CA - Rebecca Zahau Nalepa - suicide or murder? #10

[Stella5]

Would a boat operator know something about rope lengths for anchoring at varying water depths?

When anchoring your boat you generally use 5x the length of your boat under normal circumstances, more in bad weather. Our rope is marked for lengths, as is generally the case on a tow boat.

 

[cynic]

So you don't measure the length from the bed, to where you need to suspend. You don't make any inaccurate cuts in the rope.
You don't go out on the balcony, look around, see whether there might be something that could impede your falling, accomplishing your mission.
You only put a single loop around a bed and expect it to bear the weight of 100 lbs pulling against it.
You leave a message that is in third person. But no explanation or apology.
You don't research this method of death.

Yet you are dead.

Hey Sunnie, nice to see you here.
I thought I'd stray away from the JonBenet forum and see what trouble I could get into elsewhere.

One of the many things that struck me about the case is that there should have been more serious spinal injuries if we accept the police theory that she jumped/fell from the balcony.
A fall involving that distance recreates an execution, or judicial style of hanging involving intentional spinal fracture, does it not?
Although there are a few “formulas” out there for the distance needed to execute a prisoner by hanging, an 8 foot drop is suggested for someone of RN’s weight.
The autopsy report indicates she fell 9 feet, 2 inches.

The "Long drop" or measured drop method.
In 1872, William Marwood introduced the concept of an accurately calculated drop for the execution of Frederick Horry at Lincoln prison, as a scientifically worked out way of giving the prisoner a humane death. This concept had been developed by doctors in Ireland and was in use there by the mid 1850’s. Longer drops were in use elsewhere by this time, e.g. in America, but the short drop was still used by many countries at this time e.g. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland & Russia.
The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose. If the eyelet is positioned under the left angle of the jaw it rotates the head backwards, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck and ruptures the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. The later use of the brass eyelet in the noose tended to break the neck with more certainty. It is only in the last six inches or so of the drop that the physical damage to the neck and vertebrae occur as the rope constricts the neck and the force is applied to the vertebrae. The duration of this part of the process is between 0.02 and 0.03 of a second depending upon the length of drop given. Generally the diameter of the noose is found to have reduced some five to seven inches after the drop.

Weight of prisoner: 105 lbs. & under
Drop in feet & inches: 8’ 0”
Ft/lbs energy developed: 840

…

It takes between a half and three quarters of a second for a person to reach the end of the drop after the trap opens. The force produced by the prisoner's body weight multiplied by the length of fall and the force of gravity, coupled with the position of the noose is designed to violently jerk the person’s head backwards and sideways. In medical terms this is known as hyperflexion of the neck, which causes fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, ideally between the C2 & C3 vertebrae, crushing or severing the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness. The cause of death is however comatose asphyxia as the rope constricts the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The Phrenic nerve which controls the diaphragm emerges between the C3 and C4 vertebrae and thus if the fracture occurs above C4 the person's breathing ceases immediately.

Here is an excerpt from an autopsy report involving judicial hanging:

Fracture - dislocation of the spine at C2 with a 2 inch gap and transverse separation of the spinal cord at the same level.
Fracture of both wings of the Hyoid and R. wing of the Thyroid cartilage, larynx also fractured.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html

For RN we see the following:
“There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural, or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal cord. There is no spinal cord softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is intact.”

 

[scorekeeper]

I don't find it strange at all. The RN family don't trust LE so why should JS be any different?

JMO

In the days after Jonah Shacknai's son, Max, and girlfriend, Rebecca Zahau died, he hired a private investigations firm, RadarOnline.com is exclusively reporting.

he hired them them immediately; the guy from the agency picked up the dog from the boarders........RN's family didn't question the findings until the week before Labor Day.....for some reason JS knew right off the bat to cover all the bases.....

HINKY, HINKY....

 

[Stella5]

I thought I read that LE said she leaned forward until she went over? Which would mean she went head first, wouldn't it? Or is that what you are saying

Yes, that's what I'm saying. But she was only 5'3", exactly my height, and I would guess you'd have to leverage yourself with a push to propel yourself over. IMO the toe prints indicate that. I don't see a hit man, or grief stricken parent thinking of how the toe prints should slide to make this look like suicide. MOO

 

[jjenny]

Other than her feet being bound based on the footprints we really don't know if her hands were bound yet, or if she was gagged yet, or if she looked over the balcony and adjusted the noose. We don't know. She knew that house and that balcony and how high up it is. She knew the trees were there and knew nothing was directly under it. She lived there on & off for two years. I can tell you right now my deck off the kitchen & living room is exactly 16 feet high. I know this because contractors measured it years ago to replace it. Jonah was doing renovations and that deck railing looks in desperate need of replacing/fixing... it is quite possible she knew how high it was.

I would imagine her hands were not bound yet. She used her hands on the rail to hop closer leaving the additional set of footprints next to the railing. She then gagged herself to not make noise, or bite her tongue off... and then she flipped herself over the railing at her hip. The balcony is not that wide (2 feet maybe, I counted the bricks), this is perfectly feasible. The toe impressions in the dirt tell me she pushed off the balcony floor.

There is a set of footprints then not even a fool foot print close to the railing. That suggest she hopped onto the balcony then hopped one more time and fell off. When would she be binding her hands while on the balcony? If she stopped on the balcony to bind her hands I would expect more footprints.

 

[tvscum]

Remember once RN was found hanging naked, soneone leaked to press that she slept in the nude. Well, after reading autopsy report siting woman clothing, makeup wipes and glass of clear fluid in one suite and suitcase in the other....it is suggestive of RN sleeping in guesthouse. That report is not clear if the 2 suites are connected or separate rooms. So, was she sleeping in nude by AS? I could see RN not wanting to sleep in mansion after terrible accident, and main staircase possibly still closed off by LE. Not to mention wanting company, since JS was at hospital, JS kids and her sister gone, even dog gone...... She was all alone, except for JS baby brother.

Here are the floor plans for the main house, guest house, and caretaker's house.

http://www.coronado.ca.us/egov/docs/1304105930_697174.pdf

There are actually three bedrooms in the guest house, two downstairs and one upstairs. The downstairs bedrooms are separated by a living room.

These floor plans were voted on at the Coronado city council meeting on May 3, 2011. Note, JS wanted to make major changes to this historic mansion so these floor plans include drawings labeled "existing floor plan" for the guest house, and "proposed floor plan" for the guest house.

This is a huge 30 MB download and the guest house floor plans for both upstairs and downstairs begin on page 264 of 344. There are also some grainy photos of the balcony etc.

Sounds like the medical examiner investigator only checked out the "two bedrooms" on the bottom floor. It remains unclear which bedroom had the suitcase and which one had the woman's clothing.

 

[SunnieRN]

Hey Sunnie, nice to see you here.
I thought I'd stray away from the JonBenet forum and see what trouble I could get into elsewhere.

One of the many things that struck me about the case is that there should have been more serious spinal injuries if we accept the police theory that she jumped/fell from the balcony.
A fall involving that distance recreates an execution, or judicial style of hanging involving intentional spinal fracture, does it not?
Although there are a few “formulas” out there for the distance needed to execute a prisoner by hanging, an 8 foot drop is suggested for someone of RN’s weight.
The autopsy report indicates she fell 9 feet, 2 inches.

The "Long drop" or measured drop method.
In 1872, William Marwood introduced the concept of an accurately calculated drop for the execution of Frederick Horry at Lincoln prison, as a scientifically worked out way of giving the prisoner a humane death. This concept had been developed by doctors in Ireland and was in use there by the mid 1850’s. Longer drops were in use elsewhere by this time, e.g. in America, but the short drop was still used by many countries at this time e.g. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland & Russia.
The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose. If the eyelet is positioned under the left angle of the jaw it rotates the head backwards, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck and ruptures the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. The later use of the brass eyelet in the noose tended to break the neck with more certainty. It is only in the last six inches or so of the drop that the physical damage to the neck and vertebrae occur as the rope constricts the neck and the force is applied to the vertebrae. The duration of this part of the process is between 0.02 and 0.03 of a second depending upon the length of drop given. Generally the diameter of the noose is found to have reduced some five to seven inches after the drop.

Weight of prisoner: 105 lbs. & under
Drop in feet & inches: 8’ 0”
Ft/lbs energy developed: 840

…

It takes between a half and three quarters of a second for a person to reach the end of the drop after the trap opens. The force produced by the prisoner's body weight multiplied by the length of fall and the force of gravity, coupled with the position of the noose is designed to violently jerk the person’s head backwards and sideways. In medical terms this is known as hyperflexion of the neck, which causes fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, ideally between the C2 & C3 vertebrae, crushing or severing the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness. The cause of death is however comatose asphyxia as the rope constricts the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The Phrenic nerve which controls the diaphragm emerges between the C3 and C4 vertebrae and thus if the fracture occurs above C4 the person's breathing ceases immediately.

Here is an excerpt from an autopsy report involving judicial hanging:

Fracture - dislocation of the spine at C2 with a 2 inch gap and transverse separation of the spinal cord at the same level.
Fracture of both wings of the Hyoid and R. wing of the Thyroid cartilage, larynx also fractured.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html

For RN we see the following:
“There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural, or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal cord. There is no spinal cord softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is intact.”

Cynic my friend!!!! It's so VERY good to see you!! I sent some posters here to check out your DNA post on the JonBenet forum, as we were talking about touch DNA on the rope that Rebecca was hung with. I guess in all honesty I should say lack of touch DNA.

Even though AS, JS brother admits to cutting Rebecca down, they found none of his DNA on the rope.

Now, as for Rebeccas injuries,she had several injuries to her neck, but I was interested more die to the fact that they were mostly on the left side. If she truly went over the balcony the way that LE states (over head first, where the 11" area on the balcony rail is messed up", the injuries should be about even on both sides. Correct?:waitasec:

I need your expertise here, and WELCOME!!! It's great to see you!! (((((Hugs))))))

 

[justice be served]

The primary issue I have with this is would not all that length of rope disturb the dirt on the patio to a major degree? And standing there with bound legs and performing that many consecutive loops and what not seems incomprehensible IMO.

Other than her feet being bound based on the footprints we really don't know if her hands were bound yet, or if she was gagged yet, or if she looked over the balcony and adjusted the noose. We don't know. She knew that house and that balcony and how high up it is. She knew the trees were there and knew nothing was directly under it. She lived there on & off for two years. I can tell you right now my deck off the kitchen & living room is exactly 16 feet high. I know this because contractors measured it years ago to replace it. Jonah was doing renovations and that deck railing looks in desperate need of replacing/fixing... it is quite possible she knew how high it was.

I would imagine her hands were not bound yet. She used her hands on the rail to hop closer leaving the additional set of footprints next to the railing. She then gagged herself to not make noise, or bite her tongue off... and then she flipped herself over the railing at her hip. The balcony is not that wide (2 feet maybe, I counted the bricks), this is perfectly feasible. The toe impressions in the dirt tell me she pushed off the balcony floor.

 

[MyBelle]

In the days after Jonah Shacknai's son, Max, and girlfriend, Rebecca Zahau died, he hired a private investigations firm, RadarOnline.com is exclusively reporting.

he hired them them immediately; the guy from the agency picked up the dog from the boarders........RN's family didn't question the findings until the week before Labor Day.....for some reason JS knew right off the bat to cover all the bases.....

HINKY, HINKY....

He's been cleared by LE and all this innuendo directed at him isn't justified imo. The man is a victim.

His son was fatally injured and his girlfriend also died. Such tragedies so close together would set off any normal person's hinky meter.

 

[SunnieRN]

And Cynic, I have absolutely NO idea about hanging, but in reading the information you posted, I think you are telling us she may have died a different way. Correct? I tend to favor strangulation with 'hanging' to stage the crime.

Tell me more please!!

 

[CalElliot]

Re "...the 7/16” red tow rope with yellow handle: warning intended for maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube. Yellow plastic tube that “encircles” one strand of thicker rope..." in AR...

So a 2-rider tow rope for water-sports. That would probably be 60 inches long, with stretch of two to three percent of its length.

 

[tvscum]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. But she was only 5'3", exactly my height, and I would guess you'd have to leverage yourself with a push to propel yourself over. IMO the toe prints indicate that. I don't see a hit man, or grief stricken parent thinking of how the toe prints should slide to make this look like suicide. MOO

Forgive me if this has already been noted, but if RZ is 5’3” and she was estimated to be hanging 2’2” off the ground, that puts the top of her head at 7.5 feet. Why did AS need to stand on a table to cut the rope that theoretically would have been cut-able just above RZ’s neck?
Do we know how tall AS is?

 

[elementry]

Hey Sunnie, nice to see you here.
I thought I'd stray away from the JonBenet forum and see what trouble I could get into elsewhere.

One of the many things that struck me about the case is that there should have been more serious spinal injuries if we accept the police theory that she jumped/fell from the balcony.
A fall involving that distance recreates an execution, or judicial style of hanging involving intentional spinal fracture, does it not?
Although there are a few “formulas” out there for the distance needed to execute a prisoner by hanging, an 8 foot drop is suggested for someone of RN’s weight.
The autopsy report indicates she fell 9 feet, 2 inches.

The "Long drop" or measured drop method.
In 1872, William Marwood introduced the concept of an accurately calculated drop for the execution of Frederick Horry at Lincoln prison, as a scientifically worked out way of giving the prisoner a humane death. This concept had been developed by doctors in Ireland and was in use there by the mid 1850’s. Longer drops were in use elsewhere by this time, e.g. in America, but the short drop was still used by many countries at this time e.g. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland & Russia.
The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose. If the eyelet is positioned under the left angle of the jaw it rotates the head backwards, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck and ruptures the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. The later use of the brass eyelet in the noose tended to break the neck with more certainty. It is only in the last six inches or so of the drop that the physical damage to the neck and vertebrae occur as the rope constricts the neck and the force is applied to the vertebrae. The duration of this part of the process is between 0.02 and 0.03 of a second depending upon the length of drop given. Generally the diameter of the noose is found to have reduced some five to seven inches after the drop.

Weight of prisoner: 105 lbs. & under
Drop in feet & inches: 8’ 0”
Ft/lbs energy developed: 840

…

It takes between a half and three quarters of a second for a person to reach the end of the drop after the trap opens. The force produced by the prisoner's body weight multiplied by the length of fall and the force of gravity, coupled with the position of the noose is designed to violently jerk the person’s head backwards and sideways. In medical terms this is known as hyperflexion of the neck, which causes fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, ideally between the C2 & C3 vertebrae, crushing or severing the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness. The cause of death is however comatose asphyxia as the rope constricts the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The Phrenic nerve which controls the diaphragm emerges between the C3 and C4 vertebrae and thus if the fracture occurs above C4 the person's breathing ceases immediately.

Here is an excerpt from an autopsy report involving judicial hanging:

Fracture - dislocation of the spine at C2 with a 2 inch gap and transverse separation of the spinal cord at the same level.
Fracture of both wings of the Hyoid and R. wing of the Thyroid cartilage, larynx also fractured.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html

For RN we see the following:
“There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural, or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal cord. There is no spinal cord softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is intact.”

Wow, morbid as hell.

What is RN was made to stand on the table and then was winched up to a hanging position? Of course some staging would have need to be done prior with the balcony footprints and such.

 

[deanna82437]

I found the attached article to be interesting & the comments worth reading. some interesting info on the autopsy details signaling strangulation vs. hanging. http://coronado.patch.com/articles/report-reveals-other-injuries-details-in-coronado-mansion-death

WOW! Those comments are very enlightening !! Thanks for the link. Great article as well.

 

[Stella5]

There is a set of footprints then not even a fool foot print close to the railing. That suggest she hopped onto the balcony then hopped one more time and fell off. When would she be binding her hands while on the balcony? If she stopped on the balcony to bind her hands I would expect more footprints.

Look again... there are two full sets of prints. I blew it completely up and went over it and you can clearly see them. If I had photo-enhancing software on this laptop I'd highlight it for you. I think she bound her hands, feet, neck and the tshirt in the room. She removed her right hand from the rope in order to free her hands to grab the balcony to get close enough to go over. Applied the gag and then rebound her hands.

 

[justice be served]

I asked that same question why her neck didn't break upthread but certainly not so impressively. thank you and so happy you are on our thread! We need you!

Hey Sunnie, nice to see you here.
I thought I'd stray away from the JonBenet forum and see what trouble I could get into elsewhere.

One of the many things that struck me about the case is that there should have been more serious spinal injuries if we accept the police theory that she jumped/fell from the balcony.
A fall involving that distance recreates an execution, or judicial style of hanging involving intentional spinal fracture, does it not?
Although there are a few “formulas” out there for the distance needed to execute a prisoner by hanging, an 8 foot drop is suggested for someone of RN’s weight.
The autopsy report indicates she fell 9 feet, 2 inches.

The "Long drop" or measured drop method.
In 1872, William Marwood introduced the concept of an accurately calculated drop for the execution of Frederick Horry at Lincoln prison, as a scientifically worked out way of giving the prisoner a humane death. This concept had been developed by doctors in Ireland and was in use there by the mid 1850’s. Longer drops were in use elsewhere by this time, e.g. in America, but the short drop was still used by many countries at this time e.g. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland & Russia.
The long drop method was designed to break the prisoner’s neck by allowing them to fall a pre-determined distance and then be brought up with a sharp jerk by the rope. At the end of the drop, the body is still accelerating under the force of gravity but the head is constrained by the noose. If the eyelet is positioned under the left angle of the jaw it rotates the head backwards, which combined with the downward momentum of the body, breaks the neck and ruptures the spinal cord causing instant deep unconsciousness and rapid death. The later use of the brass eyelet in the noose tended to break the neck with more certainty. It is only in the last six inches or so of the drop that the physical damage to the neck and vertebrae occur as the rope constricts the neck and the force is applied to the vertebrae. The duration of this part of the process is between 0.02 and 0.03 of a second depending upon the length of drop given. Generally the diameter of the noose is found to have reduced some five to seven inches after the drop.

Weight of prisoner: 105 lbs. & under
Drop in feet & inches: 8’ 0”
Ft/lbs energy developed: 840

…

It takes between a half and three quarters of a second for a person to reach the end of the drop after the trap opens. The force produced by the prisoner's body weight multiplied by the length of fall and the force of gravity, coupled with the position of the noose is designed to violently jerk the person’s head backwards and sideways. In medical terms this is known as hyperflexion of the neck, which causes fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, ideally between the C2 & C3 vertebrae, crushing or severing the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness. The cause of death is however comatose asphyxia as the rope constricts the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The Phrenic nerve which controls the diaphragm emerges between the C3 and C4 vertebrae and thus if the fracture occurs above C4 the person's breathing ceases immediately.

Here is an excerpt from an autopsy report involving judicial hanging:

Fracture - dislocation of the spine at C2 with a 2 inch gap and transverse separation of the spinal cord at the same level.
Fracture of both wings of the Hyoid and R. wing of the Thyroid cartilage, larynx also fractured.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html

For RN we see the following:
“There are no fractures of the cervical vertebrae and no epidural, subdural, or subarachnoid hemorrhage of the spinal cord. There is no spinal cord softening. The atlanto-occipital junction is intact.”

 

[SunnieRN]

Re "...the 7/16” red tow rope with yellow handle: warning intended for maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube. Yellow plastic tube that “encircles” one strand of thicker rope..." in AR...

So a 2-rider tow rope for water-sports. That would probably be 60 inches long, with stretch of two to three percent of its length.

So, is the stiffness of the rope on the police video correct? The rope around the bed looks thicker to me?

 

[SunnieRN]

I asked that same question why her neck didn't break upthread but certainly not so impressively. thank you and so happy you are on our thread! We need you!

Psssst, Cynic is a genius!!!
And I agree, we really need his help to understand all of this!

 

[Stella5]

The primary issue I have with this is would not all that length of rope disturb the dirt on the patio to a major degree? And standing there with bound legs and performing that many consecutive loops and what not seems incomprehensible IMO.

I don't think she bound herself on the balcony. I believe that was done in the room. See the post above this one from me. As for the rope disturbing the dirt... I don't know. I know to get the dirt off the boat weekly it takes a lot of scrubbing and water, not just casually dragging something across it. They are right on the water and the grime from the sea water tends to be hard to get off IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Forgive me if this has already been noted, but if RZ is 5’3” and she was estimated to be hanging 2’2” off the ground, that puts the top of her head at 7.5 feet. Why did AS need to stand on a table to cut the rope that theoretically would have been cut-able just above RZ’s neck?
Do we know how tall AS is?

My guess is that he tried it without the table first and was unsuccessful so he got the table. There was also a shirt tied around her neck and that may have hampered his ability because it was somehow entwined where he could cut. That shirt could also explain why his DNA wasn't on the rope.

JMO