Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[otto]

Regarding the long process of recovering from the loss of a loved one due to a violent incident, hopefully the family is able to tap into existing resources.

This is the second mass murder in Calgary in a three months period. In the first mass murder, five unrelated families each lost a loved one, and countless other students were traumatized by the events of that night. In this second mass murder, two families lost three loved ones. Given that this is the second mass murder in such a short timespan, there must be qualified professionals in place with recent experience dealing with exactly these circumstances. Hopefully these professionals are able to assist the family with their loss such that they are able to move forward in their lives.

Another Calgary mass murder was in 2008, when Josh Lall, an aspiring architect, murdered a tenant, his two young daughters, his wife, and then he committed suicide. An infant daughter survived. It appears that this murder was due to a breakdown where he couldn't cope with his work, study, and family responsibilities.

 

[deugirtni]

Okay, got it now, it's just hard for me to follow sometimes if I can't stay tuned all the time and have to leave and then catch up some time later, if there is no reference in the post to what one is responding to, since generally I like to start back where I left off and not re-read.. if you know what I mean (this place is very time consuming AND addictive!!!!!)

I think if you follow the posts you will have less difficulty in keeping up. Please see the post immediately prior to mine and those I posted yesterday in this regard. I was at the courthouse and posted my observations.

Sorry, I'm having difficulty in keeping up..... what are you talking about??

I have to agree on the beseeching air.... I mentioned the pair were talking to Nancy Hixt and another reporter yesterday. They actively sought her out. The pair were themselves very downtrodden/dishevelled and needy looking. I observed that his clothing did not fit, his eyes were rheumy, his fingernails dirty. I don't mean to be cruel, just stating what I observed and stating because the impact of my observation set my radar a little on edge. I did not know at the time who they were. It all "felt" a little off is what I am saying.

I agree that the timing seems a bit distasteful; I wonder why we feel that way about it? Many trust funds are set up the same day, or the next that a terrible situation/occurrence/accident, etc happens, certainly within the week. I'm just generally thinking about situations over the years so no links available. I've asked myself why this one bothers me so much and why I find it, IMO, almost embarrassing that there's so much talk on the family's behalf of these trust funds. I've never felt upset about Trust Funds being set up to help the families of crimes out...not at all. IMO, I feel that Cherri Hodgins information she provided yesterday was more of an appeal than the relaying of information regarding the new Trust Funds. There's usually one, maybe two for most cases...not 3-5. I'm very surprised that I'm feeling that way now. I know better than to judge a book by its cover, but IMO if you can almost immediately think to offer a $ 100,000 reward to find the missing threesome, then there must be some wherewithal to survive financially with the help of the many federally, provincially and municipally funded programs we have, as well as whatever employers may offer as support. This is not to begrudge the Liknes & O'Brien families the support and generosity of the kind-hearted public, by no means, I just feel a sense of urgency relayed about the family regarding requiring money. It gives one the feeling that the families are in dire straits, which may or may not be true, but the beseeching air that CH presented yesterday kind of turned me off a bit. As OutofTheDarkness mentioned yesterday in a previous post, many people have had traumatic events in their lives that they have had to deal with too. JMO

 

[otto]

I find it interesting to compare how the community responded to each of the two recent mass murders. In the first mass murder, the suspect was quickly apprehended and no one questioned whether the correct person was arrested. The accused was known socially to the victims. The murders are unmotivated, random, and seem to be a result of mental illness. The victims were not missing, so funerals were held, the community held vigils, and on Sept 4, there will be a concert and art show. "All money raised from ticket sale will be distributed among the five scholarships or trust funds established for Joshua Hunter, Zackariah Rathwell, Lawrence Hong, Jordan Segura, and Kaiti Perras." Friends of the victims are the organizers of this event.

In the second mass murder, the suspect was apprehended two weeks after the murders, and some doubt that he is the right suspect. The accused is related to the victims. The victims are still missing, a vigil has been held, but no memorials are planned. The murders do not seem random, and do not appear to be a result of mental illness. Instead, these murders appear to be a result of a grudge, perhaps based on financial/business dealings.

I think that although a family murder (Liknes/Obrien) seems less of a threat to the community than a random murder (five students), it was probably the two week delay in an arrest that resulted in a different response from the community.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I find it interesting to compare how the community responded to each of the two recent mass murders. In the first mass murder, the suspect was quickly apprehended and no one questioned whether the correct person was arrested. The accused was known socially to the victims. The murders are unmotivated, random, and seem to be a result of mental illness. The victims were not missing, so funerals were held, the community held vigils, and on Sept 4, there will be a concert and art show. "All money raised from ticket sale will be distributed among the five scholarships or trust funds established for Joshua Hunter, Zackariah Rathwell, Lawrence Hong, Jordan Segura, and Kaiti Perras." Friends of the victims are the organizers of this event.

In the second mass murder, the suspect was apprehended two weeks after the murders, and some doubt that he is the right suspect. The accused is related to the victims. The victims are still missing, a vigil has been held, but no memorials are planned. The murders do not seem random, and do not appear to be a result of mental illness. Instead, these murders appear to be a result of a grudge, perhaps based on financial/business dealings.

I think that although a family murder (Liknes/Obrien) seems less of a threat to the community than a random murder (five students), it was probably the two week delay in an arrest that resulted in a different response from the community.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

The fact there were witnesses, victims found, and it was college age kids at a party all contributed to the open and shut nature of the coverage, and public response.

The Liknes/O'Brien case has a small child and grandparents involved, and started as a missing persons case. The mystery kept people involved, and the ages and family ties of the victims made it more relatable.

Just look at the different responses here between sympathies for the O's mortgage payments and legal fees, as opposed to children's hospices when it's debated. Selective sympathies are everywhere.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Cherchri, was wondering if you know besides JO and RO and CH and her spouse, was there any other family members of the O and L's in attendance on the Aug 14th Court date and appearance?

 

[Cherchri]

Okay, got it now, it's just hard for me to follow sometimes if I can't stay tuned all the time and have to leave and then catch up some time later, if there is no reference in the post to what one is responding to, since generally I like to start back where I left off and not re-read.. if you know what I mean (this place is very time consuming AND addictive!!!!!)

My apologies. I didn't quote because we had been warned to get off the topic and the quote contained specific reference to a matter we had just been warned about. I wanted to convey just my thoughts concerning the couple

 

[Cherchri]

Cherchri, was wondering if you know besides JO and RO and CH and her spouse, was there any other family members of the O and L's in attendance on the Aug 14th Court date and appearance?

You know I didn't see RO or JO in the actual courtroom but have read reports that RO was there. I did see them entering the building and passing through security. Shane Parker came and called AL away so he could tell him "the way forward" and I imagine JO and RO joined that discussion. I did not see anyone else that I recognized as a family member. Unbelievably, the duration of the proceedings was less than 5 minutes. I sat right up front so someone could have entered the room and sat behind me without me noticing. Most in the room were MSM.

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...se-douglas-garland-appears-in-court-1.2736193
Posted August 14, 2014

Transcript of CBC Calgary news report regarding the appearance of Douglas Garland in court on August 14, 2014.
This is not an official draft, and is not connected to any of the participants.
This is a rough draft, and all errors are my own.

Nathan O'Brien murder case: Douglas Garland appears in court.

News Anchor = Rosa Marchitelli = RM Reporter = Meghan Grant = MG Family Friend = Cherri Hodgins = CH Defence Lawyer = Kim Ross = KR Crown Attorney = Shane Parker = SP

RM: The man accused of murdering a five year old boy and his grandparents appeared briefly in court today. Douglas Garland faces charges in connection with the deaths of Alvin and Kathy Liknes and their grandson, Nathan O'Brien. And just outside that courtroom, a plea for help for the victims' families. MeghaParker Grant reports.

MG: For six weeks now, close friends have tried to help the Liknes and O'Brien families through their grief, one day at a time.

CH: This young family is absolutely shattered, and they need all of our support.

MG: What's needed now is financial support according to Kathy Liknes's best friend.

CH: And the family is in pieces. Nobody is working. Nobody can get back to normalicy [sic], whatever normalicy [sic] means to us at this point.

MG: Hodgins and her husband set up a trust account at CIBC banks across the country under the name "The O'Brien Fund". The pair were at court for Douglas Garland's brief appearance today. Garland's lawyer is still waiting for the prosecution to hand over the substantial amount of evidence police have gathered in the case.

KR: He's anxious to see the disclosure also, so, hopefully, once we get that next week, we can start moving this forward.

MG: The bodies have not yet been found, and police remain tight-lipped about the evidence they have against Garland. But, the prosecution says the investigation is ongoing.

SP: Police are continuing their searches, and we're encouraged by the lab results that we're getting back, but no specifics as of right now.

MG: Parker says the prosecution will meet with the victims' families at the end of the month to keep them up to date on the court process.

SP: It's critical, just from a human standpoint, making sure they understand what's happening. It's a confusing time on so many levels for them. And, if we can help them, explain the court process, then that's helpful.

MG: A preliminary hearing is likely six to eight months away, and would last several weeks according to Parker. Garland is back in court September 17th. Meghan Grant, CBC News, Calgary.

 

[wendiesan]

In Alberta, there is a Victims of Crime protocol which has useful information regarding who are considered direct and indirect victims of crimes, what their rights are, what they can expect from the Criminal Justice system.

If a person died because of the crime, the immediate family members of the person who died are considered to be direct victims of the crime. Immediate family members include parents, children, spouse or common-law partner, or in some cases, brothers or sisters.

Sometimes other people besides the direct victim are affected by a crime. For example, someone who witnessed the crime, or someone who has a relationship with the direct victim of crime could also be affected by the crime. These are called indirect victims of crime.
Except in cases where the victim died because of the crime, people in the criminal justice system are not expected to provide services in the Victims of Crime Protocol to indirect victims. However, in some cases, a person in the criminal justice system may choose to provide services to an indirect victim of crime.

http://www.protectiveservices.ualbe...mWitnessAssistance/VictimsofCrimeProtocol.pdf

Advice to victims and witnesses is a major part of this book, for instance, keeping a record of how the crime is affecting you, how to write a victim impact statement, availability of victim support services. Reminders that the Office of the Crown Prosecutor represents the state and not the victim or the victim's family, the victims should ask for notification, information, restitution, etc. (Another reason that direct victims and indirect victims may want and/or need to hire their own legal representation. IMO)

Court procedures are explained in some detail, so it's a good introduction to Canadian law and how it is likely to be applied in the coming months in this case.

 

[wendiesan]

The Calgary Courts Centre is unique for it houses both provincial and federal courts. For those interested in the architecture and aesthetics ("architecture of security") of the Calgary Courts Centre, as well as the practical aspects of running the building, this site may be of interest.

http://kasian.com/microsites/ccc/readmore.html

Courthouses are frequented by first-time visitors. As such, providing visitors a layout which is easy to navigate is a crucial consideration. This fact provided inspiration for the overall layout of the Calgary Courts Centre. The central atrium provides visitors a home base as they first enter the complex. Extensive use of windows, throughout the atrium and towers, allows the public to visually orient themselves. The floorplan provides another wayfinding tool, with many small, easily navigable floors. This floorplan is different than many traditional courthouses, which are often large, sprawling buildings with a large number of rooms opening off long maze-like hallways.

The atrium serves as a literal, and figurative, heart of the complex. Centrally located, it welcomes new visitors and provides a familiar aid to wayfinding as they move through the complex. It provides facilities, including a restaurant, that are quickly accessible from anywhere in the courthouse. As well, the open, airy design promotes a sense of calm, a comfort to those who are visiting the courtroom under less than ideal circumstances.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Not sure if these were posted already but additional businesses for AL:
According to this pdf which states owners AL and FL have operated the Castle Woodland Lumber & Building Supplies for over 25 years in Evansburg, Alberta
http://www.castle.ca/downloads/PR_Jan14_2014-New_Member_Announcement.pdf
Magazine article about the Woodland Lumber Store naming AL and FL as owners
http://www.hirmagazine.com/home_improvement_news.php?date=2014-01-15
and a second business for AL in Evansburg, Alta
Bradley Wood Productions in Evansburg, Alberta
http://www.builder24.org/company-bradley-wood-productions-in-evansburg-10289
http://stalbert.yalwa.ca/ID_107443907/Bradley-Wood-Productions-reno-rd.html

 

[wendiesan]

More information about the Calgary Courts Centre and typical floor layout. Although the centre has separate rooms for defence and for prosecution witnesses, I have not found information yet about a room which would allow the family to watch proceedings from a separate room.

http://www.sabmagazine.com/blog/2009/03/13/calgary-court-centre/

View attachment 57016

 

[Cherchri]

More information about the Calgary Courts Centre and typical floor layout. Although the centre has separate rooms for defence and for prosecution witnesses, I have not found information yet about a room which would allow the family to watch proceedings from a separate room.

http://www.sabmagazine.com/blog/2009/03/13/calgary-court-centre/

View attachment 57016

I haven't found anything specific to Calgary but I did come across this link. At Pickton's trial members of victims' families were accommodated in a separate room.
http://missingwomen.blogspot.ca/2006_11_01_archive.html
"A separate room for members of the victims' families has been established, as well as a separate room for the media who are not in the courtrooms."

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I find it interesting to compare how the community responded to each of the two recent mass murders. In the first mass murder, the suspect was quickly apprehended and no one questioned whether the correct person was arrested. The accused was known socially to the victims. The murders are unmotivated, random, and seem to be a result of mental illness. The victims were not missing, so funerals were held, the community held vigils, and on Sept 4, there will be a concert and art show. "All money raised from ticket sale will be distributed among the five scholarships or trust funds established for Joshua Hunter, Zackariah Rathwell, Lawrence Hong, Jordan Segura, and Kaiti Perras." Friends of the victims are the organizers of this event.

In the second mass murder, the suspect was apprehended two weeks after the murders, and some doubt that he is the right suspect. The accused is related to the victims. The victims are still missing, a vigil has been held, but no memorials are planned. The murders do not seem random, and do not appear to be a result of mental illness. Instead, these murders appear to be a result of a grudge, perhaps based on financial/business dealings.

I think that although a family murder (Liknes/Obrien) seems less of a threat to the community than a random murder (five students), it was probably the two week delay in an arrest that resulted in a different response from the community.

There's about 3 three key things that differentiate these IMO:

1. Amber Alert=Abduction: in most people's mind. So right from the get-go, there was hope it was kidnapping and no deaths occurred. I think public perception immediately assumed the grand folks abducted their grandchild and were possibly confused by what was happening. Confusion.

2. A Kijiji related crime/estate sale: this threw people off from the get-go also, the public associated a robbery/kidnapping gone wrong, again no one immediate thought death occurred. Robbers don't murder and kidnap do they? Again, confusion from the public.

3. Victim's background (unfortunately): after MSM publicized bankruptcies/companies where the victim's character is perhaps questionable, this naturally allows the public to think two people ran away from their financial problems and feel like this is an onion to peel where no one *really* knows the truth. I've read quite a few comments under MSM articles, and a lot of random commenters think AL and KL bailed for Mexico which is easy to think if people aren't fully following every detail in the news stories and are only hearing snippets. More confusion.

JMO

 

[otto]

There's about 3 three key things that differentiate these IMO:

1. Amber Alert=Abduction: in most people's mind. So right from the get-go, there was hope it was kidnapping and no deaths occurred. I think public perception immediately assumed the grand folks abducted their grandchild and were possibly confused by what was happening. Confusion.

2. A Kijiji related crime/estate sale: this threw people off from the get-go also, the public associated a robbery/kidnapping gone wrong, again no one immediate thought death occurred. Robbers don't murder and kidnap do they? Again, confusion from the public.

3. Victim's background (unfortunately): after MSM publicized bankruptcies/companies where the victim's character is perhaps questionable, this naturally allows the public to think two people ran away from their financial problems and feel like this is an onion to peel where no one *really* knows the truth. I've read quite a few comments under MSM articles, and a lot of random commenters think AL and KL bailed for Mexico which is easy to think if people aren't fully following every detail in the news stories and are only hearing snippets. More confusion.

JMO

In a sense, would the difference be that with the second mass murder, people initially had more hope and more fear? That is, was there more hope that someone survived the mass murder (missing instead), and fear that such a home invasion could happen to everyone?

In that context, after two weeks, the cases are essentially the same. With the second mass murder, the community knew after two weeks that a suspect had been apprehended, that it was an internal family murder, there was no hope that the child survived, and there was confirmation that the community was not at risk of a similar home invasion.

 

[news.talk]

In a sense, would the difference be that with the second mass murder, people initially had more hope and more fear? That is, was there more hope that someone survived the mass murder (missing instead), and fear that such a home invasion could happen to everyone?

In that context, after two weeks, the cases are essentially the same. With the second mass murder, the community knew after two weeks that a suspect had been apprehended, that it was an internal family murder, there was no hope that the child survived, and there was confirmation that the community was not at risk of a similar home invasion.

I personally think, that the differences are that the victims bodies were available and the suspect was without question the guilty party. LE was also able to clearly layout the crime to the public and media.

Whenever there are questions and/or secrecy surrounding evidence, suspects and method of murder, there is bound to be speculation and doubt. It is rare that a suspect is charge with only circumstantial evidence and no bodies.

 

[otto]

I personally think, that the differences are that the victims bodies were available and the suspect was without question the guilty party. LE was also able to clearly layout the crime to the public and media.

Whenever there are questions and/or secrecy surrounding evidence, suspects and method of murder, there is bound to be speculation and doubt. It is rare that a suspect is charge with only circumstantial evidence and no bodies.

Does it seem like the police have laid out the case to the same degree of information as they did with the first mass murder (2.5 months earlier)? Is anything known about forensic evidence in the first mass murder?

I guess a huge difference is that in the first mass murder, there were eye-witnesses, and in the second mass murder, the location of all victims continues to be a complete mystery.

 

[wendiesan]

I haven't found anything specific to Calgary but I did come across this link. At Pickton's trial members of victims' families were accommodated in a separate room.
http://missingwomen.blogspot.ca/2006_11_01_archive.html
"A separate room for members of the victims' families has been established, as well as a separate room for the media who are not in the courtrooms."

Yes. The Pickton trial took place in the B.C. Supreme Court in New Westminster, and both a main and an overflow courtroom were designated. There were so many direct and indirect victims involved in that trial, plus their advocates and the support from Victim Services in Vancouver and aboriginal services, and the evidence so graphic, that the separate room was definitely needed. Over 250 media were accredited to attend the trial. As well as a separate room for families, a separate room for media was established. Court protocol allowed for the drinking of beverages, gum chewing and reading in the family and media room, but regular rules were held in all other courtrooms.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

i find it interesting to compare how the community responded to each of the two recent mass murders. In the first mass murder, the suspect was quickly apprehended and no one questioned whether the correct person was arrested. The accused was known socially to the victims. The murders are unmotivated, random, and seem to be a result of mental illness. [/b] the victims were not missing, so funerals were held, the community held vigils, and on sept 4, there will be a concert and art show. "all money raised from ticket sale will be distributed among the five scholarships or trust funds established for joshua hunter, zackariah rathwell, lawrence hong, jordan segura, and kaiti perras." friends of the victims are the organizers of this event.



In the second mass murder, the suspect was apprehended two weeks after the murders, and some doubt that he is the right suspect. The accused is related to the victims. The victims are still missing, a vigil has been held, but no memorials are planned. The murders do not seem random, and do not appear to be a result of mental illness. Instead, these murders appear to be a result of a grudge, perhaps based on financial/business dealings.

I think that although a family murder (liknes/obrien) seems less of a threat to the community than a random murder (five students), it was probably the two week delay in an arrest that resulted in a different response from the community.

Does anyone know if there's a thread on ws for this case?

 

[otto]

Speaking of location of bodies, I think that the location will mean something to the accused in terms of him feeling smug about being so clever. I think he was seething with rage when he committed the murders, that he thought carefully about what he would do from beginning to end. When it came to hiding bodies, maybe that is what this has in common with the female remains that were found 16km W of the Airdrie acreage.

What does this murder have in common with that murder? I think a skull and leg bones were found in the 2006 or 07 case (?), but it could have been coyotes that disturbed the bones.

I'm wondering where he would put the bodies that would make sense in the context of his revenge. A wheat field, like the other remains?

Maybe evidence of her clothing was found in the burn pit that was under the tents during the search at the Airdrie property.