Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[otto]

Maybe they found some DNA in his truck? If she was a streetwalker on drugs, maybe he provided the drugs for her? It would make sense that she very well could've been in his vehicle. But why haven't they charged him with her murder yet? Waiting for testing results? You could be right, Otto. I would be surprised though...he may be a loner, he may have picked her up, but what would be his motivation to kill her? Surely to goodness if he is doing this for sport, he would've at least been a suspect...wouldn't LE have checked into the surrounding homes where her body was found, just as they did in this case? I don't know...but it does give pause for thought, that's for sure. Did he know her? Was she associated with KL maybe? If they were all from the same area, maybe they all knew each other? Hmmm, will check into this case too I think, sounds interesting.

If her DNA was in his truck, he would be charged with her murder. I think it's something else ... the scene, the injuries ... something. What sort of injuries did the other victim have?

I don't think police would check homes 16km from where the body was found. I think she was much younger than Kathryn. For some reason, after seeing the crime scenes, police came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to look at other murders. Perhaps the murders were too sophisticated to be a first time murder.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

He had the false identity documents re-issued. That's a bold move, and one where he's proving to himself that the government is pretty stupid. I think he would try to be clever with the location of the bodies while at the same time trying to get away with the murders.

As it is more difficult to create a false identity these days, it may have just been a matter of ease and convenience. Had someone in LE not made whatever officials responsible aware that the S.I.N. and identity should be expunged, then all it would have taken is sending a request for a copy or renewal. It's concerning that it wasn't red flagged.

I am more curious about what is the possible need for a second identity again... anticipating a need to flee? Fake employee of a dummy company? A need to hide purchases? Or is it just that there is a bad credit history, and all he wanted was a credit card to shop online?

Nothing has been proven in court, however, so it will be interesting to one day finally hear the truth.

 

[julydarling]

Gah. I've been away for a few days and had a LOT to catch up on.

I do not think that the victims, at least both of them, were killed in bed or ambushed while sleeping. If they had been, the bed/mattress would have shown signs of blood. Does anyone remember that creepy neighbour guy who went into the house when the movers were there? He said something about "a lot of cleaning on the wall". Unless he wandered through the whole house, I think its safe to say he saw this in a common area. JMO.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Gruesome:

"Missing: June 14, 1991 ... Sunday, June 16, 1991 was Father's Day. Bernardo and Homolka moved Mahaffy's body from an upstairs bedroom to the basement. They then entertained the Homolka family—without Homolka's sister, Tammy, whom they had killed December 24, 1990—on the main floor of the house, with Homolka making a special effort to keep her mother from going downstairs. When the family left, Bernardo and Homolka used his grandfather's circular saw to dismember Mahaffy's body into pieces small enough to lift when covered with concrete. Later, in a confession to her aunt before revealing details to the police, Homolka claimed that Bernardo did this while she was at work on Monday. Bernardo's version asserts that she did not help him rinse and bag the body parts.

Mahaffy's body was found dismembered and encased in concrete on June 29, 1991 in Lake Gibson near St. Catharines, Ontario. The concrete block containing the torso weighed over 200 pounds. Her braces and dental records confirmed her identity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Mahaffy

Not Gruesome

He had the false identity documents re-issued. That's a bold move, and one where he's proving to himself that the government is pretty stupid. I think he would try to be clever with the location of the bodies while at the same time trying to get away with the murders.

Wow! I had no idea that concrete would fall apart that fast! It was either a bold move, or a planned move. I don't know...I'm not picking up the smugness from him...IMO, he had a grudge and settled it his way. I really don't know why he would bother to bait LE like that...the payoff for showing them how clever he is, IMO is not worth them finding the bodies and linking them to him. I can see him disposing of them in such a way that they are never found and thinking that if they don't find the bodies, and don't find the weapon...they won't be successful in convicting. Maybe that's how he's trying to show his smugness...in literally getting away with murder. How does one do that? No bodies. No weapon. Casting reasonable doubt, despite the evidence. It's gonna be tough. I don't believe he will say one single word to LE no matter how many times they interrogate him...IMO, I think he will sit back and see if they can figure it out, and if they can't, too bad...and that will be his payoff. Only thing is, where is he going to go if he's acquitted? There's nowhere safe for him...not in, and not out. JMO

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

He had the false identity documents re-issued. That's a bold move, and one where he's proving to himself that the government is pretty stupid. I think he would try to be clever with the location of the bodies while at the same time trying to get away with the murders.

As it is more difficult to create a false identity these days, it may have just been a matter of ease and convenience. Had someone in LE not made whatever officials responsible aware that the S.I.N. and identity should be expunged, then all it would have taken is sending a request for a copy or renewal. It's concerning that it wasn't red flagged.

I am more curious about what is the possible need for a second identity again... anticipating a need to flee? Fake employee of a dummy company? A need to hide purchases? Or is it just that there is a bad credit history, and all he wanted was a credit card to shop online?

Nothing has been proven in court, however, so it will be interesting to one day finally hear the truth.

 

[otto]

Wow! I had no idea that concrete would fall apart that fast! It was either a bold move, or a planned move. I don't know...I'm not picking up the smugness from him...IMO, he had a grudge and settled it his way. I really don't know why he would bother to bait LE like that...the payoff for showing them how clever he is, IMO is not worth them finding the bodies and linking them to him. I can see him disposing of them in such a way that they are never found and thinking that if they don't find the bodies, and don't find the weapon...they won't be successful in convicting. Maybe that's how he's trying to show his smugness...in literally getting away with murder. How does one do that? No bodies. No weapon. Casting reasonable doubt, despite the evidence. It's gonna be tough. I don't believe he will say one single word to LE no matter how many times they interrogate him...IMO, I think he will sit back and see if they can figure it out, and if they can't, too bad...and that will be his payoff. Only thing is, where is he going to go if he's acquitted? There's nowhere safe for him...not in, and not out. JMO

He was arrested for cooking meth, and to avoid prison is created a false identity, claimed to have a BSc when he had little more than two years of university and an expulsion, he worked for 7 years with those false credentials, he took the government to court when he was denied benefits that applied to that false identity, he spend 6 months of a 39 months sentence in prison, and then he made a request for another set of false identity papers. That is very bold, and I think that he was smug in thinking that he had outsmarted everyone.

 

[Sillybilly]

That victim was a drug using street walker. It's not too difficult to figure out how they met. He's a loner, he knows something about drugs, he lives near the location of the remains ... and what else ... something else is similar to the crime scene of this mass murder. Was her apartment a crime scene?

Helena was addicted to crack and was known on the streets. She had lost her apartment, her job and custody of her 8 y.o. son. I don't have dates on when, but she had completed a Legal Assistant program at SAIT and had been employed as Legal Assistant.

PS: I haven't seen anything stating specifically that she was a stw. This is a good article that gives a better idea of who she was:

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=991e3730-c59a-4bf0-9829-e5033683ac4a

 

[Tinkerbel1]

As it is more difficult to create a false identity these days, it may have just been a matter of ease and convenience. Had someone in LE not made whatever officials responsible aware that the S.I.N. and identity should be expunged, then all it would have taken is sending a request for a copy or renewal. It's concerning that it wasn't red flagged.

I am more curious about what is the possible need for a second identity again... anticipating a need to flee? Fake employee of a dummy company? A need to hide purchases? Or is it just that there is a bad credit history, and all he wanted was a credit card to shop online?

Nothing has been proven in court, however, so it will be interesting to one day finally hear the truth.

I don't think he needed the fake id at all. IMO, for some reason, he was calling attention to himself on purpose. I don't know what the reason is, I don't know what he could've been thinking, it just looks to me that he did that deliberately. That's certainly not "laying low" after murdering 3 people, and I just don't get that he's even the silently 'boastful' type...he does not do things to attract attention...he avoids attention. Why would he put himself in the spotlight like that? JMO.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

He was arrested for cooking meth, and to avoid prison is created a false identity, claimed to have a BSc when he had little more than two years of university and an expulsion, he worked for 7 years with those false credentials, he took the government to court when he was denied benefits that applied to that false identity, he spend 6 months of a 39 months sentence in prison, and then he made a request for another set of false identity papers. That is very bold, and I think that he was smug in thinking that he had outsmarted everyone.

Did he make a request for another set of false identity papers? I wasn't aware of that. :/ I do agree with OutofTheDarkness about false identification being harder to get nowadays, so he just stuck with the old one he used, maybe that's all there is to that, didn't think anything of it. It sounds like his parents supplied him with money and they weren't home...maybe he didn't have anything else to buy what he needed with.

IMO, the above-mentioned behavior also could show feelings of "entitlement" and "self-righteousness", and perhaps not smugness. IMO, there's definitely a LOT of anger there. Maybe he just snapped. Probable drug use, loner existence, and a bad set of morals and values as indicated by his petty crimes. Maybe there's no big mystery to this at all and it's not all that complicated. Could be he just committed 3 murders because he was mad for whatever reason (NO just being at the wrong place at the wrong time) and he had a stroke of luck in disposing the bodies. If there was that much evidence at the crime scene, it doesn't appear that he was very careful while committing those murders therefore I doubt there was a big plan involved. IMO, the crime scene is where one would try and not leave evidence behind...sounds like there is a lot...and very definite evidence too. JMO

 

[wendiesan]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1507329/triple-murder-suspect-douglas-garland-to-make-court-appearance/
Posted August 14, 2014

Douglas Garland appears in court, friends of Liknes family launch trust fund
News Hour Calgary - Garland appears in court, trust fund started

Transcript of Global Calgary news report regarding the appearance of Douglas Garland in court on August 14, 2014.
This is not an official draft, and is not connected to any of the participants.
This is a rough draft, and all errors are my own.

Reporter = Nancy Hixt = NH Family Friend = Cherri Hodgins = CH
Crown Prosecutor = Shane Parker = SP Defence Attorney = Kim Ross = KR

NH: Heartbroken, close friends of the O'Brien and Liknes families left court Thursday. They came to see the man accused of killing five year old Nathan and his grandparents, Alvin and Kathryn.

CH: I am Kathryn's closest friend. She was my dearest friend in the whole world. Jennifer is very dear to me.

NH: 54 year old Douglas Garland appeared very briefly via CCTV from the Calgary Remand Centre. His appearance lasted just a minute or so, just long enough for the prosecution and defence to adjourn the matter over for another month. In the meantime, the Crown will be passing their case against Garland on to defence in the next few days.

SP: As you can appreciate, for the number of resources that were used by the police, when every officer has to generate notes, that generates material that has to be disclosed. So, it is voluminous.

KR: He's anxious to see the disclosure also. So, hopefully, once we get that next week, we can start moving this forward.

NH: The bodies of the three family members still haven't been found, but investigators continue to work on the case.

SP: Police are continuing their searches, and we are encouraged by the lab results that we're getting back.

NH: Family of Nathan and his grandparents came to court Thursday as well. But, left before the appearance after finding out the case was being put over. Alberta Justice says it's doing its best to keep the family informed.

SP: It's critical, just from the human standpoint, making sure they understand what's happening. It's a confusing time on so many levels for them. And, if we can help them--explain the court process--then that's helpful.

NH: Friends are concerned about the family, and have started a fundraiser called Superheroes Are Real in honour of Nathan, the five year old superhero.

CH: The Likneses, Kathy and Alvin, have six children. They had twelve grandchildren. And, the family is in pieces. Nobody is working. Nobody can get back to normalicy [sic], whatever normalicy [sic] means to us at this point. But it is going to take a long time for us to be able to recover. And, this is a young family that didn't deserve this, but does deserve our help and our support.

NH: Nancy Hixt, Global News.

 

[Sillybilly]

This case is probably not related (there is suspicion wrt her partner DR), but putting it out there anyway, just because the victim lived in Airdrie and the case has not been solved.

Brief summary ... 2006 Ruth Degayo of 42 Thornbird Rise, Airdrie (that physical location is somewhat interesting), charred remains were found in an abandoned cabin between Canmore and Morley, AB. Two vehicles were seen in the area where her remains were located. Ruth was from the Philippines and had worked as a health records clerk at the Peter Lougheed Centre. She was CIL/married to DR who did not report her missing until others noticed she was. In 2003 she was a passenger in a car that was rear-ended. The accident resulted in her son's premature birth and disability; there was a subsequent $4 million lawsuit.

 

[Cherchri]

That would explain all the overflow in the courtroom at the Pickton trial. This trial has really only one family; two grandparents, and one grandson. Seven related children/parents are grieving. I don't see this like the Pickton trial, where there were 33 victims and "over 250 media were accredited to attend the trial. As well as a separate room for families, a separate room for media was established."

Not my point at all and I'm sure it was clear. A private room would prevent family from having to run the gauntlet with public and media. I know some courthouses have the facility and I shared the example. JO was in the building on Thursday but not in the courtroom. I wonder why she would go to the trouble of getting there and not attend so assume there was somewhere private for her to wait and possibly watch the proceedings as well

 

[kdgdid]

I agree I have been wondering why her name was specifically identified as a case LE is looking into in regards to DG. It has to be something more than she was dumped in the general area of where he lives.More than 1 body has been dumped north of Airdrie why specifically mention that case if there is nothing to tie it to DG?

If her DNA was in his truck, he would be charged with her murder. I think it's something else ... the scene, the injuries ... something. What sort of injuries did the other victim have?

I don't think police would check homes 16km from where the body was found. I think she was much younger than Kathryn. For some reason, after seeing the crime scenes, police came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to look at other murders. Perhaps the murders were too sophisticated to be a first time murder.

 

[Cherchri]

Gah. I've been away for a few days and had a LOT to catch up on.

I do not think that the victims, at least both of them, were killed in bed or ambushed while sleeping. If they had been, the bed/mattress would have shown signs of blood. Does anyone remember that creepy neighbour guy who went into the house when the movers were there? He said something about "a lot of cleaning on the wall". Unless he wandered through the whole house, I think its safe to say he saw this in a common area. JMO.

So what makes you think there wasn't a bloody mattress and possibly missing bedding? What makes you think the nosy neighbour wasn't in the master bedroom?

 

[musicaljoke]

...
He had the false identity documents re-issued. That's a bold move, and one where he's proving to himself that the government is pretty stupid. I think he would try to be clever with the location of the bodies while at the same time trying to get away with the murders.

Do you have a link for that? I had assume that he had simply retained possession of a false identity document.

 

[deugirtni]

Just some questions and ponderings...

i)Cherchri or anyone else, I just wondered if there were any family members or other supporters of DG in attendance at his court date?

ii)I am not sure how things work/progress in the justice system, and so I looked back at the Millard case just to see.. but I can't even find where it is published when it was exactly, that Millard entered his plea of 'not-guilty' (or even if he has, as of yet?)- I can only find reference to the fact that he WILL be pleading not guilty (weird).. I just wondered.. is it odd that DG has not yet entered his plea, or is that something that waits until his legal defense has received full disclosure??

iii)Is it weird that DG's lawyer has not said something along the lines of, 'we will be defending this case zealously' (kind of quoted from what Millard's lawyer said), and further, nothing from the lawyer saying something like, 'DG will be pleading not guilty'..

iv)Is it weird that it seems like DG's lawyer is waiting on disclosure before deciding how to proceed (ie with a psych exam/bail request/etc)? Is that how it works? A lawyer doesn't bother listening to his client, he simply waits for disclosure? He was quoted in the Globe & Mail ( http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/family-of-missing-trio-shattered-as-suspect-makes-court-appearance/article20070677/ ) :

Defence lawyer Kim Ross said he has only spoken briefly with his client.

“He’s doing as good as can be expected in this situation. He’s anxious to see the disclosure also,” he said.

“Hopefully when we get that next week we can start moving this forward.”

Ross said a decision on whether to seek bail or a psychiatric assessment won’t be made until after he’s had a chance to review the evidence.

Note: IMOO, I would be anxious also to see the disclosure if it were 'me' in there, and especially if I had NOT commited the crime in question.

v)Has LE returned home from their investigative trip to Mexico? You would think if they had, that MSM would have been all over that. I can't find a word about it since it was first discovered on August 5/6? Has anyone else?

 

[deugirtni]

Is there a link to a report stating they found her button in his fire pit?

Which ... they found her button in his fire pit, only partial remains will be found, or this is another case where the bodies are taken from their crime scene and are really well hidden? Where did she live, and was the crime scene identified, or did she simply vanish?

 

[PonderingNS]

When I think on a killer planning out the whole thing and a means of disposing of the bodies I don't see them then leaving behind a bloody crime scene. Unless something went wrong at the home. Either the struggle was more than anticipated , someone walked into a room , the child being there caused something to go differently maybe and the plan went out the window for a few minutes at least while murder took place.
After removing the bodies I feel the plan was back on and they were dissolved in acid either in a small pond or old well.
I myself have worked with chemicals that will burn in seconds and eat through skin if left in contact in a matter of minutes. ( a few ppl have had accidents working with lye and gruesome results )
After that leaving any bones that remained either in the pond/swamp/ well or if a container was used and you actually had physical bones left you wanted rid of common household vinegar is considered a mild acid, but it is strong enough to dissolve away the calcium in the bone. Once the calcium is dissolved, there is nothing to keep the bone hard - all that is left is the soft bone tissue. Some may remember this experiment from science class with small bones and a jar of vinegar. A few days should give time for all this as the lye is very fast. The vinegar if you were going that route instead of say a wood chipper or something would be the longest part. A chicken leg in science took three days to go rubbery.
You don't need a large quantity ( as in more than a couple of trips to the store to not attract attention ) of lye, water or vinegar to make all this happen.
I am just sharing my thoughts on it. I don't see someone making a careful plan then not worrying about a messy crime scene the two don't gel in my mind. Since we have no bodies so far I would say the disposal part of the plan went as planned at least.

 

[deugirtni]

I find that odd also. In the article she states that she is close to JO, but doesn't even mention the son, and yet he is younger. Is he married? Living alone? I felt really bad for him during the press conference in the beginning. Most of the focus of course, is on the young NO, however the Liknes' own son is very young also to have lost his parents, you would think there would be more visible support for him also.

Edit: At first when I read that, I figured that she specifically mentioned that she is close to JO because the 2 women met many years ago, before KL had met AL... but after thinking more, I am thinking that if they remained as close over the years, then the woman also would have been close to the young son. MOO. I don't think I have seen where it has been said what the time reference was, regarding the two women agreeing to look after one another's families, has anyone seen a reference to when they made that agreement? Just curious if it was like.. 35 years ago.. or.. recently, you know?

I'm wondering how a friend of Kathryn's, specifically fundraising for Kathryn's family, could overlook the child Kathryn had with Alvin. Unless there is a fund specifically for those two children, then any fundraising based on looking after Kathryn's "family" (ie: natural children) is a bit weird. Is Cherrie Hodgins fundraising for the two children, or just one ... and if just one, why?

 

[deugirtni]

Just a question..
Regarding the staining on the sidewalk beside the L home.. how do we know that it was bodily fluids? And how do we know that it was a recent staining and not an older mess that had dried/faded? Have I missed articles stating either of those conclusions?