Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #10

[otto]

Please visit the paediatric ward of your local hospital, or local children's hospital or hospice to witness parents experiencing no less loss and heartache, with the same or more expenses, seemingly able to do so without requiring public crowd funding.

Please forgive my cynicism for not being overly concerned about someone's ability to pay for the legal expenses to settle an estate and collect their inheritance.

That is very true. Many parents with sick children will completely change their lives and work schedules to accommodate the needs of a child with long term health issues. I have met many parents in that situation. There's usually a temporary financial setback as life is re-organized, but it is sorted out over time.

In case of death due to violent crime (as in this case), the provincial and federal governments have many financial aid programs. Funding is provided for funeral/memorial costs, for expenses that are insurmountable due to work absence, and for emotional trauma. Victims of violent crime automatically receive a package from the gov't containing all the information for submitting a request for financial assistance and counselling.

We have heard that the adult victims own two homes and recently sold a home for almost three quarters of a million dollars. Having said that, I understand that the community wants to do something to help, and money is an easy way to do this.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

And maybe after your visit, decide if you as an individual or part of the community can contribute in any way to making their lives more comfortable while they are experiencing such tragedy.

Like many, I had zero financial aid after the death of either of my children, but it would never occur to me to resent or begrudge someone else financial aid during the darkest hours of their lives.

JMO, JMO

Extremely well said. If anyone thinks for one moment that anyone sees this as money so that people can "get their inheritance" .... I even know how to respectfully address that. Don't contribute.

 

[Krystine]

Extremely well said. If anyone thinks for one moment that anyone sees this as money so that people can "get their inheritance" .... I even know how to respectfully address that. Don't contribute.

I'm not even sure the issue of donations is any of our business.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

That is very true. Many parents with sick children will completely change their lives and work schedules to accommodate the needs of a child with long term health issues. I have met many parents in that situation. There's usually a temporary financial setback as life is re-organized, but it is sorted out over time.

In case of death due to violent crime (as in this case), the provincial and federal governments have many financial aid programs. Funding is provided for funeral/memorial costs, for expenses that are insurmountable due to work absence, and for emotional trauma. Victims of violent crime automatically receive a package from the gov't containing all the information for submitting a request for financial assistance and counselling.

We have heard that the adult victims own two homes and recently sold a home for almost three quarters of a million dollars. Having said that, I understand that the community wants to do something to help, and money is an easy way to do this.

Victims are eligible for wage loss, etc due to violent crime. Families of victims are not. They can apply for funeral expenses for the victims but families of victims are only eligible for counseling, etc. They can apply for restitution but that would assume that DG has money to pay restitution.

I feel that this is a discussion that we may all have to agree to disagree on because it's just going in circles.

 

[otto]

Thankfully, I don't have any inside knowledge of murder and murderers, their thought process and what they mean to achieve. Do they want to end their anxiety and their frustration by killing someone, thinking their discomfort will subside and they will be able to settle down after the act?
Do they want to 'win' somehow, and have the last word by seeing their enemy powerless?
I think I agree with sillybilly, the murderer wanted AL to pay in full for his perceived wrong doing, and for AL to be aware of who was in control of his life and death.

I think it's pretty straight forward. The suspect was still living with his parents at the age of 54, and he perceived that the person that took credit for the design changes on a patent was going to retire on the beach. That would be pure and simple anger. Given that the suspect appears to be shorter than Alvin, and lighter than Alvin's 200 pounds, it's quite likely that his only chance to overcome Alvin was to strike fast with fatal intent.

 

[appleeye]

I'm not even sure the issue of donations is any of our business.

When asking for public donations, it is the public's business. Of course, I can choose where to put my money and choose to put it into places like Noelle's gift...

 

[Coldpizza]

Time to move along from the donation discussion please.

Thank you

 

[Sillybilly]

Murder was the intent, not discussion or torture.

Sure murder was the intent, but none of us knows what specific, skewed mental factors could been involved in those final moments.

 

[otto]

Victims are eligible for wage loss, etc due to violent crime. Families of victims are not. They can apply for funeral expenses for the victims but families of victims are only eligible for counseling, etc. They can apply for restitution but that would assume that DG has money to pay restitution.

I feel that this is a discussion that we may all have to agree to disagree on because it's just going in circles.

My son was a victim of a violent crime. He, and his parents, were both eligible to submit requests for financial compensation through the victims of violent crime program. We didn't make any request because it was healthier for my son to put it behind him and move forward than to revisit the experience as we waded through the process. I think there are different possibilities when a child is involved.

 

[otto]

Sure murder was the intent, but none of us knows what specific, skewed mental factors could been involved in those final moments.

I would rather not know the gory details of what happened in the Liknes home on the night of the murder. I can only imagine that with three victims, no one had an escape route or a moment to overcome the attacker. Police have said that this was a premeditated murder, which suggests to me that the suspect went to the home with the intent to commit murder, that he had a weapon, a plan, and that he would not be deterred with conversation, thoughts of torture, or the presence of a small child. Given the timeline, it seems that in the span of about five hours he was able to murder three people, remove them from the scene (including a 200 pound 6 foot tall man), dispose of their bodies (perhaps a 1.5 hour round trip to the Airdrie acreage), return to the crime scene, clean up, and be on his way home. I don't think that leaves much time for torture.

 

[Tealgrove]

I apologize in advance when I ask this question because I'm sure somewhere it has been answered but I can't find it.

Do we know for a fact that the suspect came back and tried to clean up? I know it has been mentioned many times but I have been unable to find where this is fact.

Please point me in the right direction. Thanks.

 

[otto]

I apologize in advance when I ask this question because I'm sure somewhere it has been answered but I can't find it.

Do we know for a fact that the suspect came back and tried to clean up? I know it has been mentioned many times but I have been unable to find where this is fact.

Please point me in the right direction. Thanks.

What we know is that three people were removed from the crime scene. We know that the green truck was seen several times during the hours when the murders (abductions) took place. Police released a photo of the truck where the shadows suggest early morning (around 4AM) and there is nothing in the back of the truck. We know that three bodies and a driver would not fit in the cab of the truck. That suggests that the bodies had already been removed from the property when the photo was taken. That means a second trip. Additionally, it was reported that there appeared to be drag marks spanning 8 meters leading from the side door to the parking pad. Reporters on the scene suggested that the area had been hosed down. That implies a clean-up.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

With the ease of access of varying chemicals the suspect could have simply rendered the victims unconscious with a toxin or toxin cocktail prior to injury. If this was the case, AL would have realistically been the first victim to receive the toxin (via a soaked rag/cloth over passageways) and sadly would have not been able to struggle successfully but would have had a moment when his eyes likely met the suspects prior to being rendered unconscious. That is what I surmise gave the suspect satisfaction followed by the obvious physical injuries. Sorry to elaborate this thought.

 

[otto]

With the ease of access of varying chemicals the suspect could have simply rendered the victims unconscious with a toxin or toxin cocktail prior to injury. If this was the case, AL would have realistically been the first victim to receive the toxin (via a soaked rag/cloth over passageways) and sadly would have not been able to struggle successfully but would have had a moment when his eyes likely met the suspects prior to being rendered unconscious. That is what I surmise gave the suspect satisfaction followed by the obvious physical injuries. Sorry to elaborate this thought.

If the victims were simply knocked out with a soft kill, there would be no reason for the medical examiner to be on scene.

 

[otto]

The Drag Marks and Clean-up

"Drag marks could be seen near evidence tags on the walkway of a home where three people were reported missing Monday.

Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

 

[Deleted member 117120]

If the victims were simply knocked out with a soft kill, there would be no reason for the medical examiner to be on scene.

Agreed otto, but I was thinking that bodily injuries occurred after the victims were unconscious or near death. Maybe that is how LE and forensics were able to ascertain deceased due to dna evidence and type of dna evidence. I don't know the ins and outs of it but there are variances in dna pre and post death.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Did forensics bring in the sniff box thingies....sorry, the pieces of equipment that collects air samples to determine if there were toxins and so on present in the air? as in the Casey Anthony case.

 

[otto]

Agreed otto, but I was thinking that bodily injuries occurred after the victims were unconscious. Maybe that is how LE and forensics were able to ascertain deceased due to dna evidence and type of dna evidence. I don't know the ins and outs of it but there are variances in dna pre and post death.

The point of removing Alvin from the crime scene is a bit of a mystery for me. I kind of hope that he was lured out of the house to sit in the suspect's vehicle for a conversation and that he was attacked there, as that means he was removed from the home in one piece. Lifting 200 pounds of dead weight into the back of a pickup would most likely require some kind of aid ... like a dolly and a ramp. I don't know how much weight Garland can lift, so perhaps he simply dragged Alvin out of the house and lifted him into the back of the pickup truck.

Since bedding was collected from the Spyhill Landfill, I'm assuming that bedding was missing from the crime scene ... bedding that could have been used to remove/drag the victims to the truck, and cover them in the back of the truck.

 

[otto]

Did forensics bring in the sniff box thingies....sorry, the pieces of equipment that collects air samples to determine if there were toxins and so on present in the air? as in the Casey Anthony case.

That's an interesting thought. Which areas would have been tested?

 

[roseofsharon]

Time to move along from the donation discussion please.

Thank you

FTLOG! (not swearing here either, easy to figure out) ...
Personally speaking, the "thanks" button was just not enough! :goodpost: