Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #3

[SeattleStew]

https://twitter.com/abc7newsbayarea/status/1350620143446011905

This just caught my eye. I do not know if it is related.

To summarize:
Human remains and clothes were discovered in a field on the border of Vacaville and Fairfield, police said Saturday morning. http://abc7ne.ws/38N58Cd

 

[SeattleStew]

https://twitter.com/abc7newsbayarea/status/1350620143446011905

This just caught my eye. I do not know if it is related.

I just realized how far from California City this is. Probably not related.

 

[fcavanaugh]

I was described as rambunctious by my parents, I never considered it to be a bad word. I was very active, climbing trees, playing in the woods and getting scratched up or hit in the head with a stick, maybe not typical girly things to do, skinned knees and stitches. All of my cousins were older and male - I went where they went.
JMO

I agree @MimosaMornings, rambunctious is not a bad word. It’s a descriptive word which describes kids expending energy, whether horsing around play wrestling with each other, getting into everything, as well as doing things as you describe in your post. In other words, normal behavior for kids with a lot of energy to burn off. It’s a given that kids generally have a lot of energy and get rambunctious from time to time. The issue for me is, why the Dad, TW, felt the need to mention the boys are going to be rambunctious in first media interview/appearance after the boys went “missing”, when the single most important thing is to get the word out and plea for your children’s safety?

He did not plea for his children’s safety, mention any concern for what they are going through, nor utter their names, not once. Instead, he made a point to say they’re going to be rambunctious. umm, what? It’s a statement/description of the boys that’s completely irrelevant to the direness of the situation, and IMO comes off as contemptuous/victim blaming.

How about my kids are scared, afraid, please don’t hurt them, etc, etc, etc...

All of the above IMHOO.

ETA: added word for clarity.

 

[k-mac]

I am not sure I agree. My Irish grandma used that term a lot. She had 10 kids, and then opened up a Home Day Care, that I worked in when I was in high school. She had a back covered patio that she named 'The Rambunctious Room'--it was full of pillows and stuffed animals, and she let the 'most rambunctious' kids run around and roughhouse for awhile, to calm themselves down.

She used the term with a twinkle in her eyes, never used it as 'badly behaved' or 'unruly.' She truly meant exuberant and noisy and irrepressible. She let the wild ones run around and wrestle each other before they had to calm down and play with everyone else politely.

That term means different things to different people, I guess. I am not saying this because I think they are 100% honest and innocent. Just saying that the word rambunctious can be a descriptor of energetic enthusiastic behaviour, not necessarily used as a negative bash type of word.

yeah great points katy
Because it is a term most of us here are unfamiliar with it has developed an interest all of its own!
Your grandma sounds like a gorgeous gem x

 

[k-mac]

I know in Washington state, once our adoption through the state was finalized, we no longer had state employees coming to our house. Adoption was done and so were they.

great insight Emb to the system.
Wonder how many states are the same.

 

[Dre]

I agree, rambunctious is not a bad word. It’s a descriptive word which describes kids expending energy whether horsing around play wrestling with each other, getting into everything, as well as doing things as you describe in your post, in other words, normal behavior for kids with a lot of energy. It’s a given that kids have a lot of energy and get rambunctious from time to time. The issue for me is, why the Dad, TW, feel the need to mention the boys are going to be rambunctious in first media appearance after the boys went “missing” when the most important thing is to get the word out and plea for your children’s safety?

He did not plea for his children’s safety, mention any concern for what they are going through, nor utter their names, not once. Instead, he made a point to say they’re going to be rambunctious. umm, what? It’s a statement that’s irrelevant to the direness of the situation.

How about my kids are scared, afraid, please don’t hurt them etc, etc, etc...

IMHO

Yes! 100%!

The description itself (rambunctious) is fine and normal, even delightful sometimes!

but the context, phrasing and inflection really mattered. The way he said it, and the lack of any other description or love felt was a glaring red flag that I absolutely cannot see past, moo.

 

[Spartygirl]

https://twitter.com/abc7newsbayarea/status/1350620143446011905

This just caught my eye. I do not know if it is related.

To summarize:
Human remains and clothes were discovered in a field on the border of Vacaville and Fairfield, police said Saturday morning. http://abc7ne.ws/38N58Cd

So about 5-5 1/2 hours NORTH of California City.
Thanks for sharing.. I will be keeping my eye updates

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes! 100%!

The description itself (rambunctious) is fine and normal, even delightful sometimes!

but the context, phrasing and inflection really mattered. The way he said it, and the lack of any other description or love felt was a glaring red flag that I absolutely cannot see past, moo.

Yes, the word was delivered with contempt, it seemed to me.
Some things are impossible to conceal.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MichelleBlue]

Ok you all really have me thinking about this comment, "They are going to be ... rambunctious." Since we don't have much else to talk about anyway. The one situation I think maaaayyybbeee understandable for the father to say this is if he is really trying to communicate, "Listen, my boys have significant behavior needs. They are rambunctious and may act in a very unpredictable way when they are away from us. They may act up and not comply with what you want them to do. If you have my boys, please don't hurt them because of this. Drop them off at the police station or a hospital or bring them back to us." See the difference.

I feel so sad for these little boys. They don't know how worried so many strangers are for them or how concerned their extended family is
So sad.

 

[MsMarple]

I agree @MimosaMornings, rambunctious is not a bad word. It’s a descriptive word which describes kids expending energy, whether horsing around play wrestling with each other, getting into everything, as well as doing things as you describe in your post. In other words, normal behavior for kids with a lot of energy to burn off. It’s a given that kids generally have a lot of energy and get rambunctious from time to time. The issue for me is, why the Dad, TW, felt the need to mention the boys are going to be rambunctious in first media interview/appearance after the boys went “missing”, when the single most important thing is to get the word out and plea for your children’s safety?

He did not plea for his children’s safety, mention any concern for what they are going through, nor utter their names, not once. Instead, he made a point to say they’re going to be rambunctious. umm, what? It’s a statement/description of the boys that’s completely irrelevant to the direness of the situation, and IMO comes off as contemptuous/victim blaming.

How about my kids are scared, afraid, please don’t hurt them, etc, etc, etc...

All of the above IMHOO.

ETA: added word for clarity.

In general I agree with your concern that the boys' parents didn't express any worry over their safety and well being as that's usually a big red flag. Unfortunately, in this case the circumstances were a little messed up. The boys went missing on December 21 and the parents didn't speak to msm/the public until the 23rd and IIRC it was after the bio mother accused them of harming the boys. Social media was also already accusing them of foul play.

By the time they spoke out they were in defensive mode and so IMO it's difficult to "read" their statement as we might in other cases. Of course that begs the question of why they didn't speak out immediately, asking the public to look for the boys if they believed they had wandered off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not letting them off the hook I'm just saying that the 2 day delay could have skewed not only what they wanted to say to the public but also what their "internal" dialog was.

IMO we tend to get better information when the caregivers of missing kids speak out in their own terms rather than respond to public comments and accusations. Those who follow little Deorr's case will probably understand this, for example.

But yes, it still leaves the question of why weren't the parents out begging every msm outlet to get the word out instead of hunkering down inside their house. All MOO.

Adoptive parents of missing 3 and 4 year-old California City kids speak out for the first time

 

[dulcinea]

When I was in middle school we had a case in my hometown where a mother who did not have custody of her twin five-year old daughters was babysitting them. (She was allowed visitation/contact. I do not know why she didn't have custody.) The girls took prescribed medication for a condition I don't know. The biological mother called our local ER to question the proper dosage despite her supposedly having administered the medication previously. The dosage she actually administered was WAY more than prescribed and at least one of the girls died. I am pretty sure the second one survived, but I am fuzzy on all of the details because it was years ago. The mother was charged and convicted of murder or homicide or something. Whether it was intentional or not was a huge controversy.

All that to say....

Two boys went missing at the same time. Is it possible they were administered something or got into medication they shouldn't have and didn't make it? Now we're looking for two boys. Under normal circumstances if it was accidental you would call 911. However, my three year old niece "got into something" and needed a trip to the ER and the details around the entire situation unfolded in a "less than normal" way and we're still unclear about it all. There is plenty of speculation but we're not "allowed" to inquire about it. I shudder to think about where we'd be if she hadn't made it.

I have no real theories about what happened; I'm just trying to think of how two children might have disappeared.

 

[Knox]

Video Clip at Link-

TEHACHAPI, Calif. (KBAK/KBFX) — A private investigator says a woman in Tehachapi tells him she saw the two missing boys at the Albertson's in Tehachapi on Christmas Eve, with a white man and woman. The witness recognized the boys' faces after seeing the missing children add. She called California city police. But that's not the only possible lead coming from Tehachapi.

Bill Garcia , Private Investigator and Owner of Bill Garcia Investigative Services, says a Tehachapi resident called him and told him he saw was heading west bound on highway 58 on December 23rd and saw two small black boys with an adult. He thought it was odd for children to be on the Pacific Crest Trail in December and not dressed warm.

"He was driving westbound on 58 coming home from work and he saw an adult Afro American male, somewhat thin, somewhat tall and with two small children, hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail near the exit, Garcia said.

The witness pulled over and noted there was a parked gold or tan colored Chevy SUV. He says the boys and the man were about a third of a mile saw from the parked area off the Cameron Road exit of highway 58 in the outskirts of Tehachapi.

The California City Police Chief says he has been notified about a potential lead in Tehachapi from a witness.
Private investigator and Kern County Sheriff's Deputies look in Tehachapi for missing boys

 

[Knox]

"I took that information and I passed it along and we are doing a follow up on it now," Jon Walker, Police Chief for the California City Police Department, said.

The chief would not confirm if that one lead was the woman who says she saw the boys at the Albertson's in Tehachapi or the man driving on highway 58.

Garcia says Saturday the witness found what appeared to be two small fresh bones, but that wasn't all.

"Just beyond those spots, on the BLM side I found one single black rubber shoe children's size twelve, rubber slipper more than a shoe, which doesn't look like it has been out here very long," Garcia said.

Garcia's investigative team called the Kern County Sheriff's Office. Three deputies came to the scene, sent pictures to the Kern County Coroner who said due to fur on the bones and around the bones, they belong to an animal, not a human.
Private investigator and Kern County Sheriff's Deputies look in Tehachapi for missing boys

 

[Eloise]

When I was in middle school we had a case in my hometown where a mother who did not have custody of her twin five-year old daughters was babysitting them. (She was allowed visitation/contact. I do not know why she didn't have custody.) The girls took prescribed medication for a condition I don't know. The biological mother called our local ER to question the proper dosage despite her supposedly having administered the medication previously. The dosage she actually administered was WAY more than prescribed and at least one of the girls died. I am pretty sure the second one survived, but I am fuzzy on all of the details because it was years ago. The mother was charged and convicted of murder or homicide or something. Whether it was intentional or not was a huge controversy.

All that to say....

Two boys went missing at the same time. Is it possible they were administered something or got into medication they shouldn't have and didn't make it? Now we're looking for two boys. Under normal circumstances if it was accidental you would call 911. However, my three year old niece "got into something" and needed a trip to the ER and the details around the entire situation unfolded in a "less than normal" way and we're still unclear about it all. There is plenty of speculation but we're not "allowed" to inquire about it. I shudder to think about where we'd be if she hadn't made it.

I have no real theories about what happened; I'm just trying to think of how two children might have disappeared.

I'd have the same answer for that as for them dying by dog attack. You'd get in SO much less trouble by immediately calling 911 than hiding the bodies and then waiting potentially months to say something, even if your gross negligence led to it happening

 

[mickey2942]

I'd have the same answer for that as for them dying by dog attack. You'd get in SO much less trouble by immediately calling 911 than hiding the bodies and then waiting potentially months to say something, even if your gross negligence led to it happening

Not to side track anything, but that is exactly what I thought about Caylee Anthony, if she drowned in the pool, call 911. And the situation with JBR was so bizarre...

Back to the kids...I would be interested if the police saw the chalk, and if there were any drawings on the cement. And how long did the father say he left the kids alone in the yard?

 

[susiQ]

Video Clip at Link-

TEHACHAPI, Calif. (KBAK/KBFX) — A private investigator says a woman in Tehachapi tells him she saw the two missing boys at the Albertson's in Tehachapi on Christmas Eve, with a white man and woman. The witness recognized the boys' faces after seeing the missing children add. She called California city police. But that's not the only possible lead coming from Tehachapi.

Bill Garcia , Private Investigator and Owner of Bill Garcia Investigative Services, says a Tehachapi resident called him and told him he saw was heading west bound on highway 58 on December 23rd and saw two small black boys with an adult. He thought it was odd for children to be on the Pacific Crest Trail in December and not dressed warm.

"He was driving westbound on 58 coming home from work and he saw an adult Afro American male, somewhat thin, somewhat tall and with two small children, hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail near the exit, Garcia said.

The witness pulled over and noted there was a parked gold or tan colored Chevy SUV. He says the boys and the man were about a third of a mile saw from the parked area off the Cameron Road exit of highway 58 in the outskirts of Tehachapi.

The California City Police Chief says he has been notified about a potential lead in Tehachapi from a witness.
Private investigator and Kern County Sheriff's Deputies look in Tehachapi for missing boys

Here we go again

In this article it says a woman saw a man and a woman with the two boys that she believed were the missing boys. I am suspect of that sighting. Why? On the 23rd/24th of December the photos released were old photos. The boys looks have changed and this is noticeable, at least to me, when looking at the more recent photos. Then consider, they might not be all that recent either.

Then there’s this. In this video interview of Garcia, he states that the woman saw the boys with two men, not two women. I’m not putting a lot of hope into these alleged sightings. LE were digging at the home and searching desolate properties. That doesn’t instil much hope in me. JMHO.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Assuming these other sightings, the Albertson's one and the PCT one, are mistaken identities, I hope that whoever those people actually were, step forward and ID themselves quickly so that LE resources don't have to chase down false leads.

MOO

 

[Emb72]

great insight Emb to the system.
Wonder how many states are the same.

As I've learned on Websleuths, every state is different.

 

[katydid23]

As I've learned on Websleuths, every state is different.

But California is the same as described by OP--- After the adoptions are finalised, there are no mandated meetings with Social Services anymore.

That only happens if a mandated reporter makes a claim or accusation that would warrant a review. Like if a teacher or doctor reported an incident of concern.

 

[Frodosdojo]

Big questions:
1) When and where were the kids last seen by anyone other than the parents?
2) When and where were the kids last photographed or caught on surveillance tape? Definitively! (Were they ever photographed in new home or since move to Cal City? Or at old house in Bakersfield? Or have they been missing a LONG time!! As the old photos suggest)
3) when did grandparents/ extended family last see O & O in person or FaceTime?

I think these are super important questions. If, as another poster suggested, the last time any person outside of the adoptive parents saw them was Thanksgiving, then that's quite a ways to go back and try to trace steps.

Exactly! Pure speculation follows... (based on old photos, no sightings, old medical records)

Hypothetically if the kids have been missing a long time or were re-homed/sold a while ago, what would have forced the parents to call 911 now?
We have speculated about the holiday and family expecting to see them. But wouldn’t it have been easier to say the birth mom got them back or they were placed elsewhere or something?

So just hypothetically if not family, what could have spurred this call?

- Government agency?? was the government checking on them? children services - a new check in or recertification of adoption benefits issue (it doesn’t seem like the govt is aware of any medical care... which seems like a red flag for adoption benefits Does CA check on these cases with AAP monitoring?), a benefits fraud investigation, tax audit? Did they need to submit some kind of medical records in order to continue getting benefits or back up their tax filing? Did they want to foster more kids but needed to account for two being missing/ home study?

-Financial reason: Did they just wait to report missing until they could secure a mortgage and buy a comfortable home based on inflated income from the adoption benefits? Or did they run into an issue getting a mortgage for the new house that they couldn’t get the loan they needed because of the number of kids or something? And thought reporting that they only had 4 kids could fix it?

I thought the birthmom said she had planned to give the kids Christmas presents. Maybe that's what triggered the report ?

Also, I believe the adoptive parents may have received a USDA RD loan. These loans are primarily for low income people. They would receive a monthly subsidy which would allow them to afford a home they would normally not qualify for. They would also be required to choose a home in a rural area (the USDA has maps online for eligible areas). There is no down payment and closing costs can be rolled into the loan.

Completely irrelevant. Why say it? As a warning to the supposed kidnappers? You’ll be sorry you grabbed my two boys! They’re going to be rambunctious. A la Ransom of Red Chief?

I remember hearing the AF mention the boys liked to wrestle each other as well. Between rambunctious and wrestling, it sounded to me like an explanation for any bumps or bruises. MOO.