Calling the friends over?

[rashomon]

Your response is well thought out, however once again SD I say your giving Patsy way too much credit. Unless she planned all this way in advance I find it hard to belive she could of thought all this out in the few short hours she has. Especially considering (if you do)she has just been involved in the murder of her daughter. She doesn't strike me as being that clever.

I think it has less to do with cleverness than with an adrenaline rush which made Patsy write the note the way she did. She wildly threw in different scenarios in the frantic hope that at least one would be swallowed by the investigators.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I've been surprised at the depths people will go to when in the hour of desperation, and I think that's what we see in the RN - Patsy trying to draw from every source she knows, struggling desperately to extract herself from a very serious situation. She didn't plan that out - she was able to think quick in a tight spot. I think Patsy could have written a more authentic-sounding RN had she had time to prepare for it.

 

[BBB167893]

Your response is well thought out, however once again SD I say your giving Patsy way too much credit. Unless she planned all this way in advance I find it hard to belive she could of thought all this out in the few short hours she has. Especially considering (if you do)she has just been involved in the murder of her daughter. She doesn't strike me as being that clever.

To wit:

I think it has less to do with cleverness than with an adrenaline rush which made Patsy write the note the way she did. She wildly threw in different scenarios in the frantic hope that at least one would be swallowed by the investigators.

That's what a lot of the investigators think, or thought, anyway.

She didn't plan that out - she was able to think quick in a tight spot. I think Patsy could have written a more authentic-sounding RN had she had time to prepare for it.

I meant what I said when I wrote that without the note, there was nothing specific to the crime. Let me explain that in further detail.

What I mean is, let's say they finish up all the garrote and molestation-that-wasn't stuff. There's still a big problem: there's no motive that is readily apparent to this if it was an intruder. The note provided one: a kidnapping gone wrong. Quite simple, really.

CASKU called this crime "criminally unsophisticated." IOWs, amateur night.

 

[4sure]

What I mean is, let's say they finish up all the garrote and molestation-that-wasn't stuff. There's still a big problem: there's no motive that is readily apparent to this if it was an intruder. The note provided one: a kidnapping gone wrong. Quite simple, really.

CASKU called this crime "criminally unsophisticated." IOWs, amateur night.

This discussion I'm afraid is turning into a childs game of ring around the rosie. Agian are they being quick and smart on their feet or are the being stupid and sloppy. An apparent "intruder" is solved by opening a door or a window. A kidnapping gone wrong is simply not set up by staging a sexual assualt. Yet this is what makes this case so unique. Nothing like it has been seen before or since.

 

[BBB167893]

"Agian are they being quick and smart on their feet or are the being stupid and sloppy."

I think you misunderstand. These were not professional criminals. Their only knowledge of crime scenes came from movies, TV and books. That's my point: if that's your baseline, you're gonna screw it up, not matter how well you THINK you did. "Smart" and "stupid" don't figure into it. There's a BIG difference between being intelligent and knowing what you're doing.

I would think an intelligent poster such as yourself would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

It was amateur night, you could tell. Or at least, CASKU could. Let's take a look:

The FBI deemed the entire crime "criminally unsophisticated"

The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to "undo" the murder in one's own mind

An apparent 'intruder' is solved by opening a door or a window.

There's enough to suggest that was done, 4sure. But the scenario doesn't WORK as it's set up if there is an obvious point of entry. Here's what I mean:

the whole POINT is to find the note. Nothing can be immediately out of place, because they HAVE to find the note first. It doesn't work if they get up like,
"Morning, honey. God, it's cold in here!"

A kidnapping gone wrong is simply not set up by staging a sexual assault.

That's what I said. That's why they needed the note. The note provided a motive, especially if there was a person they had in mind to put the frame on.

Nothing like it has been seen before or since.

Exactly! You're making my case for me.

Am I ALONE here?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

So what kind of crime was it? Was it a kidnapping, a sexual assault, or a murder? It was all three? Hmmm, this breed of criminal doesn't exist. Parents who have never been involved in crime and need to stage a scene to make people think they weren't involved may not know that.

This is where I tell people you need to not look at individual pieces but step back and look at the whole puzzle. The crime scene, in connection with the evidence of prior molestation, combined with the parents' continued contradictions and inability to cooperate with investigation, plus the lack of forensic evidence of an intruder, in addition to the fiber evidence of parental involvement, not to mention the RN that Patsy can't be eliminated as author of (and all the times she says the killer may be female! WTF!!! Confess much?) all indicate this crime was committed by a Ramsey and not by an intruder.

 

[BBB167893]

Parents who have never been involved in crime and need to stage a scene to make people think they weren't involved may not know that.

Until I studied this case, I sure didn't know it!

You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[JMO8778]

If PR thinks the RN saved her butt, then I bet she did thk God(which one, I don't know,couldnt be the one above...) for it.

 

[JMO8778]

I suspect JR did know what was going on b/f PR made the 911 call.Reason being,the way it was said that he was heard talking so harshly to BR on the tape,so think about it for a minute... they didn't want anyone to know BR was up yet,(per a plan I think they hatched prior to calling,since they lied about it),so the picture I get from this is: JR standing beside PR as she makes the call,in case she needs any coaching from him.BR is messing up the plan by getting up already,so JR snaps at him,and after PR hangs up,sends him back to bed with instructions to be quiet and not to get up until they say he can.
The fact that PR made the call and wrote the RN, I suspect, also makes me wonder why JR distances himself from it all.Even him saying PR made the call b/c 'that's just the way we do things', doesn't make any sense in that situation.I would think he would have made the call himself if it had been a real KN.
I also wonder if PR would have even been able to compose the RN if she was the one that killed JB.I suspect she wouldn't have been able to do either.I think she was covering for JR...JMO.

 

[BBB167893]

Never underestimate anyone.

 

[JMO8778]

Never underestimate anyone.

very true,I'm a FS;I go between thinking it was JR to PR.I don't think it was BR though.Maybe I'm wrong , but I don't think the case would have made it to a GJ if they were covering for him.

 

[4sure]

There's enough to suggest that was done, 4sure. But the scenario doesn't WORK as it's set up if there is an obvious point of entry. Here's what I mean:

the whole POINT is to find the note. Nothing can be immediately out of place, because they HAVE to find the note first. It doesn't work if they get up like,
"Morning, honey. God, it's cold in here!"

Why? JBR is not in her bed note or no note.

That's what I said. That's why they needed the note. The note provided a motive, especially if there was a person they had in mind to put the frame on.

For me the note is too long and personal to be written just to provide motive. For me it only has two reasons to exist.

To explain why JBR is not in her bed and maybe to avoid a search of the home.

As a message to JR.

I don't see it as written by PR. PR knows JR is not from the south. The RN writer is under that impression. I know JR is aware of that fact.

Exactly! You're making my case for me.

You have a politicians touch of twisting words SD. However "never seeing anything like it before" can in no way support staging with information from T.V. and movies. Just ask GB.

 

[rashomon]

I don't see it as written by PR. PR knows JR is not from the south. The RN writer is under that impression.

Patsy could have used this as a deliberate ruse to direct attention away from her (so that investigators should think his wife couldn't have written the note, for she knew John wasn't from the south ...).
Another possible explanation: Patsy at that moment simply had forgotten that John wasn't originally from the south, for he had been living in the south long enough and adopted the lifestyle.
Imo the ransom note points to the writer being from the south - a writer proud of possessing 'that good southern common sense' which she wants John to use too ...

And if you don't see Patsy as the writer of the note - here is a link where her handwiting is compared to the ransom note. The similarities are striking.
One poster wrote, "If this doesn't do it, nothing will."
A must-read for everyone who wants to discuss the ransom note:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

 

[UKGuy]

The ransom note is a staged piece of forensic evidence. Its intended to give you the wrong impression.

Whomever wrote it was a Ramsey since all the materials were sourced from inside the house, and there is no evidence of intruder entry.

You cannot use it to corroborate any favorite theory precisely because it is not a real ransom note, its fake!


.

 

[BBB167893]

For me the note is too long and personal to be written just to provide motive. For me it only has two reasons to exist.

To explain why JBR is not in her bed and maybe to avoid a search of the home.

As a message to JR.

I never said it was a professional job.

I don't see it as written by PR. PR knows JR is not from the south. The RN writer is under that impression. I know JR is aware of that fact.

Saying that John had "good, Southern common sense" was something of a private joke in the family.

You have a politicians touch of twisting words SD. However "never seeing anything like it before" can in no way support staging with information from T.V. and movies. Just ask GB.

Who is GB?

And it certainly can. People who aren't real criminals don't know what a real crime scene looks like, so they don't know that ransom kidnappers and pedophile killers are two different animals.

One poster wrote, "If this doesn't do it, nothing will."

That was me.

 

[jubie]

It's been a while since I've looked at the comparison between the ransom note and Patys's hand writing yet every time I do it's just as powerful as the first time. How on earth could the experts not say definitively that Patsy wrorte the note? Argh!



Jubie

 

[4sure]

Saying that John had "good, Southern common sense" was something of a private joke in the family..

So I'm sure the R's would incriminate themselves by including inside family jokes on their RN which is to provide proof of a stranger/intruder.

Who is GB?

George Bush

And it certainly can. People who aren't real criminals don't know what a real crime scene looks like, so they don't know that ransom kidnappers and pedophile killers are two different animals.

SD, do real criminals know what real crime scenes look like or do they just leave them that way?

 

[sandraladeda]

It's been a while since I've looked at the comparison between the ransom note and Patys's hand writing yet every time I do it's just as powerful as the first time. How on earth could the experts not say definitively that Patsy wrorte the note? Argh!



Jubie

I totally agree! Argh is right!

 

[kaykay]

First off, I would like to say I haven't posted for a few years due to a loss of a loved one.

I still read the post. I notice lot's of the oldies must be hibernating.
I had to reregister I used to be kk.

To get on with my opinion, "Calling Friends Over"

Some posted who they would call if this happened to them.

My thought would be to call anyone that had any connection with this horrific
act. Patsy would want everyone to get their stories straight. Maybe she called and told them "the kids killed JB".

If I was told my child would die if I call the police or anyone. I would be too scared to use the phone, even the cell. I know I would have to call the FBI
But I would beg them not to drive up in a car or let anyone see them.

Didn't all these friends have kids close to the same age as BR and JB?
I wonder who watched their kids while they were at the Ram's?
I know if I was told there was a kidnapper on the loose I wouldn't leave my kids alone, even if there wasn't a kidnapper.

I think FW guest were still at his house so they could watch the kids?

I think it's very odd after all these years no one has talked ( any of the friends) I know Woodpecker is eager to sue. I don't know about laws, but can you be sued for telling the truth?

I have always wondered if BR had a friend/s spending the night, yes, I know they were leaving very early for their second Christmas with the older kids.
Maybe they were allowing BR to take a friend with him and they could stay up late to play with the Christmas toys, they could sleep on the flight.

The broken window in the basement, I never believed that story.
Could BR have let more friends inside to play that night and it got broken?

I guess you know by now I am a BDI person. But not on purpose, I think things got out of hand. The play got too rough so they even went farther with the garrote, trying to cover up by making up a story

They said the blow to the head was so severe it had to be caused with a strong force.

I remember when I was a kid I would see kids play and they would take another kid by the ankles and twirl around and around just to get dizzy.

If the head was hit on something while doing this, one would assume this was done with great force.

I do think Patsy wrote the note and did the staging.
She didn't want to lose another child, even if he was too young for jail she would want to protect him.

Was DNA taken from all the children of their friends?

Can BR still be questioned or asked to take a polygraph? How about the other
kids now that they are older?

I think Patsy was up all night staging.

I'm not saying I know this happened...this is just my opinion and I do have other opinions :twocents:
kaykay

 

[SallyLu]

Kaykay, I'm sorry for your loss of your loved one.


Rashomon, thankyou for the link to Patsy's handwriting and the ransom note. Powerful stuff! I actually felt my heart race while looking over the comparables. There's no denying that Patsy was the author of the note - if you can call it a note. I like the term the War and Peace of ransom notes.