Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #10

[PrincessButtercup]

With the ease of access of varying chemicals the suspect could have simply rendered the victims unconscious with a toxin or toxin cocktail prior to injury. If this was the case, AL would have realistically been the first victim to receive the toxin (via a soaked rag/cloth over passageways) and sadly would have not been able to struggle successfully but would have had a moment when his eyes likely met the suspects prior to being rendered unconscious. That is what I surmise gave the suspect satisfaction followed by the obvious physical injuries. Sorry to elaborate this thought.

I can't look for the link at the moment but the police stated that there was evidence of a violent struggle in the home .... this does not fit with that statement.

 

[kaley]

If the victims were simply knocked out with a soft kill, there would be no reason for the medical examiner to be on scene.

They were likely knocked out with a chemical and then stabbed. Knocking them out would put them to sleep making it easier to kill them. A medical examiner would still be needed. I also suspect there were traces of a chemical being used which they were looking for at the Garland property.

 

[otto]

I can't look for the link at the moment but the police stated that there was evidence of a violent struggle in the home .... this does not fit with that statement.

"The trio have not been seen since June 29 after what police say was a violent incident in the Liknes house. ... Police have said the home bore signs of a violent struggle and at least one person would have been in “medical distress” and taken forcibly from the house."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-obrien-amber-alert-and-missing-grandparents/

 

[winnnancy]

Agreed otto, but I was thinking that bodily injuries occurred after the victims were unconscious or near death. Maybe that is how LE and forensics were able to ascertain deceased due to dna evidence and type of dna evidence. I don't know the ins and outs of it but there are variances in dna pre and post death.

Will have to do some reading. Wonder if adrenalin is found?

 

[roseofsharon]

They were likely knocked out with a chemical and then stabbed. Knocking them out would put them to sleep making it easier to kill them. A medical examiner would still be needed. I also suspect there were traces of a chemical being used which they were looking for at the Garland property.

Respectfully disagree, as there was evidence of a violent struggle and lots of blood and people leaving their home, not voluntarily. Had DG knocked them out with a chemical first, he could have used smothering as the murder method and not make the mess he left behind. Just moo.

 

[kaley]

Respectfully disagree, as there was evidence of a violent struggle and lots of blood and people leaving their home, not voluntarily. Had DG knocked them out with a chemical first, he could have used smothering as the murder method and not make the mess he left behind. Just moo.

True. I didn't realize there was evidence that they left the house until now. Maybe I am just hoping they were sleeping because that would mean little Nathan didn't feel anything

 

[Deleted member 117120]

That's an interesting thought. Which areas would have been tested?

Otto, I am not schooled on the names of post death substances but wonder if there are those types of compounds the body produces after succumbing that could be tested within the air sample. I think your idea that AL was lured outside the home into a vehicle is very very plausible because it does two important things and probably more but I can think of two. First, it gets the door unlocked and second it gets AL into the vehicle. What I wonder though is how much of a struggle in the vehicle would have pursued in this scenario and how would the suspect handle that? But this would definitely make sense if LE originally said at least one person was in medical duress in the home. If the suspect dealt with AL in the vehicle and then proceeded to the house then a struggle may have ensued with KL and perhaps in protecting the dear child a struggle was evident. Because a small child has less blood then an adult and if both were injured it could have taken testing to determine it was two victims and not one victims blood. As for determining AL was deceased and in this scenario there would be evidence in the vehicle to confirm that. So I agree this is very plausible otto. Sadly
I think the point being that the dna in the home was plural but forensics could not determine that without testing.

 

[otto]

They were likely knocked out with a chemical and then stabbed. Knocking them out would put them to sleep making it easier to kill them. A medical examiner would still be needed. I also suspect there were traces of a chemical being used which they were looking for at the Garland property.

Garland attended the University of Alberta for just over two years. He was in the Faculty of Science. In his third year, he transferred into the science undergraduate program for medical students. In October of that year he was expelled for cheating.

"A Postmedia News story from the drugs trial noted that the meth cook, as drug makers are called, had studied science at the University of Alberta but was expelled after being caught cheating."

http://o.canada.com/news/national/b...w-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

He was caught cheating in his third year, but he was probably cheating the entire time he was at the university. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he cheated in high school as well.

He then had a meth lab. There are an awful lot of people that have meth labs that are not all that bright. Having a meth lab doesn't make Garland a chemistry mastermind, and cheating in a Bachelor of Science program doesn't make him a chemistry mastermind. I think that people are giving him an awful lot more credit than he deserves. Regarding appealing his employment benefits, I seem to recall that there was a technicality that was used to reverse the decision. That also doesn't make Garland a genius ... it tells me that he spent a lot of time tenaciously looking for any way to reverse the decision because he felt that even though he lied about who he was, he was cheated.

There was a violent struggle at the crime scene that left someone in medical distress. Handguns are banned, so this was most likely a violent knife murder where someone was mortally injured.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

otto how do we know handguns are banned? I had not read this before. Could suspect not obtain one by some means?

 

[otto]

Otto, I am not schooled on the names of post death substances but wonder if there are those types of compounds the body produces after succumbing that could be tested within the air sample. I think your idea that AL was lured outside the home into a vehicle is very very plausible because it does two important things and probably more but I can think of two. First, it gets the door unlocked and second it gets AL into the vehicle. What I wonder though is how much of a struggle in the vehicle would have pursued in this scenario and how would the suspect handle that? But this would definitely make sense if LE originally said at least one person was in medical duress in the home. If the suspect dealt with AL in the vehicle and then proceeded to the house then a struggle may have ensued with KL and perhaps in protecting the dear child a struggle was evident. Because a small child has less blood then an adult and if both were injured it could have taken testing to determine it was two victims and not one victims blood. As for determining AL was deceased and in this scenario there would be evidence in the vehicle to confirm that. So I agree this is very plausible otto. Sadly
I think the point being that the dna in the home was plural but forensics could not determine that without testing.

The only way that I can interpret the Amber Alert comment that "Nathan may be in the company of his grandfather" is that there was evidence available the day after the abductions/murders that the grandmother was in medical distress at the crime scene. Today, there is clear evidence that all three victims are deceased and both the Liknes home and the Airdrie acreage are crime scenes. I'm assuming that there was evidence in Garland's truck to support that conclusion.

 

[otto]

otto how do we know handguns are banned? I had not read this before. Could suspect not obtain one by some means?

"Restricted firearms include:
•handguns that are not prohibited;
•semi-automatic, centre-fire rifles and shotguns with a barrel shorter than 470 mm;
•rifles and shotguns that can be fired when their overall length has been reduced by folding, telescoping or other means to less than 660 mm; and
•firearms restricted by Criminal Code Regulations.

Prohibited firearms include:
•handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm or less and handguns that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition, except for a few specific ones used in International Shooting Union competitions;
•rifles and shotguns that have been altered by sawing or other means so that their barrel length is less than 457 mm or their overall length is less than 660 mm;
•full automatics;
•converted automatics, namely full automatics that have been altered so that they fire only one projectile when the trigger is squeezed; and
•firearms prohibited by Criminal Code Regulations."

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm

It's always possible to obtain an illegal handgun, but any gunshot would attract the attention of everyone simply because gunshots don't happen in a Canadian city except during criminal activities.

 

[deugirtni]

Thank you for your comments on my thoughts. I am thinking that in your hubby's case, he is hired and paid to build something according to specs he is given.. so I can understand him not receiving recognition, although I'm sure he is a VERY important to the inventors. But if your hubby discovered, and fixed, a flaw that the inventor had on his design, then wouldnt' you expect that he would get some credit? The way that I was reading the posts about this issue, is that AL tried unsuccessfully for years to make his own design work, but in the end it was an alteration/fix made by DG that made it work? Or am I mistaken on that? I can search for the post that led me to believe that.

Yes, the artist world is different, whereby I guess anyone who had anything to do with anything gets mentioned because otherwise they wouldn't get 'known' for their work? So in looking at your post and all of the people who get credit for parts they played in things, I don't think it is far fetched that DG would expect some recognition for his part in AL's invention.

Not that I am convinced (due to lack of any published evidence whatsoever) that he committed this crime, and I'm not sure on the timelines, whether the refusal to include him as one of the co-inventors was recent or years ago.

What does a corporation do when they have an artist design their wonderful new corporate logo/identity, and the designer wants his name posted.

If you use a pattern to build a clothing line, you are, in essence, making a "cover" of the design. Just like a singer may "cover" a song by Metallica. However, if the singer hasn't obtained permission to perform and sell copies of his cover, then he will end up in court and will have to pay a huge fine, Metallica's legal fees, and money owing to the band. If you wanted to build your clothing line, and wanted to avoid law suits, you would just go to the designer and negotiate a deal for use of the pattern.

It's pretty common for photos and artwork to be published with an acknowledgement of the photographer/artist either under the photograph, or in footnotes, or in a separate credit list.

In theatre/film/tv productions, everyone who worked on the project, or helped with the project, is named above or below the line as appropriate. Accountants, personal assistants, boom operators, drivers and so on are all listed. In some projects, say for a TV series, the person who had the original idea with be credited with the line "Concept by", the person who develops the idea into a script gets a writer's credit, the person who punches up the script gets credit for "additional material".
On a program, the artist who designed the cover, even though paid for this service, gets credited within the body of the program.
In the section dealing with costumes, functions are spelled out. The designer may have an assistant, the cutter and dyer and seamstress may also be credited, as is the wigmaster, and the wardrobe mistress. All work under costumes, all are credited, yet it is clear who had the concept for the original designs, who made some changes, who built the costumes, and who maintains the costumes.

A friend's husband is hired by inventors to build their prototypes, sometimes to scale, so they can test their ideas for weaknesses. He never gets credit for his crucial work in detecting flaws and hazards. But he gets very good money for his work in compensation.

DG did not have the original idea and, IIRC, the device didn't work. But perhaps DG could not separate himself from his work, and needed to retain ownership of his "improvements". DG may have have serious boundary issues and just seen AL as an extension of his own persona. I wonder if the "cheating" that got DG thrown out of univerity was plagairism.

 

[Touchtherapy]

Garland attended the University of Alberta for just over two years. He was in the Faculty of Science. In his third year, he transferred into the science undergraduate program for medical students. In October of that year he was expelled for cheating.

"A Postmedia News story from the drugs trial noted that the meth cook, as drug makers are called, had studied science at the University of Alberta but was expelled after being caught cheating."

http://o.canada.com/news/national/b...w-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

He was caught cheating in his third year, but he was probably cheating the entire time he was at the university. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he cheated in high school as well.

He then had a meth lab. There are an awful lot of people that have meth labs that are not all that bright. Having a meth lab doesn't make Garland a chemistry mastermind, and cheating in a Bachelor of Science program doesn't make him a chemistry mastermind. I think that people are giving him an awful lot more credit than he deserves. Regarding appealing his employment benefits, I seem to recall that there was a technicality that was used to reverse the decision. That also doesn't make Garland a genius ... it tells me that he spent a lot of time tenaciously looking for any way to reverse the decision because he felt that even though he lied about who he was, he was cheated.

There was a violent struggle at the crime scene that left someone in medical distress. Handguns are banned, so this was most likely a violent knife murder where someone was mortally injured.

Hand guns are restricted not banned. Meaning you can own them, they need to be registered and there are restrictions on type you can own, transport and where and when you may transpory such a weapon. Regardless I agree, a gun was not used in this crime. Too loud too traceable.

 

[garbagetweet]

Today, there is clear evidence that all three victims are deceased and both the Liknes home and the Airdrie acreage are crime scenes.

I believe the correct statement should be that both homes were crime scenes. The police are done with their investigations at both properties now so they are no longer crime scenes.

 

[otto]

Thank you for your comments on my thoughts. I am thinking that in your hubby's case, he is hired and paid to build something according to specs he is given.. so I can understand him not receiving recognition, although I'm sure he is a VERY important to the inventors. But if your hubby discovered, and fixed, a flaw that the inventor had on his design, then wouldnt' you expect that he would get some credit? The way that I was reading the posts about this issue, is that AL tried unsuccessfully for years to make his own design work, but in the end it was an alteration/fix made by DG that made it work? Or am I mistaken on that? I can search for the post that led me to believe that.

Yes, the artist world is different, whereby I guess anyone who had anything to do with anything gets mentioned because otherwise they wouldn't get 'known' for their work? So in looking at your post and all of the people who get credit for parts they played in things, I don't think it is far fetched that DG would expect some recognition for his part in AL's invention.

Not that I am convinced (due to lack of any published evidence whatsoever) that he committed this crime, and I'm not sure on the timelines, whether the refusal to include him as one of the co-inventors was recent or years ago.

What does a corporation do when they have an artist design their wonderful new corporate logo/identity, and the designer wants his name posted.

"Verification" in the following clause, relates to prototyping. If the family acknowledges that Garland altered a patent design, that is enough for me to believe that he was a co-inventor. That he was not named on the patent is not petty, and would probably not be considered "petty" by the patent office. It would, however, be on Garland to prove that the alterations were his ideas, so he would need drawings, notes, dates and proof.

"Accordingly, an individual who contributes to the inventive concept may be a co-inventor without being the prime originator. However, if a person’s ingenuity is directed to verification rather than the original inventive concept, they are not considered co-inventors."

http://patent-advice.ca/who-is-an-inventor-in-canadian-patent-law/

 

[winnnancy]

Hand guns are restricted not banned. Meaning you can own them, they need to be registered and there are restrictions on type you can own, transport and where and when you may transpory such a weapon. Regardless I agree, a gun was not used in this crime. Too loud too traceable.

Gun registry was a joke. I'm sure the statistics on crime committed by the " knife and gun clubs" would amaze you. There are many collectors possessing all types of firearms.
A silencer is likely easy to procure.
That being said, a gun wouldn't likely leave behind evidence of a struggle.

 

[Sillybilly]

FTLOG! (not swearing here either, easy to figure out) ...
Personally speaking, the "thanks" button was just not enough! :goodpost:

ROS, for a moment there I thought it was an acronym for a foot long hotdog :biggrin:

 

[ella20]

Additionally, I don't remember where it was mentioned but it has been, there is taxes owing on the latest company bankruptcy.
Debt apparently does not die with death. The estate may be liable to pay. We don't know if AL was incorporated.

I'm willing to bet he was incorporated - both he and his wife have gone through bankruptcy before, and they would most likely incorporate everything they did from that point on - I would. Not all corporate debts can be placed on the directors, but certainly where taxes are concerned they can be. That being said, however, it wouldn't surprise me that they still had two residences. After all, AL wasn't always the sole person on the board of directors for the companies in which he held ownership, so the debt would have been distributed among other people as well. And he had worked at enough different places over the years that, if not wealthy, it is entirely possible that he built up enough assets (despite the corporate bankruptcies) to still retire comfortably. People have to remember that a company bankruptcy is not the same as a personal one. And even personal bankruptcy isn't designed to devastate people - but rather, to provide some recompense for the creditors while imposing a lifestyle that requires the debtor to change their habits. Allowance is made to hold a few assets to this purpose, and people can rebuild their net worth over time.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

If the suspect did lure AL into the vehicle at a late time in the evening after JO left, common sense tells me that there had to have been previous and more recent communications between the two of them otherwise it would no make sense to AL for DG to be there at that time and place and to even go outside to discuss "matters". If I put myself in AL shoes and if I had not had prior communications for some length in time with DG, I would be rather hesitant to go outside and speak with him at that time but if lets says DG had been in communication with AL recently and had created a false demeanor or ruse to get AL off guard by either offering an olive branch before they departed on their ways from Edmonton or had some other business venture ruse per say to get AL comfortable. There imo must have been prior correspondence or telephone communication between them and hopefully LE has a trail on suspect computer or even AL computer and/or phone.

 

[julydarling]

What we know is that three people were removed from the crime scene. We know that the green truck was seen several times during the hours when the murders (abductions) took place. Police released a photo of the truck where the shadows suggest early morning (around 4AM) and there is nothing in the back of the truck. We know that three bodies and a driver would not fit in the cab of the truck. That suggests that the bodies had already been removed from the property when the photo was taken. That means a second trip. Additionally, it was reported that there appeared to be drag marks spanning 8 meters leading from the side door to the parking pad. Reporters on the scene suggested that the area had been hosed down. That implies a clean-up.

Sorry - just thinking out loud. So the truck was seen several times during the times of the murders. My best guess, based on the time JO left, sunset and sunrise is that 11-5am is the time frame we are looking at.
A direct trip from the Liknes house to the north side of airdrie would be about 45 mins - 1 hr. So my best guesstimate is that he could have at MOST done 2 trips, when you consider all the other "activities" he supposedly did while there.
So as someone said, not all the victims would fit in the truck, so either the bodies were disguised (put in bags etc) or possibly somewhere closer to the Liknes home than the acreage.