GUILTY CA - Michelle Hoang Thi Le, 26, Hayward, 27 May 2011

[Mox]

Niles at night Palomar during day.
Lots of garbage on Palomar road

 

[cluciano63]

This case could be a first, but I have never heard LE call a case a homicide and the person turned out to be alive. Unless it comes out otherwise, I have to believe they know what they are talking about it. That is a serious claim to make and no LE department wants more homicides on their books then they already have.

 

[Herding Cats]

(Warning: slightly graphic content below)

In re: determining a homicide: there are some indications on occasion which lead someone to conclude that the victim is no longer alive. For instance, the amount of blood, or tissue necessary for life (brain, heart, et cetera), or a combo of both. I recall several cases where death was determined to have occurred from brain tissue discovered at a crime scene.

In re: the housekeeping. I am unclear as to the timing. Is there a clear timeline? Who asked the housekeeping to clean? It may be that housekeeping was called in after the crime but before the crime was reported; someone may have reported a large pool of blood in the parking lot, assuming that it was a patient who came in to the ER brought in by a friend and not necessarily an ambulance. So it may be that the call for housekeeping came before anyone realized that a crime had taken place (and again, I don't know the timing...that would clear this up, I think...).

Where is she???

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Columbo]

(Warning: slightly graphic content below)

In re: determining a homicide: there are some indications on occasion which lead someone to conclude that the victim is no longer alive. For instance, the amount of blood, or tissue necessary for life (brain, heart, et cetera), or a combo of both. I recall several cases where death was determined to have occurred from brain tissue discovered at a crime scene.

In re: the housekeeping. I am unclear as to the timing. Is there a clear timeline? Who asked the housekeeping to clean? It may be that housekeeping was called in after the crime but before the crime was reported; someone may have reported a large pool of blood in the parking lot, assuming that it was a patient who came in to the ER brought in by a friend and not necessarily an ambulance. So it may be that the call for housekeeping came before anyone realized that a crime had taken place (and again, I don't know the timing...that would clear this up, I think...).

Where is she???

Best-
Herding Cats

bolded by me.

Herding Cats, this is exactly what I was wondering. It seemed as if that any time a large amount of blood is found, there should be some kind of report to LE before the blood is cleaned up. But who knows? I'd like to know exactly what the timeline is.

 

[Herding Cats]

bolded by me.

Herding Cats, this is exactly what I was wondering. It seemed as if that any time a large amount of blood is found, there should be some kind of report to LE before the blood is cleaned up. But who knows? I'd like to know exactly what the timeline is.

Problem is, you sort of expect puddles of blood at a hospital. I regularly walked over blood "puddles" (they were dry, usually) on my way in to clinicals (I walked through the ER parking lot...'nuff said).

It would be normal, routine even, to send out housekeeping to the parking lot to clean up something like that...and if they didn't know it was a crime scene, then...well...HK was just doing their job, I suppose.

It does depend on who called out HK, and what time. If there was no way of knowing if a crime took place, then I just can't fault them. And it would explain why LE is relying more on computer/vids, as well as the car (a secondary crime scene) to make a determination of facts rather than having a primary crime scene to work.

I don't think HK would intentionally clean up a crime scene...unless it had already been worked. I suspect we will find out that a call came in to the hospital about blood in the parking lot, and as per routine, HK went out and cleaned it up, thinking no more of it than just another cleaning job.

As to who made the call, how the scene was discovered...that may be more intereseting in the long run.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[cluciano63]

I would think if housekeeping found enough blood to cause LE to believe she must be dead (it that is why they believe it) they would call police, as that would be very ususual even in a hospital setting. This was in a parking structure and someone bleeding that badly would likely stop in front of emergency.

 

[infamous]

(Warning: slightly graphic content below)

In re: determining a homicide: there are some indications on occasion which lead someone to conclude that the victim is no longer alive. For instance, the amount of blood, or tissue necessary for life (brain, heart, et cetera), or a combo of both. I recall several cases where death was determined to have occurred from brain tissue discovered at a crime scene.

In re: the housekeeping. I am unclear as to the timing. Is there a clear timeline? Who asked the housekeeping to clean? It may be that housekeeping was called in after the crime but before the crime was reported; someone may have reported a large pool of blood in the parking lot, assuming that it was a patient who came in to the ER brought in by a friend and not necessarily an ambulance. So it may be that the call for housekeeping came before anyone realized that a crime had taken place (and again, I don't know the timing...that would clear this up, I think...).

Where is she???

Best-
Herding Cats

You have a point that LE probably found some kind of evidence, not just blood, to lead them to believe that she may have past.

If you look at Google Maps, that parking garage where Michelle went missing is across the street from the main hospital. If someone was bleeding, I'd believe they would go to the main parking garage that looks near the hospital. Or maybe not park at all and go straight to the front of ER.

 

[Herding Cats]

I would think if housekeeping found enough blood to cause LE to believe she must be dead (it that is why they believe it) they would call police, as that would be very ususual even in a hospital setting. This was in a parking structure and someone bleeding that badly would likely stop in front of emergency.

I hear you...but a lot of times, folks (especially gang members) will transport their own injured/dying, and drop them off "at the hospital", and not necessarily at the ER. That could lead to a whole lot of blood pooling somewhere, you know? I've seen it happen several times in my hospital, and again, stepped over more than I can count in my walks to/from clinicals.

And further, HK doesn't know from crime scenes...it always amazed me how much blood an ER room could accumulate, then the patient is transported to OR or ICU or wherever, and HK would come in, clean up, and blammo, it's as good as new. Add to the blood fluids that were either coming out of a patient or that we were trying to get into a patient, or sponges, lap cloths, and instruments...HK doesn't look closely, I don't think...they just clean.

HK is not trained in crime scene detection; they clean so much stuff up, it's pretty routine for them to deal with lots of blood and stuff, and not think it's a crime scene (consider an OR who has a bad bleed; it goes all over - all over! and still the patient is alive...).

We think of crime scenes, because that's what we think about while on this site. But most folks who are in HK don't come here, you know? It's our reality, but it's not the reality for lots more folks, and it doesn't surprise me that there were no questions asked by HK...and if there were any questions, what could they be told? Michelle wasn't considered missing right away, you know?

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I can't see HK thinking it's a crime scene, knowing what they see on a regular, consistent basis. God love them for what they do, too...it's a horrible job.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Columbo]

Would HK have been looking in the garage for things to clean up? Seems like the blood would have been reported by someone parking their car (a visitor, patient,etc) since it wasn't known to be a crime scene until later.

Does HK have assigned routes they follow daily and clean up whatever needs to be cleaned?

 

[Herding Cats]

Would HK have been looking in the garage for things to clean up? Seems like the blood would have been reported by someone parking their car (a visitor, patient,etc) since it wasn't known to be a crime scene until later.

Does HK have assigned routes they follow daily and clean up whatever needs to be cleaned?

And that, my friend Columbo, is the question I have. I know at my hospital, rooms were regularly cleaned while a patient was there, but after they were discharged, the room got disinfected. I know in our ER, there were always crews there, working (we had a seriously busy ER; often, "small" emergencies like a broken leg are not seen for 24 hours, because of all the life threatening emergencies we get going through).

I also know that groundskeeping, a different part of housekeeping, would clean the parking lots with blowers and the gardeners were always present, working.

However, I know that housekeeping did not go into the garages for the most part.

So, I suspect, this puddle of blood was noticed/called in by someone as needing to be cleaned. Since the groundskeeping staff is not equipped to deal with blood (special agents are used to decon a bloody area), then it had to have been housekeeping which got a call...and took care of the puddle of blood.

If I were LE, I'd be checking out who called HK, when the call came in, who was assigned to the task, and when it was carried out. This would do several things: identify if the caller was male/female, narrow the time of abduction/assault, give an estimate of what blood was lost, and so forth. It would be a great asset in the investigation, and I figure since I've tought of it, LE must've already thought of it, too.

And honestly, I think LE is most likely basing their statement of homicide on the car (secondary crime scene), as the primary crime scene was cleaned up.

It will be interesting to see how this detail pans out...

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Mox]

90 % of the public doesnt know Kaiser has 2 garages. the second one is a block away.
I believe that is the employee Parking lot. That is the one they believe the crime happended at.
I shopped at foodmax which is in front of the Garage for years and didnt even know the garage existed. The emergency is on the other block. The chance of blood from ER is
slim to none. It would be more work to take a gangbanger there instead of emergency.
Emergency has a easy street access that is wear you take someone that is injured.
With out being seen.

 

[Mox]

The main hospital garage you can just drive in past securtiy. the other garage they have people is suits at the enterance. Im to chicken to see if I can drive in that garage.

 

[Columbo]

And that, my friend Columbo, is the question I have. I know at my hospital, rooms were regularly cleaned while a patient was there, but after they were discharged, the room got disinfected. I know in our ER, there were always crews there, working (we had a seriously busy ER; often, "small" emergencies like a broken leg are not seen for 24 hours, because of all the life threatening emergencies we get going through).

I also know that groundskeeping, a different part of housekeeping, would clean the parking lots with blowers and the gardeners were always present, working.

However, I know that housekeeping did not go into the garages for the most part.

So, I suspect, this puddle of blood was noticed/called in by someone as needing to be cleaned. Since the groundskeeping staff is not equipped to deal with blood (special agents are used to decon a bloody area), then it had to have been housekeeping which got a call...and took care of the puddle of blood.

If I were LE, I'd be checking out who called HK, when the call came in, who was assigned to the task, and when it was carried out. This would do several things: identify if the caller was male/female, narrow the time of abduction/assault, give an estimate of what blood was lost, and so forth. It would be a great asset in the investigation, and I figure since I've tought of it, LE must've already thought of it, too.

And honestly, I think LE is most likely basing their statement of homicide on the car (secondary crime scene), as the primary crime scene was cleaned up.

It will be interesting to see how this detail pans out...

Best-
Herding Cats

bolded by me.

Really interesting, thanks, Herding Cats. It just occurred to me: would a blood spill be considered a Hazmat condition? Of course, I guess in a hospital or on hospital property, blood is an everyday occurrence (for lack of a better way of saying it). I was just thinking it might require special treatment but I am sure HK is all trained in taking care of that. Sorry if I am going 'round in circles on this!

 

[jedi]

Looks like Michelle's brother and cousin is out on Ponderosa ct today with a tv crew. They're knocking on doors as I type.

 

[cluciano63]

I am anxious to hear back from dLynn, she plans to try to find out from Housekeeping how it came about that they were asked to clean up the blood. I hope all forensics and photos had already been completed...

I am wracking by brain trying to figure out what LE saw on cameras and got from cell phones that drew them to conclude she is dead...they said it was the combination of blood, video and phone evidence, I believe?

 

[Columbo]

I am anxious to hear back from dLynn, she plans to try to find out from Housekeeping how it came about that they were asked to clean up the blood. I hope all forensics and photos had already been completed...

I am wracking by brain trying to figure out what LE saw on cameras and got from cell phones that drew them to conclude she is dead...they said it was the combination of blood, video and phone evidence, I believe?

I wonder if the phone evidence could be a call from whoever set her up, or arranged to meet her in the parking garage? I guess I shouldn't say "set her up" since it isn't known as fact, but I believe that must be what happened. Maybe there is a text message. Would the actual message still be in her phone so LE could read it?

The video has to be the garage's security camera.

 

[cluciano63]

I wonder if the phone evidence could be a call from whoever set her up, or arranged to meet her in the parking garage? I guess I shouldn't say "set her up" since it isn't known as fact, but I believe that must be what happened. Maybe there is a text message. Would the actual message still be in her phone so LE could read it?

The video has to be the garage's security camera.

But what could be on the video I wonder to show she is dead...and yet not yield a suspect...or plate number...which I assume they don't have don't have, but maybe they do? Is the woman who was named a suspect, a POI, or what?

I don't know if texts could be retrieved unless they have the actual phones of POI's...

 

[Columbo]

But what could be on the video I wonder to show she is dead...and yet not yield a suspect...or plate number...which I assume they don't have don't have, but maybe they do? Is the woman who was named a suspect, a POI, or what?

I don't know if texts could be retrieved unless they have the actual phones of POI's...

My thought is that the video shows a license plate number, if not more,and the blood evidence has tissue in it that would be evidence of a murder. Those are just my theories, of course. GE was named a POI, but not formally a "suspect" as far as I know.

 

[DLynn]

Wow thanks everyone for keeping up the speculation and ideas here. It's been a long day.
I have lots of info...some ideas....and a strategy for what I can do this week.

Met at 2:00 for a mass flyer distribution. I was able to secure a spot for the family at our local K-Mart with manager approval. Alot of news crews were there, wich shows alot of media interest, This is great.
Mark Klass was there, I got to meet him ,very nice fellow and he gave me some ideas..I'll expand on later.

So the family had 2.500 color flyers made up. There were about 30 people there I'd say. I got to meet Michelles aunt from San Diego and some more cousins. This is logistically very hard for them because they live in San Diego. The aunt raised them after Michael and Michelles mother died of breast cancer 12 years ago. So they need more help.

Depsite limited resources, it was good to see Michelles flyers popping up around town. I took the area closest to where she disappeared and put up flyers on all the street poles and local businesses. I would say 95% of the people knew about Michelle, so that was a good sign.
Michaels family took the area where her car was found, and they planned to go door to door. Maybe some new evidence will come up after their walk today.

While out canvassing, I ran into one of Michelles sorierty sisters who mentioned there is "loose talk" that Michelle may have been taken to the Oakland Hills area. Now I don't know if LE plans to search there but my understanding is that friends do plan to take flyers up into that area too. This new news makes me wonder if the first cell phone ping was from Oakland, instead of vice versa. The Oakland Hills has some very wooded areas.

So as for my strategy for this week, I talked with Mr. Klass and he said I should shower Kaiser with flyers. He was shocked there were no flyers anywhere in the garage or surrounding area. I tried to put up flyers there, but my friend in security said wait till tommorrow and he will email the admin today. He's a great guy, he will help.

Since I've gotten a little closer to the family I feel more confident with their support and Mr. Klass's support to approach admin myself tommorrow on their behalf to get to get some more visibility. I'm going to ask Kaiser if they can help with backing the nurses and drs. doing their own mass flyer handout supported by Kaisers funds. They can surely pay for some flyers. This is the least Kaiser can do,because I know many nurses who would love to help find Michelle. Like Mr. Klass said, the family is not worried about suing Kaiser they just want to find her!!

Now on the garage. I WILL NEVER EVER PARK IN THAT GARAGE EVER AGAIN.I took a trip through there today and that garage is just downright creepy. It's 4 stories or so and today was very empty. Someone could have killed me and no one would see a thing. It's big and there are cuddies that are dark. I could see how someone could have gotten killed in there. Perhaps there were not many people around when she went out at 7, just like today. Very creepy. Honestly driving through there gave me a sinking feeling about Michelle.

So tommorrow I'm going to talk to my friend in HK. My thing is now that if they did find absolute evidence in that garage I think the family deserves to know the truth. They are holding onto hope that she is alive without any evidence to say otherwise. I think it would be more kind to the family to tell them if they had found massive amounts of blood that indicated death. Something,anything.

I don't want to see the family suffer anymore unnecessarily and I will do what I can to help them....

What a day, Sad but uplifting to see such wonderful community members who care about Michelle and want to find her too. I found people like this all day on my flyer walk.

 

[cluciano63]

Thanks for the update Dlynn and for helping Michelle's family. I am glad Mark Klaas is there as well.