know yet what caused the fire do we? I'm not saying this renter has no liability but murder? I just don't see murder here.


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[human]

Definitely not easy to "kick" anyone out. I admit I'm not familiar with laws there but in Texas it takes forever even to get squatters off a property much less renters. And permits?? How would enforcers even know there was a business or residence there if no one had applied for license or permits. From everything I've read I think this was a horrible tragedy and innocent people died. But who's to blame? The owner? The renters? The city? The adults who chose to go to this rave? I'm sure I will get a lot of negative feed back but this seems like a horrific tragic accident. Here in Texas they have "barn parties" in actual barns, with bands , hay around, sometimes its damp and I'm sure a fire hazard. But people still choose to go. As far as people living in the spaces illegally.. what does this have to do with the fire? We don't know yet what caused the fire do we? I'm not saying this renter has no liability but murder? I just don't see murder here.


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Derick lived there with his crap. He collected rent for a structure that was not fit for habitation. He made money from having the raves there.

It does not matter how the fire started, There was no way for people to get out of that hell hole. And no protections such as sprinklers or exit signs or even exits that would lead directly out.

An accident? I don't know what word I am looking for but accident it is not,Reckless endangerment that results in the loss of life? Criminal endangerment?

 

[DexterMorgan]

Derick lived there with his crap. He collected rent for a structure that was not fit for habitation. He made money from having the raves there.

It does not matter how the fire started, There was no way for people to get out of that hell hole. And no protections such as sprinklers or exit signs or even exits that would lead directly out.

An accident? I don't know what word I am looking for but accident it is not,Reckless endangerment that results in the loss of life? Criminal endangerment?

He should be charged with 36 counts of negligent homicide at the minimum.

Especially since he was making money from every angle while being misleading. So I agree.

 

[Lilibet]

Definitely not easy to "kick" anyone out. I admit I'm not familiar with laws there but in Texas it takes forever even to get squatters off a property much less renters. And permits?? How would enforcers even know there was a business or residence there if no one had applied for license or permits. From everything I've read I think this was a horrible tragedy and innocent people died. But who's to blame? The owner? The renters? The city? The adults who chose to go to this rave? I'm sure I will get a lot of negative feed back but this seems like a horrific tragic accident. Here in Texas they have "barn parties" in actual barns, with bands , hay around, sometimes its damp and I'm sure a fire hazard. But people still choose to go. As far as people living in the spaces illegally.. what does this have to do with the fire? We don't know yet what caused the fire do we? I'm not saying this renter has no liability but murder? I just don't see murder here.

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BBM

I won't give you negative feedback, and I do agree with your comments about squatters and permits.

But I will disagree that this was an accident. Not being negative, just factual. By definition quoted below it is not an accident:

An accident, also known as an unintentional injury, is an undesirable, incidental and unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.
Underlined by me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident

While DIA did not intend or plan for this fire to happen, he could/should have recognized the hazard (and not laughed at people who pointed it out to him) and taken steps to prevent it. Willfully filling this warehouse with junk, renting to people, and having dance parties did not happen accidentally and showed callous disregard for safety and human life (even his own and his family's). The primary blame is on DIA and MA.

I'm sure we could find ways to divide up the blame so some falls on the artist renters and partygoers, but why? They are victims of this egotistical couple who followed their dream at the expense of everyone impacted by this fire, including their own children. The bottom line remains...DIA and MA created the environment, knowing the danger, and invited people to live and party there. No Ghost Ship, no fire, no 36 deaths. Period.

A murder charge isn't possible because there was no intent to kill these people. But manslaughter is certainly an appropriate charge IMO.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Derick lived there with his crap. He collected rent for a structure that was not fit for habitation. He made money from having the raves there.

It does not matter how the fire started, There was no way for people to get out of that hell hole. And no protections such as sprinklers or exit signs or even exits that would lead directly out.

An accident? I don't know what word I am looking for but accident it is not,Reckless endangerment that results in the loss of life? Criminal endangerment?

Not to mention a number of friends, renters, visitors have said he was repeatedly warned about the condition of the place and that it was a fire hazard.

He should be in prison..

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[Spellbound]

Gitana,
Our thoughts & prayers have been with you and your family all of these terrible not-knowing-and-then-knowing days. You don't need to thank us any more than you already have. We know you would be right there for any of us, and have been when someone had to deal with pain & sorrow. Just take one day at a time, Gypsy Girl, and know that you are loved by many.

No worries Git1. We are still here for you. Can't wait to have you back full time. But take your time. Much love.

Gitana, I agree with these posters and believe all of us will understand if you do not reply to our PMs. There is no need for you to do that, as we already know you are going through the most stressful time one can imagine. We are here for you when you need us, and we know you have appreciated the support and love and prayers. That is quite enough. Do not add another stress to carry.

You are loved and we just wish we could make this go away, be a bad dream, or at least make your path lighter. Lean on us when you need, let us express our reaching out to you, and take care of yourself above anything else.

:grouphug:

 

[Jax49]

Lawyers For Oakland Ghost Ship Co-Op Founder Blame Fire On Gov’t Agencies


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ip-co-op-founder-blame-fire-on-govt-agencies/

Attorneys for master tenant Derick Ion Almena at the Ghost Ship warehouse in Oakland where 36 people died in a fire Dec. 2 issued a statement Monday saying he didn’t engage in criminal misconduct and alleging that government agencies are responsible for the fire.

High profile attorney Tony Serra and colleagues Jeffrey Krasnoff and Kyndra Miller also alleged that the Alameda County District Attorney’s Office, which is conducting a criminal investigation into the fire, has a conflict of interest.

BBM

No comment from me--I don't need a WS vacation.

 

[LostOldUserName]

Lawyers For Oakland Ghost Ship Co-Op Founder Blame Fire On Gov’t Agencies


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ip-co-op-founder-blame-fire-on-govt-agencies/



BBM

No comment from me--I don't need a WS vacation.

I would proably join you on the vacay!

 

[Jax49]

ETA: On second thought, there are people who should NOT read this. If you're related to a victim I don't think you will want to know these details.


IMO, a must read, but I should have had a drink or three first.

****

Survivor who jumped from Ghost Ship window recalls fire horror

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Survivor-who-jumped-from-Ghost-Ship-window-10805005.php

"I shouldn't be alive, and I've lit 36 candles every day since," Aaron Marin said, referring to the 36 people who lost their lives in the Ghost Ship fire. He has returned to his Portland, Ore., home, but is deeply shaken by his experience in Oakland.

Just before the Ghost Ship lost power, a makeshift staircase turned into a confused bottleneck.

A few people ran up the narrow passageway from the ground floor to flee the flames downstairs, hampering a much larger group trying to crowd-surf down.

Not far from the mass, Aaron Marin scanned the second floor of the warehouse.“We all just looked at each other and knew we were trapped,” said Marin, 45, one of the last people to escape the Oakland building as it was consumed by flames.

With just Christmas lights illuminating the room, he stumbled through thick smoke, clawed his way behind an inflatable projection screen, and jumped from a window to a patch of mud below.

 

[Lilibet]

ETA: On second thought, there are people who should NOT read this. If you're related to a victim I don't think you will want to know these details.


IMO, a must read, but I should have had a drink or three first.

****

Survivor who jumped from Ghost Ship window recalls fire horror

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Survivor-who-jumped-from-Ghost-Ship-window-10805005.php

Horrifying. Criminal. No other words.

 

[Lilibet]

Lawyers For Oakland Ghost Ship Co-Op Founder Blame Fire On Gov’t Agencies


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ip-co-op-founder-blame-fire-on-govt-agencies/

BBM

No comment from me--I don't need a WS vacation.

BBM

I don't need a vacation either, but I will say this:

I can guarantee you that if Oakland city agencies had banded together to evict Almena, these lawyers (or others like them) would have been the first in line to block the eviction. They would have accused the city of interfering with artistic expression, would have invoked parental rights, accused the city of heartlessly causing these artists to be homeless and would have used every tenant rights law on the books to prevent or delay the end of The Ghost Ship. If they lost, they would have appealed and kept appealing.

If this fire had happened while attorneys were waging a lengthy legal battle to protect Almena from eviction, would they hold themselves partly responsible for this fire and these 36 deaths too? Of course not!

No matter how hard anyone tries to turn themselves into a legal pretzel to make Almena out to be innocent and the big, bad government responsible for this fire, I will NEVER accept that.

The Ghost Ship was the work of DIA and MA. They took credit for creating this "magical" space before the fire and would have fought to keep it. They now need to take responsibility for its destruction and the destruction of 36 precious lives. But with lawyers like these enabling them to carry on their ego-driven, conscienceless lives they will fight this to a bitter end...and they will find a way to blame the victims.

Stopping before I'm sent on vacation.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Welp. City officials are not off the hook either imo. Because that would pretty much state that it is okay to turn a vacant warehouse into anything you want without being regulated or taken to court.

 

[human]

ey

Welp. City officials are not off the hook either imo. Because that would pretty much state that it is okay to turn a vacant warehouse into anything you want without being regulated or taken to court.

How would they know unless they were given a permit? Does anyone know ehat goes on in your home?

 

[human]

Did Derick apply for a permit? Did Derick tell people to pretend they were not living there?

 

[gitana1]

On the plane back to Oakland. It's strange but I think this tragedy has changed my family in unexpected ways. I don't care about so many things I used to. So much that mattered doesn't seem to for some reaso.
I wish you all could've known Jennifer. She had such a musical voice in a way. Well, a musical laugh. She was a great person to go anywhere with. Excited
and joyful and interested about most everything. And a total morning person which I am not.
She had a lot of style too. Always looked amazing. (Also unlike me). She was like a sexy goth girl. Knew style.
And just so loving. So compassionate. She wasn't just some quiet wallflower though. She could be stubborn and she would stick if she felt she needed something or if something wasn't right. She stood up for herself.
I miss her. I feel regret about certain things. About taking her for granted.
And after I found she and my brother had separated, I wanted to send her an email telling her that I love her no matter what. But I was a bit upset about certain things and didn't do it. I thought I had time.

 

[human]

On the plane back to Oakland. It's strange but I think this tragedy has changed my family in unexpected ways. I don't care about so many things I used to. So much that mattered doesn't seem to for some reaso.
I wish you all could've known Jennifer. She had such a musical voice in a way. Well, a musical laugh. She was a great person to go anywhere with. Excited
and joyful and interested about most everything. And a total morning person which I am not.
She had a lot of style too. Always looked amazing. (Also unlike me). She was like a sexy goth girl. Knew style.
And just so loving. So compassionate. She wasn't just some quiet wallflower though. She could be stubborn and she would stick if she felt she needed something or if something wasn't right. She stood up for herself.
I miss her. I feel regret about certain things. About taking her for granted.
And after I found she and my brother had separated, I wanted to send her an email telling her that I love her no matter what. But I was a bit upset about certain things and didn't do it. I thought I had time.

I bet that you will do things in Jennifer's memory. I don't know what, but I think that is the kind of person you are. Her specialness will live on in whatever it is that you accomplish. Maybe just a smile and hello to everyone you meet. Who knows. But her impact will translate through you somehow.

 

[Spellbound]

Gitana, it is good to share these things about Jennifer, but please do not beat yourself up with regrets. If Jennifer was the type of person I think she was, she knew what was in your heart. Whatever happened between your brother and his wife does not negate the effect each had on the other or those who loved them both. We all carry baggage we wish we could erase and do over.

:hug:

 

[McMunn]

ETA: On second thought, there are people who should NOT read this. If you're related to a victim I don't think you will want to know these details.


IMO, a must read, but I should have had a drink or three first.

****

Survivor who jumped from Ghost Ship window recalls fire horror

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Survivor-who-jumped-from-Ghost-Ship-window-10805005.php

Sometime after 11 p.m., the smell of burning rubber got him out of the studio and halfway down a staircase in the back of the warehouse that led to living spaces.

On a landing of the staircase he ran into a Ghost Ship resident, Bob Mule, who thought there was a fire downstairs but wanted to come back to collect a few art pieces. They briefly investigated a lightbulb they remembered had been going on and off, thinking it might have something to do with the fire, before they parted ways, with Mule going down the stairs and Marin back up the way he came.

This part of his account really bothers me. This means that Bob Mule knew that there was a fire and was coming back to get his art? Maybe I'm misreading things, but it sounds like he didn't make any effort to alert the others upstairs as to how to get out. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Gitana, it is good to share these things about Jennifer, but please do not beat yourself up with regrets. If Jennifer was the type of person I think she was, she knew what was in your heart. Whatever happened between your brother and his wife does not negate the effect each had on the other or those who loved them both. We all carry baggage we wish we could erase and do over.

:hug:

Agree. Git1. You lived mega miles away and had life happening as well. So don't beat yourself up.

But thanks for sharing her persona here. May she live eternal happiness.