Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

[news.talk]

With all due respect...how do we know for a FACT that there was [B]"a house full and farm full of physical forensic evidence"[/B] We only know what we are being told.

As for logic...trying to make logic out of something illogical is pretty tough to do. And I'm of the opinion that many great detectives also rely hugely on their intuition and "gut feelings" on cases, so I don't see any reason that we can't share some of our "gut feelings" or intuitive insights while discussing this in this Forum.

Reporters may have experience that we don't have on crime scenes but many (not pointing fingers at any one in particular) do not accurately report what is actually going on. I have read several articles in this case on the very same subject and have read differing descriptions of the event...so....I wouldn't necessarily rely on any reporters judgement (no offense newtalk) that wasn't LE or Government appointed. Even then, we've got Crown Forensic Psychiatrists that report untruths and assumptions in court.

Because this case has so many extenuating circumstances on both sides that do cause one to raise their eyebrows and go "hmmm"...I would probably want some cold hard evidence...like bodies, or partial remains at the very least of the deceased...to prove that they are not still alive...because there is good cause to believe, IMO, that a voluntary disappearance here is entirely possible.

No offense taken. I agree that many reporters have reported inaccurate information. I base my opinion on living with a man that ran a major crimes division and watching him put together cases in front of me for 20 years. They do NOT make up evidence and prosecutors DON'T bring homicide charges unless they have the evidence to support the charges. Their reputation and jobs depend on proving their case.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

It is possible that to protect the integrity of the case, LE has not released that information yet.

They have done everything they can already to protect the integrity of the case...they have released basically ZERO information other than presented a perp. How is not showing where NO was presumably the victim of a homicide detrimental to the case? I don't understand what integrity they're protecting by doing that?

I doubt that its possible that the police are not releasing that information as they've created a contradiction by not doing so. They've charged DG with 3 murders, but only place mark 2. If it was a clerical error, trust me, that would've been fixed up long before now, it wouldn't still be showing that way....its been 3 weeks now.

 

[Sillybilly]

Death certificates are issued by a pathologist after he/she has been able to conduct an autopsy on a body.

ETA: I believe they can issue something called a presumptive DC.

 

[otto]

No, they're not in Disneyland. They are probably in Panama. The Investigators can tell us whatever the heck they want to tell us in order to solve this case...has anyone seen any evidence that the police are actually telling the public the truth? I may have missed something because I don't know of any?

The murder victims are not in Panama, they are probably in a field somewhere within 20 miles of the Airdrie acreage.

The case will not be tried in the media. The media is restricted in what they can say after an arrest. The evidence will be presented in court during trial.

 

[news.talk]

I was looking for, and I'm not sure if it would be public record...but I was looking to see if any death certificates have been issued on the 3 victims...I haven't found anything...if anyone else has could you please share that information? As well, there are only 2 victims reported at the Liknes home...what happened to NO then?

To be honest, I was incredibly shocked that they so very quickly announced, and so definitely announced, "there were no other suspects"...from "we have high hopes to finding them alive" on Friday to BOOM! "We have no other suspects" on Sunday. Wow! That's a pretty fast turnaround. Even if they have collected loads of forensic evidence proving that DG did this...there is NO WAY that they have sifted through everything to the nth degree in order to at the very least disqualify the possibility of an accomplice in a two week period! Its going to take 30 days to get the disclosure documents to the Defence, IMO, it would take them months and months to make absolute certain that DG didn't have someone working with him.

My guess is they found overwhelming evidence that the suspect acted alone.

There were over 200 LE personnel initially working this case from two LE agencies. They worked overtime and by all reports, have been diligent and thorough. They take these cases VERY personally and do not want to risk that a child murderer could walk free. They're no doubt leaving no stone unturned to secure a conviction and not leave room for reasonable doubt.

 

[Sillybilly]

No, they're not in Disneyland. They are probably in Panama. The Investigators can tell us whatever the heck they want to tell us in order to solve this case...has anyone seen any evidence that the police are actually telling the public the truth? I may have missed something because I don't know of any?

Could you please provide a link to a precedent somewhere/anywhere wherein LE, coroners, etc have colluded on a disinformation campaign of such magnitude? How do you propose such huge, bare-faced lies to the public are instrumental in helping the investigators solve this case?

The reason we don't have evidence other than what we are told is, this is an ongoing police investigation and it is necessary to protect the integrity of the investigation to NOT disclose all that they have to the public. Protecting an investigation is SOP in any case we've ever sleuthed on.

 

[news.talk]

They have done everything they can already to protect the integrity of the case...they have released basically ZERO information other than presented a perp. How is not showing where NO was presumably the victim of a homicide detrimental to the case? I don't understand what integrity they're protecting by doing that?

I doubt that its possible that the police are not releasing that information as they've created a contradiction by not doing so. They've charged DG with 3 murders, but only place mark 2. If it was a clerical error, trust me, that would've been fixed up long before now, it wouldn't still be showing that way....its been 3 weeks now.

What make you think it is NO that the crime map has omitted? It doesn't list names and three homicides took place.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Death certificates are issued by a pathologist after he/she has been able to conduct an autopsy on a body.

ETA: I believe they can issue something called a presumptive DC.

Actually, in Alberta there are 2 certificates of death. One is the Medical Certificate of Death which is issued by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner and the second is the Certificate of Death which is issued by by Vital Statistics and is a extract from the Registration of Death filed in Edmonton Alberta (I've got 2 sitting in front of me right now.) You can request the Vital Statistics one right away. The second took 6 months after my husband died once the medical examiner's report was concluded.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

What make you think it is NO that the crime map has omitted? It doesn't list names and three homicides took place.

And if they haf any reason to believe that NO was killed somewhere other than the initial crime scene, say at the acreage, it wouldn't be on the map as Airdrie is it's own city and the RCMP does not have a crime map.

 

[Cherchri]

Death records are protected under privacy laws for (I believe,) 50 years after death.

Indeed, it may be helpful to sleuthers to read the FOIP act and specifically as it pertains to ongoing investigations.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The medical examiner has declared that the three missing persons are deceased. If that was incorrect, how would that false statement "flush out" new suspects? Police have stated that they are not looking for any other suspects. Why shouldn't we believe them? If there is another person that has a reason to murder more people in the Liknes/Obrien families, wouldn't it be extremely irresponsible of police to state that there are no other suspects?

Perhaps they're trying to "flush" someone else out. It sure sounded like they wanted to"wrap this up" pretty darn quick...wonder why? I find it really interesting that they've already determined that there are no other suspects when there's no way they've had enough time to do all forensic testing, etc in the 2 week period it took them to identify a POI, then charge the accused. There's a whole lot of factors that point to this crime being quite a difficult thing to do on one's own...you would think they would be looking for an accomplice...unless DG took a bunch of selfies while he was committing the crime. Possible I imagine.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

And if they haf any reason to believe that NO was killed somewhere other than the initial crime scene, say at the acreage, it wouldn't be on the map as Airdrie is it's own city and the RCMP does not have a crime map.

Because I believe it lists areas or addresses? Sorry, I can't off the top of my head remember what info was there. Interesting, I was not aware that the RCMP did not have a map...but then I was actually surprised the CPS did, so IDK.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Actually, in Alberta there are 2 certificates of death. One is the Medical Certificate of Death which is issued by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner and the second is the Certificate of Death which is issued by by Vital Statistics and is a extract from the Registration of Death filed in Edmonton Alberta (I've got 2 sitting in front of me right now.) You can request the Vital Statistics one right away. The second took 6 months after my husband died once the medical examiner's report was concluded.

I'm sorry for your loss PrincessButtercup Thanks for the information.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

What make you think it is NO that the crime map has omitted? It doesn't list names and three homicides took place.

I think I'm of that opinion because I believe the Amber Alert was still active at the time I looked at the map. Sorry, I can't remember news.talk. I got the info from somewhere [modsnip]

 

[goodasgold]

The medical examiner has declared that the three missing persons are deceased. If that was incorrect, how would that false statement "flush out" new suspects? Police have stated that they are not looking for any other suspects. Why shouldn't we believe them? If there is another person that has a reason to murder more people in the Liknes/Obrien families, wouldn't it be extremely irresponsible of police to state that there are no other suspects?

The police also stated that DG was only a POI in the case whenever a reporter would call him a suspect up until the moment they arrested him. So when they were investigating their suspect (because he was suspected for the murders) for those two weeks, even two days before the arrest, they told the public he was only a POI in this case. So why would they say now if there was another suspect until they find the person and arrest them? I do not think the LE would say they are looking for someone else because then if there is someone else they would run. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Could you please provide a link to a precedent somewhere/anywhere wherein LE, coroners, etc have colluded on a disinformation campaign of such magnitude? How do you propose such huge, bare-faced lies to the public are instrumental in helping the investigators solve this case?

The reason we don't have evidence other than what we are told is, this is an ongoing police investigation and it is necessary to protect the integrity of the investigation to NOT disclose all that they have to the public. Protecting an investigation is SOP in any case we've ever sleuthed on.

Hmmm...actually no I can't...I'm sure there isn't any public precedent that would be available for me to provide that information to you as that could compromise the integrity of the investigation as well. It could also be contained within the bundle of evidence that is already being kept quiet. It's really just the other side of the same fence.

How do I propose it would be instrumental in helping the investigators solve the case? Pretty much the same way that James Darwin came out of the ocean when they declared him deceased, after his insurance money had been paid out. When the heat is off and the LE appear to be looking in another direction, people that may be involved could get careless and sloppy....that's usually how people are caught!

 

[Krystine]

What make you think it is NO that the crime map has omitted? It doesn't list names and three homicides took place.

I could be wrong, but isn't a crime map a kind of public service LE provides to the public, like a community outreach type of service, showing potential newcomers or home buyers which parts of the city might be rougher areas than others to live in? I highly doubt that it's an initiative of major crime detectives, it's more of an administrative duty.
Realtors consult these crime maps to show newcomers where the safest place to buy might be.
I wouldn't put a lot of energy on the number of homicides shown for that location. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[goodasgold]

I think I'm of that opinion because I believe the Amber Alert was still active at the time I looked at the map. Sorry, I can't remember news.talk. I got the info from somewhere, maybe intuition?

I assume NO is the one not marked because the Amber Alert was on until the very last moment of when they arrested DG for the murders. The LE said they had to keep it a missing persons case until there was no way for even one of these three to be alive. Since the Amber Alert remained on it was NO, i would think, that they believed could be alive. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

No offense taken. I agree that many reporters have reported inaccurate information. I base my opinion on living with a man that ran a major crimes division and watching him put together cases in front of me for 20 years. They do NOT make up evidence and prosecutors DON'T bring homicide charges unless they have the evidence to support the charges. Their reputation and jobs depend on proving their case.

Thank you for that information. It must have been very interesting too have had that opportunity as you were growing up. I know that it took its toll on the person you speak of but its a darn admirable and honorable career.

I'm confused again....are their reputations and jobs dependant on proving their case or solving the crime? That could very well be 2 different things.

 

[otto]

I never said LE is wrong or fooled by three homicides. If they indeed are not bluffing on the murder charges, then there was a death there but maybe not all 3. I believe there is a chance NO is alive. The crime map even states 2 homicides. I do not think there is evidence of NO being murdered in that house. JMO

Police have laid two first degree murder charges and one second degree murder charge (Nathan). The medical examiner had found sufficient evidence to declare all three victims as deceased. All three have been murdered. There is no reason to doubt the chief of police.