CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[jjenny]

I am not sure what cop's complete story is, because all I read so far is that the victim pushed/slapped (according to victim's family attorney) him in the back, he fell unconscious (according to his lawyer) and then there is a blank space before he starts shooting. Was he shooting from the ground, did he get up? It hasn't been reported, as far as I know, that the victim did anything else to the cop, so I haven't seen any stories where victim went after the cop after cop fell.

 

[Eclipse]

Yes. I would too. If I was holding my child and someone knocked me to the floor unconscious, wen I awakened, after needing some time to come to my senses (I have been knocked out before, by my evil forgets when I was a kid), I would believe myself in danger.

It is hard for me to believe that:

1. His baby suffered no injuries if he was knocked unconscious from a blow from behind.
2. That a person would have the wherewithal to immediately wake up from being unconscious and instantly remember what happened and be able to quickly react and "protect" themselves and their child by grabbing, cocking, aiming and shooting their gun.

It just seems bizarre.

People claim that someone getting beaten on the ground can easily comply with cop commands to "submit" to the beaingn and lie still instead of instinctually trying to protect themselves. So when the person who is flailing about in pain and anguish and can't keep their hands from trying to cover their head and body from repeated blows, they deserved to get shot and killed.

So it makes sense that those same people believe that a cop can calmly draw, and aim his firearm while on the ground being beaten to death. Because remember, he was fighting for his life.

I just feel like the videos would be quickly released if they clearly showed self defense and not someone overreacting and unlawfully using their weapon.

That being said, while it stinks to me, it's possible that he was knocked to the ground while holding his baby. It's possible his baby miraculously avoided injury. It's possible he was knocked unconscious for a second. It's possible he awoke and was able to immediately orient himself, recall what had happened, locate his infant, realize his life and his child's life was in danger, all while just coming out of a black out and fighting for his life. It's possible that under those circumstances, dazed and fighting for his life he was able to grab, and aim his weapon. It's possible all that happened and he came out of all of it with only minor injuries.

It seems farfetched but it is possible.

What gives me pause is the comment that the young man was off his meds, meds that keep him calm, the fact that he was large and the statement that he did indeed slap the cop on his back.

Was he strong enough to knock him down and out?

Did he lose it at the Costco and attack someone viciously?

Let's see.

Well, from what you are saying- it would be hard to detangle at this point. Is the killer/shooter telling the truth? Were there any words spoken first? Actually, the baby being with him/her is the only reason I could think of to shoot- and then, as others say- how did others get shot- maybe in crossfire or the carelessness of the shooter? I will do a lot of reading and try to have a better grasp on what's available.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Does outcry matter in a situation like this? I know the bystander effect is a real thing. I have learned that women should scream "Fire" instead of "Rape". But this is a man, presumably with a louder and more commanding voice, who could also shout that he is an officer who is being attacked (along with his baby). Especially in a crowded Costco, I imagine someone would hear him and try to intervene, even if it's just to say they called store security or 911 in an effort to deter and distract the attacker. I definitely would. Is shouting for help considered a reasonable measure before using deadly force for self-defense? ETA - I'm not saying he didn't shout. I don't know.

 

[Eclipse]

We have no mention of the victim with a weapon. We have seen in MSM that there was a push/slap knocking the shooter to the ground. We read that the shooter identified himself as an officer. NOW, we need to know why he believed he could shoot. Was it 1 sec after the id'ing himself or 10 sec? Where was the victim shot? Even if the victim continued toward him, if there was no weapon, was it justifiable to shoot? I don't think so....

As a broken record- IF the person continued toward him it would have been justifiable to shoot him because the child was with only that parent, and if overpowered/incapacitated, what would happen to the child (in the mind of the parent).

 

[SuziQ]

In that case the video must show him being knocked to the ground, not moving, while the attacked continued to beat him, then he came to, as he was being beaten, and was somehow able to, after being unconscious and still being beaten, have the wherewithal and physical ability (because when you;re being beaten, your body is being moved around quite a bit), to reach for, grab, , aim and fire his weapon.

Also, where did his child go when he was knocked unconscious? How on earth was a 1 1/2 year old left totally uninjured and in zero need of medical attention if his father was holding him when knocked out and laid out on the floor?

It does sound far-fetched to me.

His wife was wth him. Supposedly.

 

[jjenny]

As a broken record- IF the person continued toward him it would have been justifiable to shoot him because the child was with only that parent, and if overpowered/incapacitated, what would happen to the child (in the mind of the parent).

Child wasn't with only that parent. Cop was there is his child and his wife.

 

[SuziQ]

I think someone would have much more than minor injuries if they were "fighting for their life" as he claims.

Also, note his attorney never stated the baby was in danger or he was trying to protect the baby. So no need to add that feature.

I don't think you have to have injuries to have justifiable fear.

 

[jjenny]

I don't think you have to have injuries to have justifiable fear.

There is no stand your ground laws in California. Therefore he can't use excessive force in self defense. This ain't Florida.

 

[jjenny]

Does outcry matter in a situation like this? I know the bystander effect is a real thing. I have learned that women should scream "Fire" instead of "Rape". But this is a man, presumably with a louder and more commanding voice, who could also shout that he is an officer who is being attacked (along with his baby). Especially in a crowded Costco, I imagine someone would hear him and try to intervene, even if it's just to say they called store security or 911 in an effort to deter and distract the attacker. I definitely would. Is shouting for help considered a reasonable measure before using deadly force for self-defense? ETA - I'm not saying he didn't shout. I don't know.

Not sure what anyone would have to defend him from? Other than victim pushing or slapping him in the back, it hasn't been reported that victim did anything else to him, as far as I know.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

There is no stand your ground laws in California. Therefore he has a duty to retreat if possible, and he can't use excessive force in self defense. This ain't Florida.

If you are laying on the ground it's kind of hard to retreat. JMO

 

[jjenny]

If you are laying on the ground it's kind of hard to retreat. JMO

If. We don't know if he was shooting from the ground, or did he get up before shooting?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't think you have to have injuries to have justifiable fear.

I believe you are correct. JMO

 

[SuziQ]

There is no stand your ground laws in California. Therefore he has a duty to retreat if possible, and he can't use excessive force in self defense. This ain't Florida.

When possible. How do we know retreating was an option?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If. We don't know if he was shooting from the ground, or did he get up before shooting?

We don't know much yet.

 

[Wagtales10]

So this man was slapped so hard in the back that he flew to the ground so hard he was knocked out.

BUT - his child wasnt hurt at all
AND no one intervened
AND - when he awoken, he shot 6-7 shots off and hit 3 people, including elderly parents.

So believable - eye roll

 

[gitana1]

Well, from what you are saying- it would be hard to detangle at this point. Is the killer/shooter telling the truth? Were there any words spoken first? Actually, the baby being with him/her is the only reason I could think of to shoot- and then, as others say- how did others get shot- maybe in crossfire or the carelessness of the shooter? I will do a lot of reading and try to have a better grasp on what's available.

I don't think we have enough info yet. I think people are forming opinions quickly based on biases they have.

I admit I have biases. I'm very pro LE.

But I'm also anti police unjustifiably killing of unarmed people, who are predominately people of color or people with mental health issues, and receiving no consequences due to public bias against their victims. And I believe that has happened and does happen repeatedly in our country due to prejudices that certain people are inherently violent or more dangerous.

I'm also very much against cover ups by LE.

The shooter was not on duty. So he should be treated like anyone else - arrested for homicide of some sort, tested, processed and named to the public. Which can be important.

There's no reason to hold back the video, IMO, unless it shows something they feel could be damaging to the shooter. And if the shooter wasn't a cop, it would be released, I believe.

That concerns me.

You know I watch a lot of videos f first amendment auditors and sovereign citizens. I really can't stand them. They typically purposefully and aggressively bait the cops, cause the cops to fear for their lives and create scary and unnecessary situations that led to arrests and could easily lead to deaths. (Occasionally they have).

I feel for the cops in those situations. They give so many chances. They show a lot of patience. Much more than the baiters deserve. And when the baiters get shot or hurt I actually don't feel sorry for them. Not really.

Case in point, one came to a Jewish temple here in So Cal recently. A tall, masculine-looking woman, (trans) who stood outside a temple silently filming.

When they do this, they seem to purposefully act ominously at times.

She was shot by the paid security guard. He was not charged because in light of the mass shootings we've had his reaction was seen as reasonable to the perceived threat.

I agree he should not be charged.

But when I see cops using their bodies to block someone from filming an arrest or detention, or grabbing their cameras, ordering them to get inside and notfilm, creating fake charges to go after them for filming or protesting or whatever, that I have a problem with.

So yes I am pro cop. But I'm also anti-abuse of power.

My biases make me think that in this case something is wrong because of the different treatment of this off duty cop and the failure to release the recording.

I also find the cop's story illogical. Possible but not probable.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Not sure what anyone would have to defend him from? Other than victim pushing or slapping him in the back, it hasn't been reported that victim did anything else to him, as far as I know.

I know, but I'm trying to explore the premise of fearing for his life and needing to fire 6-7 shots. I have doubts about the shooter's story (and mental stability). But I don't know enough about the incident. ETA - I was also wondering if shouting for help (in a crowded store) is part of the duty to retreat before firing.

 

[SuziQ]

https://www.wklaw.com/california-self-defense-laws/

California Self Defense Laws Outside of Your Home (CALCRIM #505 and #506)
Of course, not all self-defense situations occur inside your home. Even though there is not a specific statute for standing your ground, California law does recognize your right to defend yourself with deadly force. California Jury Instructions (CALCRIM #505 and #506) describe this as “justifiable homicide.”

A jury is instructed to find you innocent of homicide, assault or other charges if you were acting reasonably under the circumstance. A reasonable circumstance under California Jury Instructions #505 and #506 means:

• You reasonably believed you were in danger of being injured or killed;
• You reasonably believed that you needed to use force to prevent this from happening; and
• You used no more force than was necessary to stop the threat.4

If you are facing a reasonable threat of being injured or killed, you do not have to run away under California law. As long as you did not make the first strike, a skilled criminal defense attorney can argue that you were acting in self-defense.

 

[gitana1]

I think you are misreading a lot of the posts. All the links have been posted already and are there for you to re read if you want to accurately be up to date on this

But we have to provide links when making statements and asked for them, as to specific, easily verifiable facts.

 

[jjenny]

Even if he feared for his life, how many extra people is one allowed to shoot in addition to attacker and not be charged? Mother of the victim is reportedly in really bad shape and might not survive. Even in states with stand your ground laws, I don't believe laws allow you to just shoot extra people in addition to attacker.