CA - Rebecca Zahau Nalepa - suicide or murder? #11

[cynic]

Actually the forensic lab can detect gloves on a soft plastic material like the paint tube. It also leaves an impression and they can also see glove impressions when they dust for fingerprints.

BBM
In some cases that's possible, but it's not the norm.

Since then, criminals have invested thought and energy in how to successfully foil the detective’s brush and powder. Latex gloves, nitrile gloves, synthetic gloves, they have all been used by malicious perpetrators with varying degrees of success. Today, it is not at all uncommon to find discarded Nitrile gloves at the edge of a crime scene. Black nitrile gloves seem to have become a favorite of many criminals, for various reasons.
Fortunately, it is quite possible to obtain fingerprints from the gloves themselves at this point. They are found left either on the outside from the criminal’s donning or stripping of the glove or on the interior of a tightly fitted glove when it is turned inside out. A pair of Nitrile gloved hands, if tightly fitted, may even leave a print on an exterior surface. After the Nitrile is worn for a while, warming and conforming to the fingers, and the criminal touches any oily surface (something as simple as rubbing one’s neck), a detectable fingerprint can transfer to objects.
http://www.glovenation.com/nitrile-gloves/nitrile-gloves-fingerprints.htm

 

[sorrell skye]

I see no reason why LE would be testing for fingerprints in the entire 27 room mansion.

*respectfully snipped*

When this case was first being investigated, RZ's death was reported as "violent" and "suspicious" (these were SDSO's words). In the early days, SDSO stated they weren't ruling out a possible homicide.

IMO, that was enough reason to investigate every room of the house, including testing for fingerprint and/or DNA evidence.

 

[cynic]

Based on the above scenario, does the absence of anyone else's fingerprints prove that no one other than RZ had been in or near the guest room the night that she died?

I don't believe it does.

ITA, there are well documented cases where there is a complete absence of the perpetrators DNA and fingerprints. Hence the adage of "absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

My opinion is that it is not productive to compare degrees of grief, and I question the statement that grief professionals would attempt to do so. If you could provide a link to that I would appreciate it. My belief is that loss and grief are highly individualized and personal. I think the loss of a child is absolutely DIFFERENT than the loss of a sister, but neither can be judged greater or lesser a loss than the other.

The Psychology Career Center

Loss of a Child
The death of a child may be the most intense grief a person will face ...
The loss of a child is generally considered the worst possible grief, making it one of the leading causes of prolonged grief. In the natural order of life, children are supposed to outlive their parents.

“The death of a child is like no other,” says clinical social worker and grief counselor at the Children’s Hospital and Clinics, Minneapolis, Minn., Theresa Huntley, in her book “When Your Child Dies.” “Your life has been irrevocably changed. Life is different. You are different.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+of+a+child+the+worst+grief+there+is?&ct=clnk

 

[CocoChanel]

ITA, there are well documented cases where there is a complete absence of the perpetrators DNA and fingerprints. Hence the adage of "absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence."

Respectfully BBM
Thank you cynic. This is a lesson I have learned several times in my life, and take to heart.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

*respectfully snipped*

When this case was first being investigated, RZ's death was reported as "violent" and "suspicious" (these were SDSO's words). In the early days, SDSO stated they weren't ruling out a possible homicide.

IMO, that was enough reason to investigate every room of the house, including testing for fingerprint and/or DNA evidence.

I really don't think so Sorrell. It did not take them long to know the guest bedroom was the possible crime scene area and the balcony. If any DNA of another was going to be found in the mansion it would be in the guest room for sure, imo.

Yes, I have seen both homicides and suicides listed as 'violent.' Suicides that are done by hangings, stabbings, decapitation or shootings are seen as violent means to commit suicide. At the time LE didnt know which one it was and that is why they investigated the case for almost 2 months.

 

[sorrell skye]

Fingerprints only show up on things within a certain time period. The items they were dusting for fingerprints hadn't been touched by us for a day or two. That proves to me that Rebecca was the only one on the balcony and in her room because only her prints showed up.

I'm not questioning the evidence investigators found regarding your break-in.

I do know, however, that fingerprint evidence can be found many days after a crime, based on cases I've followed. Fingerprint evidence doesn't necessarily disappear right away.

In addition, the lack of fingerprint evidence doesn't prove that no one has touched an item or surface, either.

 

[sorrell skye]

I think it does. I think it shows this room was not used by anyone in the home and was an extra room among many there. No way someone with this small of a family is going to utilize all 27 rooms, imo. We have 5 bedrooms and I rarely go into the 5th one except to dust and do a deep cleaning.

It may have been used to store some stuff in the bedroom but I don't think it was one they used regularly.

I think the only reason she picked this particular room anyway is because it was the one with the balcony.

bbm

I agree with the bolded portion - I think the reason this particular "guest room" was chosen (by whomever) was because of the balcony.

 

[cynic]

Once, when police were at our home dusting for fingerprints after a break-in, they told us finger prints only survive for so long. That was in response to us asking why our finger prints weren't even found on some key items.

Fingerprints can also last an incredibly long time.

Fingerprints on paper, cardboard and unfinished wood can last for up to forty years (per actual casework histories) unless exposed to water (and contaminate transfer prints can even then sometimes persist). Fingerprints on non-porous surfaces such as plastic, metal and glass can last for many years if not exposed to water and if left undisturbed.
http://onin.com/fp/lpfaq.html


How long a fingerprint will last on any given surface depends on several factors. First, the "Matrix" of the print, or the contaminant or substance that was deposited from the finger plays a role. Most latent prints are composed of sweat or a sweat-oil mix from the glands of the body. But some prints can be composed of other substances, such as blood, grease, dust, etc... Even with natural residue, the percentages of the types of sweat in any particular latent print is unknown, and therefore the length of time it will remain on a surface cannot be determined. The second factor is the substrate itself, or the surface on which the print is deposited. Some surfaces, like glass or metal, receive and hold prints well, whereas some types of plastics may receive a print well, but the detail will diffuse only after a day or two. The third, and perhaps most detrimental factor dealt with in the collection of evidence, is the environmental factor. This includes temperature and humidity, which interact to produce a variety of effects on a print residing on any surface. Further, most consider the handling of the item to fall under this category, which plays a very large role in how long a print will remain intact on an object. In real life, all three factors act on a latent print, and the combination of all these elements determine the longevity of any particular print. It becomes easy to see how fragile this type of evidence is, and reminds us that latent prints truly are "chance" impressions.
http://onin.com/fp/wwwbd/messages/14/78.html?1251991772

 

[CocoChanel]

The Psychology Career Center

Loss of a Child
The death of a child may be the most intense grief a person will face ...
The loss of a child is generally considered the worst possible grief, making it one of the leading causes of prolonged grief. In the natural order of life, children are supposed to outlive their parents.

“The death of a child is like no other,” says clinical social worker and grief counselor at the Children’s Hospital and Clinics, Minneapolis, Minn., Theresa Huntley, in her book “When Your Child Dies.” “Your life has been irrevocably changed. Life is different. You are different.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+of+a+child+the+worst+grief+there+is?&ct=clnk

Who Has the Worst Pain?

by Andrea Gambill
Founder, Good Grief Resources

By inadvertently giving our society the message that certain kinds of relationships or certain kinds of experiences are "worse" or "better" than others, the grief support for some survivors may be in danger of being prematurely aborted or even ignored entirely.

Grief is an individual experience and comforters and caregivers must be careful to support the bereaved on a very personal, each-case basis. Mourners feel the pain of grief in direct proportion to their perception of how important the loved one was in their lives, and that value is entirely subjective.

There is really only one criteria that establishes the quality and quantity of mourning: The intensity of grieving is directly related to the intensity of bonding.

http://http://www.ec-online.net/Library/grief-loss/pain.html

Ocean, I value your opinion, and thank you very much for the reference you linked earlier. I still must respectfully disagree with the practice of quantifying grief. I also recognize it serves no real purpose to debate that here. You have always been polite and respectful in all of your posts and opinions. I hope I have honored that, even if we are on differing sides of this particular fence.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms04.jpg

Notice the plant in the corner. It has broken branches and leaves still on the floor. It looks like someone - most likely Rebecca - tried to clean the carpet. But not much else has been done. So the house hadn't been cleaned since 7/11 at the very least and more likely the week before. So there should have been fingerprints somewhere from someone other than Rebecca. There was a dog bone under the bed frame in the guest room. I will bet you $$$ Max and Ocean were always together. The bone tells me the dog was in the room (unless it was a prop for the stage setting) and I believe Max would have been with him, leaving prints behind. Where is the dog hair? Where did XZ stay? I imagine the S children had their own rooms that would not be used as guest rooms, and I would think they would be the other front bedrooms. That leaves me with XZ in those former maids quarters, now guest rooms. That was the room with the balcony, I'm betting that was the room she stayed in. I guess they could have let her stay in the guest quarters, but at 14 that seems unlikely. IMO.

 

[IWannaKnow]

TY so much, Cynic, for taking the time to come here & give us your opinion.

I've wondered the same thing about the lack of scrapes and/or injuries to RZ's anterior torso.

I agree - if she leaned forward over the railing & somehow managed to hurl herself over, why is there no evidence of that on the front of her body? Since her hands were bound behind her back, and since the placement of footprints & toe prints on the balcony indicates that she DID go over the railing facing forward, where are the torso injuries?

Another thing - if the railing is 36" high (as LE indicated in their PC), that would put the railing several inches above RZ's hip area. I question how it is that she bent over a railing that was too high for her 5'3" frame to bend over without the aid of a stool or some other device to assist in clearing the railing.

I also find it very hard to believe that a 9'2" drop would not have resulted in a cervical spine fracture - or, at the very least, a significant displacement of those vertebrae when she was jerked by the rope. IIRC, the AR indicated the cervical vertebrae were not fractured or displaced, nor was her spinal cord injured.

Thank you for pointing this out sorrell skye. You are so very correct. I am 5'3" as well, and the idea of me being able to propel myself off a railing without the use of my hands is ludicrous as best. Once you are balanced on the railing with your feet off the ground, you will be fairly well balanced and would need a 'boost' to get your feet over, for all the same reasons Val cited in the Max stairwell discussion. Center of gravity. Add to that this:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

Page 10:

TORSO
Chest: None
Abdomen: On the lateral right lower quadrant of the abdomen there is a 1/4 inch pale red abrasion. Just inferior to that is a discontinuous, faint, 1 x 1/8 inch, thin, linear abrasion. On the left lower quadrant of the abdomen along the curvature of the left iliac spine there is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch red abrasion.

The front of her body was clean. Some very small bruises on her lower abdomen. At the least I think she would have to do at least a little rocking back and forth to get her feet over the railing without the use of her hands. But her abdomen does not demonstrate that.

 

[Brit]

I read in RZ's AR that she had very tiny amounts of "black material" (which I am assuming they are referring to the paint) on the tips of two or three fingers. Now if there was enough of a mess made with the paint that some got on her chest and back, why wasn't there more paint found on her hands? Did she wash her hands? If so, I have two questions:
1. if she washed her hands why wouldn't she wash the smears from her chest atleast?
2. was there paint residue found in the sink?

 

[CDS22]

The Psychology Career Center

Loss of a Child
The death of a child may be the most intense grief a person will face ...
The loss of a child is generally considered the worst possible grief, making it one of the leading causes of prolonged grief. In the natural order of life, children are supposed to outlive their parents.

“The death of a child is like no other,” says clinical social worker and grief counselor at the Children’s Hospital and Clinics, Minneapolis, Minn., Theresa Huntley, in her book “When Your Child Dies.” “Your life has been irrevocably changed. Life is different. You are different.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+of+a+child+the+worst+grief+there+is?&ct=clnk

Thank you! You saved me the trouble of pulling it up myself.

 

[CDS22]

Just wondering if anyone knows if they did as thorough an investigation of Max's death? You know, took samples of things around the area he was supposed to have fallen. I know that one of Rebecca's sisters claims there were cuts in the other sister's hands from cleaning up the broken pieces of chandelier. I assumed detectives would want to do that for evidence.

 

[sdcali]

If this was a planned murder to look like a suicide, why didn't the perp turn the chair back over? It would not have taken any time to do that.

Maybe the chair was overturned and meant to be turned back but in the panic of getting the hello out of the house, the perp neglected to do so.

Or, maybe the purpose of the overturned chair was to make the scene so hinky that none of the dots connect. Two knives, two paintbrushes, some paint smears, an overturned chair, a cell phone on the floor, odd sets of footprints, a cryptic message, a towel left in the hall. Carefully wound bindings, a showered body.

I have not studied the facts surrounding suicides. However, I wonder how many of those who bind themselves have similar bindings to Rebecca. How many have painted a message. How many are naked women. How many hang naked outside?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Who Has the Worst Pain?

by Andrea Gambill
Founder, Good Grief Resources

By inadvertently giving our society the message that certain kinds of relationships or certain kinds of experiences are "worse" or "better" than others, the grief support for some survivors may be in danger of being prematurely aborted or even ignored entirely.

Grief is an individual experience and comforters and caregivers must be careful to support the bereaved on a very personal, each-case basis. Mourners feel the pain of grief in direct proportion to their perception of how important the loved one was in their lives, and that value is entirely subjective.

There is really only one criteria that establishes the quality and quantity of mourning: The intensity of grieving is directly related to the intensity of bonding.

http://http://www.ec-online.net/Library/grief-loss/pain.html

Ocean, I value your opinion, and thank you very much for the reference you linked earlier. I still must respectfully disagree with the practice of quantifying grief. I also recognize it serves no real purpose to debate that here. You have always been polite and respectful in all of your posts and opinions. I hope I have honored that, even if we are on differing sides of this particular fence.

Thank you. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I put the link up because I thought you asked for one.

Since thank God I have never lost a child (just letting that enter my mind constricts my chest) I cannot speak from personal experience but I have known those who have losts sibling, parents, dear friends and their own children and I do have to say that those who lost their own children did seem to struggle more and much longer with the loss.

Now that is just based solely on my own experience of knowing people who have lost loved ones. Yet I have also seen ones who lose their spouse of many years and never get over it either.

Honestly, the loss of my beloved husband would turn my world upside down if it happened. I cant even begin to imagine my life without him. It scares me to death to even think about it. And I know what our children mean to me and again I can understand that the loss has to be unimaginable for parents who lose their children.

So I do agree with you in a way...it is how much the loved one means to the family members/friend who have lost them no matter what the kinship may be or it can even be a dear friend.

IMO

 

[Brit]

The rope was just long enough, everything was perfectly proportioned and the entire rope was used. No extra pieces of rope? Perhaps, whoever did this, cut as they were going....ie, bind hands, cut rope,tape legs, make noose, cut rope, oops, got extra rope left, go back and take tape off and bind legs with rope....no extra rope to clean up.

 

[sdcali]

I just can't believe the child fell the way she claimed he did.

respectfully snipped by me.

Just to clarify, it is LE that claims this is the way Maxie fell not Rebecca. No one else has reported seeing anything.

But I agree with you, I am having a hard time believing he launched over the foyer to the other bannister (catching or hitting chandelier and bringing it down with or on top of him) and still bouncing off the bannister and flipping him face forward to the ground.

 

[sorrell skye]

I really don't think so Sorrell. It did not take them long to know the guest bedroom was the possible crime scene area and the balcony. If any DNA of another was going to be found in the mansion it would be in the guest room for sure, imo.

Yes, I have seen both homicides and suicides listed as 'violent.' Suicides that are done by hangings, stabbings, decapitation or shootings are seen as violent means to commit suicide. At the time LE didnt know which one it was and that is why they investigated the case for almost 2 months.

Two kitchen knives were found in the crime scene bedroom & marked as evidence.

Rope that allegedly came from a shelf in the garage was found in the crime scene bedroom and was also around the victim's neck, wrists, and ankles & was marked as evidence.

A white trash bag, a tube of black acrylic paint, and two paint brushes were found in the crime scene bedroom and were marked as evidence.

A blue tee shirt was wrapped around the victim's neck, and was stuffed into her mouth.

Another kitchen knife that was used to cut the victim down was found in the courtyard on the ground, and was marked as evidence.

IMO, based on the items found in the crime scene bedroom & elsewhere, a thorough investigation of locations other than the crime scene bedroom (in order to find potential fingerprints and DNA) was more than warranted.