CA - Rebecca Zahau Nalepa - suicide or murder? #10

[HowLoveCanBe]

She definitely was not drunk (no alcohol found in her system). No drugs were found in her system either.

This might be a stretch - but if she thought of herself as an artist - she may have wanted to express her suicide in a more dramatic way. If she felt like she was being trapped emotionally maybe she expressed this by self-binding? Painting a message on a door is much more significant/dramatic/committed than writing a note on a piece of paper that you can tear up. Her family has said that she painted as a hobby. I'm a photographer and I know that as an artist you naturally act with a high quotient of creativity. This tendency would be intensified if I knew they were to be my last acts.

 

[sdcali]

The last toe marks are very close to the railing. She may have used the railing almost as a cantilever support so she could clear her lower body of the railing. This would create a rotational momentum.

I agree that the bruising on the top of her head could have been caused the way you described or by someone else hoisting her from her feet over the railing.

I need to go read the AR for the measurements of the bruises. The metal scrolls are very thin and look old and in disrepair-- I wonder if any metal or rust was found in her hair or near her scalp?

 

[MyBelle]

I never thought LE would need permission to remove a body either, but a couple of posters, early on in the threads, thought it was a potential reason for her body to be on public view for so long.

As for oversight, vs lack of respect, LE was present when media helicopters flew over the mansion and began filming.

Either way, it was bad form.

I've already agreed with you that it shouldn't have happened. But I sure don't agree that it had anything to do with lack of respect by LE. Her body was not in public view. It could only be seen from private property or in a private aircraft overhead. "Public" refers to the place the body could be seen from such as public sidewalks, streets, etc.

JMO

JMO

 

[Peaceful]

Much is required from those to whom much is given, for their responsibility is greater. -Luke 12:48

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If you read the post and what she was asking aboit, it was related to Max's fall down the stairs.

Oh..........I am so sorry Sunnie.

My apologies.

I thought she was talking about the reenactment of the ropes. (embarrassed)

 

[belimom]

I also checked out the powerpoint on Max's fall. That carpet looks very soft and plush... I went into Kenny Rogers' house once and the carpet was p-l-u-s-h and spongy, not like the carpet you and I get our regular ol' homes. I'm not saying that's what they had, but I'm betting it was pretty nice.

Just sayin'...

 

[SunnieRN]

Oh..........I am so sorry Sunnie.

My apologies.

I thought she was talking about the reenactment of the ropes. (embarrassed)

No problem at all!!:seeya:

 

[jjenny]

I also checked out the powerpoint on Max's fall. That carpet looks very soft and plush... I went into Kenny Rogers' house once and the carpet was p-l-u-s-h and spongy, not like the carpet you and I get our regular ol' homes. I'm not saying that's what they had, but I'm betting it was pretty nice. Just sayin'...

I believe the carpet is over concrete. He fell from a pretty decent height and injured his spinal cord. That prevented breathing, his brain was not getting enough oxygen, leading to brain death.

 

[scorekeeper]

Autopsy report states the following: Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed.

"livor mortis is not very important in figuring time of death. It is important, however, in determining whether the body has been moved."

bottom of page 25 -http://books.google.com/books?id=XyG3802xSdwC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=livor+mortis,+posterior&source=bl&ots=cVZNbvhKqf&sig=km3keFHXRRPNefG-NCiLpEQsoBo&hl=en&ei=SC5oTseOIInUgQeYx5G2DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=livor%20mortis%2C%20posterior&f=false

Okay, I am not a doctor....or a chemist....

But doesn't posterior mean the back side or butt side? How could her back side have livor mortis, if she died hanging.....shouldn't it show in her legs/feet area.....

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[belimom]

Wow - I've been on this forum far too long tonight. I also feel out of place a little since I haven't been following from the beginning and am playing catch up. I think I'm signing off for the night, but I still think both deaths are highly suspicious... and above all, terribly tragic...

 

[SunnieRN]

"livor mortis is not very important in figuring time of death. It is important, however, in determining whether the body has been moved."

bottom of page 25 -http://books.google.com/books?id=XyG3802xSdwC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=livor+mortis,+posterior&source=bl&ots=cVZNbvhKqf&sig=km3keFHXRRPNefG-NCiLpEQsoBo&hl=en&ei=SC5oTseOIInUgQeYx5G2DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=livor%20mortis%2C%20posterior&f=false

Okay, I am not a doctor....or a chemist....

But doesn't posterior mean the back side or butt side? How could her back side have livor mortis, if she died hanging.....shouldn't it show in her legs/feet area.....

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Hmmm, learned something:

Livor Mortis

Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis is the setting of blood in the lower portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin, when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed. Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on its back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up). Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours.

From here:http://forensicfact.wordpress.com/2...d-how-is-it-useful-to-forensic-investigators/

 

[deanna82437]

Autopsy report states the following: Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed.

I assume this would be what the doctor, Dr. Kessler, was referring to when he referred to blood pooling on her back side? He made that statement on Prime News on HLN tonight. He further stated that she died while on her back. I don't understand all that but would that be close? For those of you who do?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Autopsy report states the following: Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed.

Thanks.

Once the heart stops beating, blood collects in the most dependent parts of the body (livor mortis), the body stiffens (rigor mortis), and the body begins to cool (algor mortis).

The blood begins to settle in the parts of the body that are the closest to the ground, usually the buttocks and back when a corpse is supine. The skin, normally pink-colored because of the oxygen-laden blood in the capillaries, becomes pale as the blood drains into the larger veins. Within minutes to hours after death, the skin is discolored by livor mortis, or what embalmers call "postmortem stain," the purple-red discoloration from blood accumulating in the lowermost (dependent) blood vessels. Immediately after death, the blood is "unfixed" and will move to other body parts if the body's position is changed. After a few hours, the pooled blood becomes "fixed" and will not move. Pressing on an area of discoloration can determine this; if it blanches (turns white) easily, then the blood remains unfixed. Livor mortis is usually most pronounced eight to twelve hours after death. The skin, no longer under muscular control, succumbs to gravity, forming new shapes and accentuating prominent bones still further. The body then begins to cool.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...es+it+take+for+Livor+mortis+to+set+in&ct=clnk

 

[jjenny]

The minimum she was hanging would be 3 and a half hours-time of death estimated at 3 am and AS said he cut her down some time after 6:30 am but before 6:48 am (time of 911 call). Should the blood have become fixed during that time and should livor mortis have developed in her feet? The book says after a few hours the pooled blood becomes fixed and will not move. She was hanging in an upright position for about 3 and a half hours.

 

[alexanderdavis]

Something just dawned on me, sorry if it has already been discussed.

How did Rebecca know how long the rope needed to be to hang herself? Would you be able to guesstimate this? I know I couldn't. If she hung the rope down over the balcony to try and "size things up" before apparently jumping over, there would be more footprints wouldn't you think?

Great point!
I am reminded of when I try and hang a picture. I end up with a bunch of nail holes until I get it just right. Here, I would have to throw the rope over the balcony and check out the length. If it appeared too long, I would have to go back and cut a little off, then a little more off until it appeared visually just right. What are the chances that the rope was already the perfect length. Along with creating extra prints on the railing and balcony floor, there might also be a few pieces of rope that were cut off to shorten the length.

Goodness, I keep thinking about all the work she had to do in the middle of the night, in a short amount of time.
I would have just gone back to bed and hoped that tomorrow would have been a brighter day!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"livor mortis is not very important in figuring time of death. It is important, however, in determining whether the body has been moved."

bottom of page 25 -http://books.google.com/books?id=XyG3802xSdwC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=livor+mortis,+posterior&source=bl&ots=cVZNbvhKqf&sig=km3keFHXRRPNefG-NCiLpEQsoBo&hl=en&ei=SC5oTseOIInUgQeYx5G2DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=livor%20mortis%2C%20posterior&f=false

Okay, I am not a doctor....or a chemist....

But doesn't posterior mean the back side or butt side? How could her back side have livor mortis, if she died hanging.....shouldn't it show in her legs/feet area.....

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

If she was moved.....which she was, and stayed in another position for hours (8 hours or more).... then the livor mortis will concentrate in those areas, imo.

From the link I posted it takes 8-12 hours for the lividity to become pronounced.

So imo when she was moved the lividity gravitated to her backside. Most of the time she was not hanging but was laying on the grass face up.

IMO

 

[jjenny]

Great point!
I am reminded of when I try and hang a picture. I end up with a bunch of nail holes until I get it just right. Here, I would have to throw the rope over the balcony and check out the length. If it appeared too long, I would have to go back and cut a little off, then a little more off until it appeared visually just right. What are the chances that the rope was already the perfect length. Along with creating extra prints on the railing and balcony floor, there might also be a few pieces of rope that were cut off to shorten the length.

Goodness, I keep thinking about all the work she had to do in the middle of the night, in a short amount of time.
I would have just gone back to bed and hoped that tomorrow would have been a brighter day!

There are no foot prints on the balcony to suggest she went there to measure the rope for size. It was a 9 ft drop. Her feet were 2 ft of the ground. Lucky guess?

 

[SunnieRN]

The minimum she was hanging would be 3 and a half hours-time of death estimated at 3 am and AS said he cut her down some time after 6:30 am but before 6:48 am (time of 911 call). Should the blood have become fixed during that time and should livor mortis have developed in her feet? The book says after a few hours the pooled blood becomes fixed and will not move. She was hanging in an upright position for about 3 and a half hours.

I would think that after hanging for 3 1/2 hours, having rigor mortis start, that livor mortis should also have been present in Rebecca's lower extremities. We know she was cut down at 6:30, approx, so that allows up to 3 or so additional hours for livor mortis to continue. Without knowing the temperature of her body, or if her skin still blanched when touched, we don't have all the information.

Also, we know she was in rigor mortis when she was cut down, but we do not really know if she died at 3 as we don't know how long she had been in rigor when cut down. She may have been hanging since 1 am, when the loud music was played. Oh my gosh, I just thought of something.

Anyway, if she died at 1, she would have pretty much been in livor mortis at 6:30/7 a.m.

 

[sdcali]

Great point!
I am reminded of when I try and hang a picture. I end up with a bunch of nail holes until I get it just right. Here, I would have to throw the rope over the balcony and check out the length. If it appeared too long, I would have to go back and cut a little off, then a little more off until it appeared visually just right. What are the chances that the rope was already the perfect length. Along with creating extra prints on the railing and balcony floor, there might also be a few pieces of rope that were cut off to shorten the length.

Goodness, I keep thinking about all the work she had to do in the middle of the night, in a short amount of time.
I would have just gone back to bed and hoped that tomorrow would have been a brighter day!

Great post and good points! Thanks!

There was a lot more to take into consideration for that distance...to determine how much would be needed to account for the distance from the bed, across the room, over the railing and over. And then there is the noose. Next the wrist bindings and foot bindings.

It appears from the photo of the slip loop (one end of the rope) on the bed leg to the notation in the AR that her foot bindings contained the tow rope handle (the other end), all of the rope was used.

 

[deanna82437]

I would think that after hanging for 3 1/2 hours, having rigor mortis start, that livor mortis should also have been present in Rebecca's lower extremities. We know she was cut down at 6:30, approx, so that allows up to 3 or so additional hours for livor mortis to continue. Without knowing the temperature of her body, or if her skin still blanched when touched, we don't have all the information.

Also, we know she was in rigor mortis when she was cut down, but we do not really know if she died at 3 as we don't know how long she had been in rigor when cut down. She may have been hanging since 1 am, when the loud music was played. Oh my gosh, I just thought of something.

Anyway, if she died at 1, she would have pretty much been in livor mortis at 6:30/7 a.m.

BBM
So on what evidence did they estimate TOD at 3am? I still think about that Dr. Kessler stating she died while on her back? What the he11 does that mean? :banghead: