Camel Blue cigarette butts found at both crime scenes

  • #21
As I posted above, that interview is from 1998. I have found nothing about a key hidden outside mentioned in the earlier interviews given in April of 1997.

This interview with PR I find quite interesting, as it underscores how inconsistent they were with so many things. And as is mentioned, that one paragraph of comment from PR is literally nonsensical. In JR's interviews with police and they are discussing his having to break a window to get in the house and more than once, he has never mentioned a hidden key elsewhere. He never mentions Pierre.

...
SBM, BBM

that's the second time i've noticed where PR, on a fairly important point, gives an answer that sort of dissolves into gibberish. the other one being her nonsense non-answer about the cell phones. do people think that's a deliberate tactic? say something that feels like an answer to people who aren't paying close attention, but essentially just muddying the waters for people who are?

at any rate, claiming they had a spare key hidden outside that was now missing is an untestable theory that conveniently creates reasonable doubt out of thin air. ... IF we believe her. and with no prior mention of this key in earlier statements to police, i don't believe her.
 
  • #22
SBM, BBM

that's the second time i've noticed where PR, on a fairly important point, gives an answer that sort of dissolves into gibberish. the other one being her nonsense non-answer about the cell phones. do people think that's a deliberate tactic? say something that feels like an answer to people who aren't paying close attention, but essentially just muddying the waters for people who are?

at any rate, claiming they had a spare key hidden outside that was now missing is an untestable theory that conveniently creates reasonable doubt out of thin air. ... IF we believe her. and with no prior mention of this key in earlier statements to police, i don't believe her.
Oh, yes.....I reread what she said about the cell phones over and over and still couldn't figure out that gibberish. She was not unintelligent and usually could speak in public coherently. So I do think her episodes of "non-speak" are deliberate. It counters her usual "I don't know, I don't remember, I can't recall" responses.

For the record, I don't believe her either.
 
  • #23
Camel Blues were available in 2010
 
  • #24
The cigarette butts as evidence of IDI feels incredibly weak to me. A fairly commonly smoked brand turning up in two locations that can, at best, be tenuously linked to the two incidents isn't really evidence of anything, expect that one or more people in the area smoked that brand. Nearly a quarter of adults and approximately a third of young people in the US smoked in 1996, that's a lot of people.

The Gnome-key, assuming it existed in the first place, isn't particularly strong evidence of an intruder either. PR dropping an barely coherent word-salad about it's existence some time later isn't particularly convincing, especially given it's sudden appearance in the narrative ~2 years later when suspicion of RDI was building. Any time potentially exculpatory claims are made by someone under suspicion they should be treated with scepticism until they can be independently corroborated (i.e. JR wouldn't "count" for corroborating PR nor visa-versa as both were suspected)

But even assuming we take PR's account of it at face value - by her own admission they weren't diligent about returning it after use, had occasion to use it herself and found it not present and she can offer no indication as to whether it was there at the time of the murder or not.

But let's make (another) assumption that the key was indeed present under "Pierre" at that time, an intruder who either knew that's where they kept a spare or successfully guessed the hiding place (not especially difficult, mats, non-fixed ornaments etc near doors are easily checked and common enough hiding places) could have used it to gain entry. But even with those (multiple) assumptions all that does is ascertain that it's possible - it provides no evidence whatsoever that it actually happened.

On to your theory of the note:

brought a pre-written ransom note and transcribed it onto Patsy's notepad, and faked a rough draft to make it appear it was freestyled, because it was part of the framing of the Ramseys

In your scenario this intruder is motivated to cast suspicion on the Ramseys, so much so that they are willing to go to fairly convoluted lengths to do so - copying a lengthy yet obviously preposterous ransom note on to their note pad, including a faked draft no less. Presumably with the intent that anyone reading the note (which would normally be a signal of an external actor) would instead take those factors as evidence of the Ramseys guilt. Of course such measures would be unnecessary - you don't need to discredit the note as coming from an intruder if you simply don't leave a note in the first place. This person (per the key-under-Pierre theory of access) has already gained access to the house in such a way that there's no sign of forced entry, there's no dirt or detritus from outside, no finger prints - no real evidence of someone else being present at all. With the body of their child on the premises and no ransom note there's going to be a veritable avalanche of suspicion falling on the Ramseys anyway. Probably far more so than with the a note of debatable provenance!

Is it impossible? No, and people do all kinds of things that appear to run counter to common sense and rationality all the time. But, as with the Pierre-key above not proving something to be impossible is not the same thing as evidence that it happened. I'm not someone who puts much likelihood on IDI in the first place - but this doesn't even strike me as the most likely IDI explanation.
 
  • #25
I agree that RDI is more of a likelyhood, when viewed in a RDI perspective. IDI is not impossible, but unlikely. When viewed in an IDI perspective, the events are similar to the scenario of an offender that preys on people in their homes. Here's something to consider. The offender would bring a bag with polypropylene cord and duct tape, a prewritten note, some cloth for transferring random fibers and a key or tools for making unforced entry. Watch the home and when the Ramsey's leave, stay on the walkway and avoid the snow for footprints. Always be wearing gloves. Enter the home, familiarize with Jon Benet's room location and other parts of the house. Pick up the swiss army knife found in a cupboard. Find a hiding place for when they arrive and wait. Make the garrote, get the ligatures ready. Once the house is quiet, sneak up on Jon Benet and grab her as she puts a piece of pineapple in her mouth because she happened to get out of bed like Burke was at some point, as he had stated. With a gloved hand over her mouth, drag her to the basement. During this hour roughly abuse her to keep her quiet as she is whimpering and scared. Put the garotte/noose around her neck. Penetrate her with a piece of the paint brush, when she yelps smash her over the head. Wipe her upper legs with a cloth to apply fibers, pull up her longjons. Place her limp body in the open suitcase, take her body out to transfer fibers. Wrap her body in the white blanket from the dryer, apply ligatures and duct tape, take her to the wine cellar and place her on the floor. Return to the suitcase, place it flat against the wall under the window, and with your gloved hand reach in the window well and grab a handful of leaves and packing peanuts, go back to the body and sprinkle it around. With a shaking hand transcribe the pre written ransom note using Patsy's notepad and pen and throw the fake rough draft in the trash. Grab your bag and walk upstairs, exit the only unlocked door as described by Joan Woodward and leave no footprints. Maybe leave on a bicycle across the lawn because you saw Burke riding on the lawn earlier that day.
 
  • #26
I think she was strangled just before the note was written, an hour after she ate the pineapple.
 
  • #27
Here's some interesting information about this.

The incident with "Amy" occurred approximately 9 months after JB was murdered. Both the mother and "Amy" saw this person, and yet a composite sketch was never done. Why? As the investigation by police went on, the father of "Amy" became very uncomfortable about police interviewing friends and acquaintances of his daughter. According to Det. Linda Arndt's report, Amy's dad did not want the investigation to continue if it was going to reveal a sexual assault aspect. As a result he shut it down and told police to stop investigating. Later, he complained that BPD didn't do anything.

So he hired a PI instead. It was the PI who found the cigarettes butts not the police while they were investigating, and we do not have a timeline of when those were found, but we do know that it was sometime AFTER the police investigation. Weeks? Months? The PI also found that the mother knew the guy, and was consistently letting him in the house while her husband was out of town. There is no credible information that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the cigarette butts were related to the incident. And knowing that the mother knew the guy and was letting him in the house, there was no reason for him to be "stalking". He had free access.

The cigarette butts found near the Ramsey home were not on their property. The alleyway behind the Ramsey home was about 2 blocks in length, so shared by approximately 20 homes all of which had their garages in the back like the Ramseys was. This was also the area where the trash pick-ups occurred. The brand of cigarettes formerly known as Camel lights was a popular brand among smokers. An alley where the trash cans are kept would be a very common place to smoke....the husband whose wife makes him go outside to have a cigarette. My best friend to this day makes her husband smoke outside. He has a spot in their neighborhood where he consistently goes to smoke.

IMO opinion it's a bit of a reach to conclude IDI based on cigarette butts. If this guy was so clever to not leave any other traces of himself behind, one would think he'd know not to be so careless and leave cigarette butts too.
Where are your sources for these claims? Please can you add the links?
 

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