Calling the friends over?

[4sure]

So when did the international sex ring molest JonBenet prior to the day of the murder? Did they do it at school? The pageants? At the dance lessons? Wardrobe fittings? Sneak into the Ramseys house several nights previously and do it without JB waking up?

I don't get the child sex ring angle....can you explain your theory? Beyond a child sex ring cover up. How John and Patsy became involved and why they let a sex ring molest and murder their daughter?

She may have never been molested Show Me. Her death may have well just been an accident and not murder. The R's may have or may have not know they were becomming involved with this "child sex ring". I cannot answer any of your questions with any certainty.
I can however tell you that they exsist, they make lots of money, they involve people with political connections and power.
I have no definite theory at this time.

 

[Eagle1]

We weren't any of us there, so how could we pinpoint exactly WHEN an international pedophile ring HQ'd in Boulder molested JBR so much her hymen was worn away?

WHEN may be beside-the-point, something nobody can determine unless they were involved. There were surely opportunities of some kind. Parents' involvemnet and/or whatever.

I'm thinking the parents may have considered it good business practice to go along with whatever "recreations" were considered normal with the "in" crowd in Boulder, never thinking JB could be killed. She was probably sedated and they didn't expect her to have any real memory of whatever was going on.

 

[Solace]

We weren't any of us there, so how could we pinpoint exactly WHEN an international pedophile ring HQ'd in Boulder molested JBR so much her hymen was worn away?

WHEN may be beside-the-point, something nobody can determine unless they were involved. There were surely opportunities of some kind. Parents' involvemnet and/or whatever.

I'm thinking the parents may have considered it good business practice to go along with whatever "recreations" were considered normal with the "in" crowd in Boulder, never thinking JB could be killed. She was probably sedated and they didn't expect her to have any real memory of whatever was going on.

With all due respect folks, whereever you are going with these theories is not washing. JonBenet was killed by someone in the family, someone in the house that night. Not the friends, not a pedofile ring, and not the boogie man. IMO it was Patsy most likely. It is really hard to explain that 8 1/2 inch gash across her skull. That had to be some push if it were by accident. But there is just too much evidence against Patsy, the fibers found all over the place in the basement and the note and the likeness to Patsy's handwriting and the fibers from John's shirt in the underwear and the more I write, the more I am convinced.

Also, the fact that within a half hour of finding JonBenet, he is on the phone trying to leave. I am trying to think if I could leave my child if she had just been found. I think not. I think I am going to look more like Rhett Butler with "Bonnie". There is just no way.

IMO.

 

[Show Me]

She may have never been molested Show Me. Her death may have well just been an accident and not murder. The R's may have or may have not know they were becomming involved with this "child sex ring". I cannot answer any of your questions with any certainty.
I can however tell you that they exsist, they make lots of money, they involve people with political connections and power.
I have no definite theory at this time.

Yeah child sex rings exist....BUT that doesn't mean the Ramsey's were involved in one, so why do you think they are?

How are the Ramseys linked to the child sex ring? Through John? Patsy? And what has convinced you they are?

 

[rashomon]

With all due respect folks, whereever you are going with these theories is not washing. JonBenet was killed by someone in the family, someone in the house that night. Not the friends, not a pedofile ring, and not the boogie man. IMO it was Patsy most likely. It is really hard to explain that 8 1/2 inch gash across her skull. That had to be some push if it were by accident. But there is just too much evidence against Patsy, the fibers found all over the place in the basement and the note and the likeness to Patsy's handwriting and the fibers from John's shirt in the underwear and the more I write, the more I am convinced.

Also, the fact that within a half hour of finding JonBenet, he is on the phone trying to leave. I am trying to think if I could leave my child if she had just been found. I think not. I think I am going to look more like Rhett Butler with "Bonnie". There is just no way.
IMO.

ITA, Solace. There is just no evidence to back up a pedophile ring theory. Nor is there any evidence to suggest a lone sexual predator abusing JB in her own home with the whole family being present in the home. Totally ridiculous. The damaging fiber evidence also points to no one else than the Ramseys themselves.
And no IDI has ever been able to explain why an intruder would write a faked ransom note. For not even the Ramseys themselves believed in the small foreign faction, lol. They themselves spoke of the killer as one person. ("He is an evil, evil person"). I think at that moment they had completely forgotten the small foreign faction nonsense which they had written in the note.

Good comparison to Rhett Butler in "Gone With the Wind" not wanting to leave the dead body of his daughter Bonnie. Like Steve Thomas said, parents normally resist leaving the body.
But the Ramseys? They were out of the house pretty soon after JB's dead body had been discovered, leaving her lying there under the Christmas tree in the living room like a broken doll beyond repair.

 

[Solace]

ITA, Solace. There is just no evidence to back up a pedophile ring theory. Nor is there any evidence to suggest a lone sexual predator abusing JB in her own home with the whole family being present in the home. Totally ridiculous. The damaging fiber evidence also points to no one else than the Ramseys themselves.
And no IDI has ever been able to explain why an intruder would write a faked ransom note. For not even the Ramseys themselves believed in the small foreign faction, lol. They themselves spoke of the killer as one person. ("He is an evil, evil person"). I think at that moment they had completely forgotten the small foreign faction nonsense which they had written in the note.

Good comparison to Rhett Butler in "Gone With the Wind" not wanting to leave the dead body of his daughter Bonnie. Like Steve Thomas said, parents normally resist leaving the body.
But the Ramseys? They were out of the house pretty soon after JB'd dead body had been discovered, leaving her lying there under the Christmas tree in the living room like a broken doll beyond repair.

Hi Rash,

Especially if the child were strangled, the mother, at the very least, would be inconsolable. And I mean, she would have to be restrained and sedated. That is if she truly did not have anything to do with this and was as surprised as everyone. "You raised Lazarus from the dead, just ain't cutting it". Nice try though.:boohoo:

 

[Eagle1]

Solace, how in the world can we be so sure only the Ramseys were in the house? We can't possibly know that. Just because they said so or didn't say others were there?

I'd like to post here the same thing I answered in another thread, to the question why would the killer take the trouble to learn Patsy's writing style and then only ask for such a small amount. For fun! Sadistic fun, power over them, and not needing their money but just wanting to show off that he knew their bonus amount, had been "monitoring" them.

From the other thread, "Maybe I Can Answer That
Mindset of the "Intruder" friend or whatever, showing off his POWER to (1) "monitor" them, (2) impersonate them almost perfectly, (3) kill their child with impunity, (4) ) have them hounded about it the rest of their lives.never being able to do anything about it even if they know or suspect who did it or caused it to be done,(5) Amount was also sarcasm, and to show that he knew how much the bonus was, didn't really need money, etc. Whole thing a showing-off, that he had immunity and power over these people. He was also showing off that he did not need ransom money. Cruel as the devil himself. He'd probably flattered the R's in some way to get close to them. Awfully prideful himself, he probably figured the R's were prideful and needed his "humbling", which would stay with them the rest of their lives.

" If" Patsy wrote the note, so what, she had no choice but to try to cover up what may have really been going on with "the friends". "If" she wrote the note it still doesn't prove she killed JonBenet, and the thrush (mouth?) infection may indicate oral sex by a male was being forced on the probably-sedated child. Nobody's proved that anybody did it, so far. Appearances can be deceiving. So deceiving.

Remember the Valerie Plame or Plume thing, which just may have all been staged to remind Americans that we can't expose a secret agent?

I'm thinking it's "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold" who caused all this, maybe didn't personally kill her, meant to google that title and see what it's about, just borrowing it anyway.

According to some crime shows on MSNBC Sunday night, serial killers get high on killing just like on heroin, are motivated by POWER, and have to soon have another. An addiction. Maybe there's no other family just like the Ramseys showing off their child in the same way, beauty queens and wealth, or we'd hear of another humbling murder.

We haven't heard of this exact m.o. in any other case unless Danielle Van Dam, if that guy who's in prison for it was just a fall guy. I forget his name. Westerfield?

MSNBC was/ were showing profiles, that Rampage killers are motivated differently from serial ones, typically have moved far from home for a job, leaving their support system behind, and it all falls through, so they may decide to kill a thousand people, usually are stopped before 25, kill themselves. There should maybe be a profile for this type of killer, like Adam Walsh's killer, but not enough is known about them yet, must be few and far between. They met him in Houston? Just a tentative theory that would explain some things, correctly or not. "

 

[Nuisanceposter]

We can be reasonably sure the only people in the house that night were the Ramseys because there is no forensic evidence of anyone else, and because of the fiber evidence indicating both John and Patsy were involved (plus the aspects seen by CASKU et al that this crime scene gave every indication of being a staged crime covering up parental involvement.)

It looks like Patsy's handwriting because it was Patsy's handwriting. The Ramseys contradicted their own stories and were caught lying in the investigation of their daughter's murder more than once - repeatedly, in fact, when they were able to recall details at all. Clearly they were covering up for someone or something, and the only people they would ever cover for that long and that hard is one of their own.

 

[BBB167893]

"Killer couldn't even keep 'his' motive straight".....End of Quote.....

Right, 'he' threw in everything but the kitchen sink and sex!

So is that motive conspicuous by its absence or what?

I'll say!

Someone will say because the whole idea of the RN was a distraction from the real motive. Anything else?

It might be simpler than all that. Remember, the writer was going by what they thought a ransom note would sound like.

 

[4sure]

Yeah child sex rings exist....BUT that doesn't mean the Ramsey's were involved in one, so why do you think they are?

How are the Ramseys linked to the child sex ring? Through John? Patsy? And what has convinced you they are?

I am not convinced, its only one of my suspicions. I know the attempt to cover up JBR's death involves more than just the R's. When people risk going to jail to cover up the death of a child, it tells me they have a lot to lose.

 

[4sure]

We can be reasonably sure.

But we are not beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Eagle1]

But we are not beyond a reasonable doubt.

As I was saying in another thread, we haven't had a spy theory yet. Shall we? I didn't see "The Spy Who Came in From the Cold", but have heard there were a lot of ulterior motives.

A lazy spy who watched movies instead of working? Who had forgery in his bag of tricks, his bag of spy skills, also ability not to leave any forensic evidence, very possibly had been in the house before and collected samples of PR's handwriting style, very very proud of his ability to fake it, also of his ability to monitor them, and maybe a spy would tend to have foreign factions on the brain than an American mother only interested in pageants. I think the reason the RN was so long is because it's a showing off of his power. This isn't my favorite theory, just one of many.

The forensic evidence all pointing to the Ramseys simply means they weren't the ones placing it, doing the staging.

 

[4sure]

The "Someone" who may have been the killer would be a show-off, braggart type of person, gloating over his power to monitor people, (all of us?) and to kill, with impunity, may have some kind of immunity, reason officials don't go after him. .

While I'm not sure I agree with everything Eagle1, I'm sure in this ballpark. I have read every analysis of the RN I can find, and all of them have one thing in common. OVER ANALYSIS.
From the very first time I read the RN, one thing rang out through my mind.
M-E-S-S-A-G-E.
To put it as simply as I can.

John,
Jon Bonet is gone.
You know who we are.
This is your excuse and our game.
You better play along.
You know what we are capable of doing.
Don't try anything smart.

I especially like Eagle1's thoughts on "killing with a message." Remember the family found shot to death on the side of the highway in Florida? The responding officers thought it seemed to be a message killing.
Certainly it has little to do with the JBR case but I especially like what the movie JFK II has to say about killing with a message. For those who would like to check it out you can view it on YouTube(thank God for YouTube)the movie is chopped into 11 parts. The moment I refer to unfortunately is located at the end of part 10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr16kaiaze8&mode=related&search= and the start of part 11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggw2agehYns. If you want to watch the whole movie you can view it here on Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031 or you can slide up to 1:20:00 to view the section I refer to. For those who have seen the movie I apoligize for all the links.

 

[Rupert]

A lazy spy who watched movies instead of working? Who had forgery in his bag of tricks, his bag of spy skills, also ability not to leave any forensic evidence, very possibly had been in the house before and collected samples of PR's handwriting style, very very proud of his ability to fake it, also of his ability to monitor them, and maybe a spy would tend to have foreign factions on the brain than an American mother only interested in pageants.

hmmm... someone controlling, envious
maybe had a friend with a padded stick that could do damage

 

[Eagle1]

According to the Bonita Papers, a link someone gave in another thread, too long to read in one sitting, in the section about the skull, it was said there was a rectangular area, besides the 8" long fracture. For whatever that's worth.

Padded sticks are used in the Philippines, where JR had been stationed for a while?

It seems several characters liked to play games. In the Bonita Papers Crime & Clues link, it's also mentioned that when the R's went to the Stines' after Pasta Jay's losing it with media people, S. Stine invented code names for all of them, such as Ozzie and Harriet, and that she called Nedra "Dr. Ruth". I guess she was assuming they were being monitored and wanted to confuse anyone listening in on them. The subject is weapons, I know, and I'm just speculating whether someone was playing with types of weapons that would make some kind of statement to someone in some way. IOW, can you elaborate about the padded stick possibility? Could one make a rectangular hole in her skull?

 

[Show Me]

The forensic evidence all pointing to the Ramseys simply means they weren't the ones placing it, doing the staging.

What??????????????? Who else's pad, pen, paintbrush etc, were they going to use instead? The neighbors?

The Ramseys used the Ramsey's stuff 'cause it was all they had and no time to go shopping. IMO

 

[4sure]

What??????????????? Who else's pad, pen, paintbrush etc, were they going to use instead? The neighbors?

The Ramseys used the Ramsey's stuff 'cause it was all they had and no time to go shopping. IMO

You want us to believe these people were clever/smart/intelligent/ enough to "stage" the crime scene, contaminate the the home by "planning" to invite their friends over and even "planning" to find the body alone in the basement so they could destroy any evidence that may be located on the body itself, yet their dumb enough to use their own pen and paper to write a ransome note thats 3 pages long that would be useful evidence to the police. Help!

 

[icedtea4me]

You want us to believe these people were clever/smart/intelligent/ enough to "stage" the crime scene, contaminate the the home by "planning" to invite their friends over and even "planning" to find the body alone in the basement so they could destroy any evidence that may be located on the body itself, yet their dumb enough to use their own pen and paper to write a ransome note thats 3 pages long that would be useful evidence to the police. Help!

A subconscious need to confess.

-Tea

 

[Show Me]

You want us to believe these people were clever/smart/intelligent/ enough to "stage" the crime scene, contaminate the the home by "planning" to invite their friends over and even "planning" to find the body alone in the basement so they could destroy any evidence that may be located on the body itself, yet their dumb enough to use their own pen and paper to write a ransome note thats 3 pages long that would be useful evidence to the police. Help!

yep...I do


Which really amazes me why Mary Lacy peeked out from her hair curtains and arrested Karr with no evidence whatsoever and a confession that kept getting the basic details wrong.

Lacy works for John Ramsey and follows his every command.

 

[BBB167893]

Which really amazes me why Mary Lacy peeked out from her hair curtains and arrested Karr with no evidence whatsoever and a confession that kept getting the basic details wrong.

Lacy works for John Ramsey and follows his every command.

She makes me sick!

You want us to believe these people were clever/smart/intelligent/ enough to "stage" the crime scene, contaminate the the home by "planning" to invite their friends over and even "planning" to find the body alone in the basement so they could destroy any evidence that may be located on the body itself, yet their dumb enough to use their own pen and paper to write a ransome note thats 3 pages long that would be useful evidence to the police. Help!

Maybe Mr. McCrary can help you:

Noncriminals who stage crime scenes generally reveal their lack of criminal sophisitication. They typically don't know what real crime scenes look like, because their knowledge of crimes comes from what they have read in books, or have see on TV and in movies. The false motives that are staged by criminally unsophisticated offenders are discernible because they are inconsistent with much of the forensic evidence present in the crime and the crime scene