CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #181
the generally accepted nomenclature to which we are both referring is "non verbal". But, yes, I give you a big yes for semantics. Non oral. Does anyone use that phrase? I honestly have never heard it used in, well, any sense.

I confess that I haven’t either. :( But my confusion, and that of others, was legitimate, I think. I appreciated your explanation.
 
  • #182
Read the link I posted in post #59.

The officers gun may in fact be the only weapon involved.

Let me ask this. Is using deadly force by anyone legal only if the person is being attacked by someone with a weapon?

If anyone can answer this can you please provide a link to California law that would apply to this case in particular. Thanks.

Here's the law:

"A defendant has to have a reasonable belief that he or someone else was in 'imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury'. Additionally, the defendant must also have believed that deadly force was necessary for defense and used no more force than necessary." Emphasis by me. Here's what California law says about self defense
 
  • #183
I thought the shooter was treated at the hospital and released. moo

ETA:

The Latest: Police say shooting came after man hit officer

This article is great because it keeps the updated material by time.

AT 9:55 am (Saturday) the part of the update read (BBM): Corona Police Lt. Jeff Edwards says the suspect was arguing with someone when he pulled out a gun and killed the man. Police detained the suspect, who told officers he had been injured and was taken to a hospital. It was not clear how the suspect was injured.

At 12pm on June 16 (Sunday): Los Angeles Police Officer Greg Kraft said Saturday that the officer was treated for minor injuries and released from a hospital.


*Notice how the language changed from suspect to officer.

At the outset, LE was not informed that he had become unconscious or was struck by the victim until he was interviewed. When seen in hospital, the shooter had minor injuries it is reported. Very different than the lawyers comment about losing consciousness which would not necessarily be described as minor given that Costco has concrete flooring.
 
  • #184
I'd like to know what his disability is. Could he have something that caused him to meltdown in public? And that was considered a threat to someone armed who was there with his own family?

It's sad but people with cognitive, neurological or mental health issues are at higher risk of being shot by police for things that others would not be shot for. Especially if they're men and large.

In the LA Times article a relative described him as intellectually disabled and non-verbal but very gentle. (Costco shooting: Man killed by off-duty officer had an intellectual disability, cousin says) Such a tragedy. I hope this young man's parents recover and can help with the description of the incident. I have grave concerns about how "endangered" this shooter felt.
 
  • #185
So you're saying that a person has to suffer a certain degree of physical injury before lethal force is allowed by law?

I thought that using lethal force is to prevent injury. JMO

No. The words "reasonably feared" clearly shows that it's not about the harm actually suffered but what the defender reasonably believes could happen.

So if a five year old comes at an adult with a raised fist, the adult has the right to grab the kid's fist to stop the child from hitting them. They don't have the right to give the kid a full punch in the face. It's not reasonable to assume that a child that age could cause much harm.

Likewise, if someone is unarmed, with no weapon at all but their fists, and the defender is armed, it is unlikely that a person needs to reasonably fear being shot or stabbed to death, such that they need to use deadly force.

If the attacker is grabbing for their gun, then shooting the weapon at the person may be reasonable, because it could be reasonably believed the attacker is able to access the weapon and use it to harm the defender.

However, unless a person is not staying down in such a situation, 6-7 shots is pretty obviously excessive.

I think it's not hard to understand unless one is clouded by bias.

But let me put it this way - if the Costco surveillance showed reasonable force, those tapes would have been immediately released. LE would not want to allow passions to become further inflamed.
 
Last edited:
  • #186
No. The words "reasonably feared" clearly shows that it's not about the harm actually suffered but what the defender reasonably believes could happen.

So if a five year old comes at an adult with a raised fist, the adult has the right to grab the kid's fist to stop the child from hitting them. They don't have the right to give the kid a full punch in the face. It's not reasonable to assume that a child that age could cause much harm.

Likewise, if someone is unarmed, with no weapon at all but their fists, and the defender is armed, it is unlikely that a person needs to reasonably fear being shot or stabbed to death, such that they need to use deadly force.

If the person is grabbing for their gun, then shooting the weapon at the person may be reasonable, because it could be reasonably believed to be able to access the weapon and use it to harm the defender.

However, unless a person is not staying down in such a situation, 6-7 shots is pretty obviously excessive.

I think it's not hard to understand unless one is clouded by bias.

But let me put it this way - if the Costco surveillance showed reasonable force, those tapes would have been immediately released. LE would not want to allow passions to become further inflamed.
I think you're right about the video- if was a clear cut case of self defense we would have seen it by now.
 
  • #187
But let me put it this way - if the Costco surveillance showed reasonable force, those tapes would have been immediately released. LE would not want to allow passions to become further inflamed.

SBM. Absolutely, would have seen the video. Even if the shooter felt threatened by this man, the fact that (according to his lawyer) he was shooting (six to seven shots) from the ground up and hit this man's parents means that he could have killed more than just the man he felt threatened by. It seems over zealous to say the least.
 
  • #188
Well, that's exactly right. If you believe what the source says, then only Mr. French attacked the cop. Source doesn't say parents were doing anything. Under which law is shooing of the parents justified? And I am really curious how supposedly non-verbal man can be involved in an argument.

I'm assuming his parents tried to stop the officer from continuing to shoot their son so they got in front of the gun and were shot. Or they were hit by stray bullets. I don't suspect the officer meant to shoot them.
 
Last edited:
  • #189
Are you seriously kidding me? That would have been at the TOP of every story if it were the case. The police department would have been shouting that from the rooftops. Even if it was a pocket knife.

Or even if it "looked" like a weapon.
 
  • #190

In that case the video must show him being knocked to the ground, not moving, while the attacked continued to beat him, then he came to, as he was being beaten, and was somehow able to, after being unconscious and still being beaten, have the wherewithal and physical ability (because when you;re being beaten, your body is being moved around quite a bit), to reach for, grab, 🤬🤬🤬🤬, aim and fire his weapon.

Also, where did his child go when he was knocked unconscious? How on earth was a 1 1/2 year old left totally uninjured and in zero need of medical attention if his father was holding him when knocked out and laid out on the floor?

It does sound far-fetched to me.
 
  • #191
That's a good point. What if the officer was down on the ground with his young child beside him.

If French began to kick him,nearly missing his child, would that be grounds for using lethal force in stopping the attack, thereby protecting his child and himself from serious injury? JMO

How does an infant fall to the floor when the adult holding him is knocked unconscious, and sustain zero injuries?
 
  • #192
How does an infant fall to the floor when the adult holding him is knocked unconscious, and sustain zero injuries?

They dont, this is all a lie created after a meeting with his lawyer
 
  • #193
How does an infant fall to the floor when the adult holding him is knocked unconscious, and sustain zero injuries?

Even if the infant/child was uninjured, if the shooter was fearing for his life, why would he take out a gun and shoot someone with his child in his arms? If the other person had a gun or weapon, his child could be killed. Not making sense to me. I would be rolling over on top of my child to protect them.

Hopefully, there was blood drawn from the victim and shooter to test for alcohol or drugs.
 
  • #194
Then he can point the gun and say get back. Not shoot 6-7 times taking out a mentally handicapped man and his parents with 7 shots.

He had options and shooting 7 times was not one.

That I don't agree with. When you're down, it's close to over. If you are knocked or thrown to the ground and someone is hitting you, you're not going to be able to calmly point your weapon and tell the attacker to stop. If I was knocked down, and could access my neck knife> I would be trying my hardest to kill my attacker. Because if you're on the ground, you can't defend yourself well and can be close to being killed.

But for that matter, you're not going to be able to easily grab your gun either, and shoot, if you were just knocked out and wake up "fighting for your life".

The whole thing seems off.

But people are going to see what they want to see. We have seen actual videos of people being shot in the back as they run away, of a kid just sitting there, being shot to death as the cops roll up, as the car is still moving, we've seen videos of cops shooting to death someone who is unarmed and on their stomachs, face down, not moving, obeying commands. And still the cops have gotten off in all those situations.

Someone here mentioned a video showing a bunch of cops screaming at a shoplifter with guns drawn and people agreed with the cop's actions.

This shows that people will take a stance and view evidence through that lens, no matter what it shows.
 
  • #195
Even if the infant/child was uninjured, if the shooter was fearing for his life, why would he take out a gun and shoot someone with his child in his arms? If the other person had a gun or weapon, his child could be killed. Not making sense to me. I would be rolling over on top of my child to protect them.

Hopefully, there was blood drawn from the victim and shooter to test for alcohol or drugs.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Oh, they will drag out an arrest a nurse who is doing her job and refraining from drawing blood from an unconscious accident victim because the person who caused the crash was a cop. But test a fellow cop? I doubt it.
 
  • #196
That I don't agree with. When you're down, it's close to over. If you are knocked or thrown to the ground and someone is hitting you, you're not going to be able to calmly point your weapon and tell the attacker to stop. If I was knocked down, and could access my neck knife> I would be trying my hardest to kill my attacker. Because if you're on the ground, you can't defend yourself well and can be close to being killed.

But for that matter, you're not going to be able to easily grab your gun either, and shoot, if you were just knocked out and wake up "fighting for your life".

The whole thing seems off.

But people are going to see what they want to see. We have seen actual videos of people being shot in the back as they run away, of a kid just sitting there, being shot to death as the cops roll up, as the car is still moving, we've seen videos of cops shooting to death someone who is unarmed and on their stomachs, face down, not moving, obeying commands. And still the cops have gotten off in all those situations.

Someone here mentioned a video showing a bunch of cops screaming at a shoplifter with guns drawn and people agreed with the cop's actions.

This shows that people will take a stance and view evidence through that lens, no matter what it shows.

the statement you are quoting came before they said the cop was on the ground. My comment only referred to what I assumed was a standing argument that took a turn. In that situation pointing a gun to get back is an option
 
  • #197
the statement you are quoting came before they said the cop was on the ground. My comment only referred to what I assumed was a standing argument that took a turn. In that situation pointing a gun to get back is an option

Ah, got it.
 
  • #198
Thread dialogue:
If he is knocked to the ground that he can reasonably argue he couldn't retreat.

Then he can point the gun and say get back. Not shoot 6-7 times taking out a mentally handicapped man and his parents with 7 shots.

He had options and shooting 7 times was not one.

That I don't agree with. When you're down, it's close to over. If you are knocked or thrown to the ground and someone is hitting you, you're not going to be able to calmly point your weapon and tell the attacker to stop. If I was knocked down, and could access my neck knife> I would be trying my hardest to kill my attacker. Because if you're on the ground, you can't defend yourself well and can be close to being killed.

the statement you are quoting came before they said the cop was on the ground. My comment only referred to what I assumed was a standing argument that took a turn. In that situation pointing a gun to get back is an option
^^
Wagtales10 - Your comment referred to "If he is knocked to the ground. . ."
I'm comparing this to Florida JULY 2018 incident where Drejka was forcefully shoved to the ground by McGlockton; Drejka then pulled gun, and shot and killed McGlockton.
FL - Markeis McGlockton, Killed following parking dispute, Clearwater, 19 July 2018
 
  • #199
I thought the child and his father were checked out at the hospital? We don't know what the diagnosis was.
From what has been reported, child wasn't injured and cop only had minor injuries and was released.
 
  • #200
Costco shooting: LAPD officer was knocked out by attacker before opening fire, attorney says

If this account is accurate it means that the officer fired his weapon after regaining consciousness from an unproved attack.
Yes, somebody supposedly knocked him out from behind, and then what? He came to and started shooting? If somebody knocked him out from behind, he likely wouldn't have even known who it was. So he was just randomly shooting at people behind him? Is that the story?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
134
Guests online
4,895
Total visitors
5,029

Forum statistics

Threads
633,265
Messages
18,638,776
Members
243,460
Latest member
joanjettofarc
Back
Top