Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[otto]

Would there not be designated rooms for both prosecuting and defense sides?

The whole idea of having an open court, and then having private rooms for people to view the trial from within the courthouse seems odd to me. I can understand that the family has questions about the court/trial process. Given that the prosecutor stated during his media remarks on Aug 14 that he would be meeting with the victim's family in the next couple of weeks to explain the process suggests to me that there was some frustration on behalf of the victim's family regarding access to information about the trial process. If the family had some frustration about the process, there could have been an exception made whereby the family was taken to the prosecutor's offices to view the short hearing from CCTV. At that time, they could have received assurances that they will be kept in the loop, and they could have been referred to resources/services where they can find support while they go through the process.

I don't really understand why there would be private rooms for people that want to follow the case, but who do not want to sit in the courtroom. That isn't how trials have been conducted in the past. Maybe it's the new thing of the future, but for what reason?

 

[Deleted member 117120]

I think DG is really anxious to see what evidence they have against him because he still thinks he got away with it. He wants to see what they actually have. He is probably not saying much to LE until he knows what they have. I am praying that after he sees the huge amount of evidence, he realizes that he is NOT going to get away with it and finally admits to what he did with the bodies... I think until he sees the proof they have he still feels there is a chance of him getting away with it. (Especially without the bodies).

Good point mumma, and perhaps that is why LE is/did get all their ducks in a row before handing over the disclosure. I hope that when the disclosure is reviewed that the suspects lawyer advises him wisely and the victims remains can be located.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

The whole idea of having an open court, and then having private rooms for people to view the trial from within the courthouse seems odd to me. I can understand that the family has questions about the court/trial process. Given that the prosecutor stated during his media remarks on Aug 14 that he would be meeting with the victim's family in the next couple of weeks to explain the process suggests to me that there was some frustration on behalf of the victim's family regarding access to information about the trial process. If the family had some frustration about the process, there could have been an exception made whereby the family was taken to the prosecutor's offices to view the short hearing from CCTV. At that time, they could have received assurances that they will be kept in the loop, and they could have been referred to resources/services where they can find support while they go through the process.

I don't really understand why there would be private rooms for people that want to follow the case, but who do not want to sit in the courtroom. That isn't how trials have been conducted in the past. Maybe it's the new thing of the future, but for what reason?

I see your point otto, maybe for clarity someone could inquire who lives locally. A simple inquiry to reception court clerks about a scenario of a non specific case as to whether there are allocated screening rooms for family members only if deemed appropriate by the defense and/or prosecuting lawyers.

 

[otto]

I see your point otto, maybe for clarity someone could inquire who lives locally. A simple inquiry to reception court clerks about a scenario of a non specific case as to whether there are allocated screening rooms for family members only if deemed appropriate by the defense and/or prosecuting lawyers.

I think it would be more of an exception than the norm. For example, there are five families associated with the victims of the mass murder of students (aged 19-27) in April 2014. That could amount to 10-20 (or many more) people representing the victims. The courtroom is the place that is allocated for those interested parties. Why should there be a separate room for them? I'm sure that the courts want to accommodate the needs of the victim's families, but I don't think that the process will be turned upside down with two courtrooms (one with TV, one with actual trial) to accommodate people that for whatever reason don't feel comfortable in the same room as the accused. Shouldn't the families want the accused to see them?

 

[musicaljoke]

Just to finish this train of thought heat also effects bones . A simple household oven at 250 for three hours breaks down the collagen. Without collagen, the bone is brittle and easy to break. ( science again)
Again gruesome but just to show that once you have a bare bone destroying it is easy

Oh, I'm not so sure of that. Bone is incredibly strong and doesn't deteriorate easily. It would take a considerable effort, special equipment, and specific knowledge to completely destroy a human skeleton. Even the fire of a crematorium is not sufficient to reduce human bones to ashes.

 

[goodasgold]

So I guess I am confused. If someone is innocent, then would they really need to see the disclosure before deciding to plead not guilty? I just think it is odd, imho, that there has been no claim from the accused's lawyer that the accused will be pleading not guilty and that he will be defending him vigorously. Am I reading too much into that?

DG may want to plead not guilty, however, the lawyer may be the one postponing the plea to see what evidence they have on DG. Whether or not DG is innocent the lawyer is not going to take his word for it. He will want the evidence in order to discuss with DG the proper plea they should go with. JMO

 

[otto]

Oh, I'm not so sure of that. Bone is incredibly strong and doesn't deteriorate easily. It would take a considerable effort, special equipment, and specific knowledge to completely destroy a human skeleton. Even the fire of a crematorium is not sufficient to reduce human bones to ashes.

Additionally, we have heard that the bodies were not found on the Airdrie acreage. Where would this have happened? It would be time consuming to burn bodies to dust in a firepit, so if it happened on someone else's land, hopefully the landowners would have noticed someone burning something on their property.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Does anyone know who owns the property that the race facility near DG's acreage is to be put on?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Additionally, we have heard that the bodies were not found on the Airdrie acreage. Where would this have happened? It would be time consuming to burn bodies to dust in a firepit, so if it happened on someone else's land, hopefully the landowners would have noticed someone burning something on their property.

Its amazing what one could know about neighboring properties in rural areas. There are many areas that farmers dump things that would be known mainly to them...could be DG knew someone was away on vacation. Could be that he knew the hours of the church his parents attend and did something there when it wasn't occupied...could be an abandoned old shack in a field somewhere...there's lots of places he could go to do whatever he wanted. I see trucks parked along the hiways unoccupied, at the gates of open fields...I assume its the landowners checking their fields, but it might be someone dismembering bodies...and burying them. As long as he doesn't make too much noise, and there isn't a fire, I'm sure he could've gone anywhere.

 

[otto]

Its amazing what one could know about neighboring properties in rural areas. There are many areas that farmers dump things that would be known mainly to them...could be DG knew someone was away on vacation. Could be that he knew the hours of the church his parents attend and did something there when it wasn't occupied...could be an abandoned old shack in a field somewhere...there's lots of places he could go to do whatever he wanted. I see trucks parked along the hiways unoccupied, at the gates of open fields...I assume its the landowners checking their fields, but it might be someone dismembering bodies...and burying them. As long as he doesn't make too much noise, and there isn't a fire, I'm sure he could've gone anywhere.

Burning three bodies in a fire pit until the bones became dust would be like putting a bull's-eye on his head. I would think that he would want to distance himself from the bodies as quickly as possible ... so they're probably somewhere in the countryside, perhaps intact, perhaps not.

 

[Cherchri]

Can you imagine.. a room filled with only families of both victims and accused, all together?

No definitely separate family rooms envisaged even though in this case one person belongs to both sides of the family. What a terrible ordeal this must all be for her.

 

[goodasgold]

No definitely separate family rooms envisaged even though in this case one person belongs to both sides of the family. What a terrible ordeal this must all be for her.

I feel so bad for PG. I mean you want justice for your family members but her brother is her brother. It would be a bunch of emotions and pain. Tough spot for anyone to be in. No matter what way the verdict goes it will affect her.

 

[Cherchri]

Additionally, we have heard that the bodies were not found on the Airdrie acreage. Where would this have happened? It would be time consuming to burn bodies to dust in a firepit, so if it happened on someone else's land, hopefully the landowners would have noticed someone burning something on their property.

You may recall I shared a link before to support my theory - that DG used lye and then incineration. Here is the guts of that link from http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/...e-to-dispose-of-a-body-with-hydrofluoric-acid
The standard body-dissolving chemical is lye aka sodium hydroxide. The main source is drain clog remover, because most drain clogs are formed by hair and other bio-gunk that accumulates naturally when humans shower, exfoliate etc. It works, even though the body's overall chemistry is slightly to the basic side of neutral (about 7.35-7.4), because the hydroxide anion is a strong proton acceptor. That means that it strips hydrogen atoms off of organic molecules to form water (alkaline hydrolysis, aka saponification), and as a result, those organic molecules are turned into simpler molecules with lower melting points (triglycerides are turned into fatty acids, saturated fats are dehydrogenated to form unsaturated fats, alkanes become alcohols, etc). Sodium hydroxide is also a ready source of the sodium ion; sodium salts are always water-soluble (at least I can't think of a single one that isn't). The resulting compounds are thus either liquids or water-soluble alcohols and salts, which flush down the drain. What's left is the brittle, insoluble calcium "shell" of the skeleton; if hydrolyzed by sodium hydroxide, the resulting calcium hydroxide ("slaked lime") won't dissolve completely but is relatively easy to clean up.

 

[LoisLane]

Does anyone know who owns the property that the race facility near DG's acreage is to be put on?

I have looked into this as well and posted comments a few times. I am out of town right now and do not have my notes. Possibly Stan Laurel may know.

 

[otto]

No definitely separate family rooms envisaged even though in this case one person belongs to both sides of the family. What a terrible ordeal this must all be for her.

Why would courthouses be designed with courtrooms to accommodate the public, and then two additional rooms for all the people (supporting victim or accused) that want to be accommodated but who, for whatever reason, don't want to sit in a courtroom? That doesn't make any sense to me. If there was that much extra space in the courthouse, I'm sure the prosecutor's offices would be bigger and each would have a room with a view.

 

[otto]

You may recall I shared a link before to support my theory - that DG used lye and then incineration. Here is the guts of that link from http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/...e-to-dispose-of-a-body-with-hydrofluoric-acid
The standard body-dissolving chemical is lye aka sodium hydroxide. The main source is drain clog remover, because most drain clogs are formed by hair and other bio-gunk that accumulates naturally when humans shower, exfoliate etc. It works, even though the body's overall chemistry is slightly to the basic side of neutral (about 7.35-7.4), because the hydroxide anion is a strong proton acceptor. That means that it strips hydrogen atoms off of organic molecules to form water (alkaline hydrolysis, aka saponification), and as a result, those organic molecules are turned into simpler molecules with lower melting points (triglycerides are turned into fatty acids, saturated fats are dehydrogenated to form unsaturated fats, alkanes become alcohols, etc). Sodium hydroxide is also a ready source of the sodium ion; sodium salts are always water-soluble (at least I can't think of a single one that isn't). The resulting compounds are thus either liquids or water-soluble alcohols and salts, which flush down the drain. What's left is the brittle, insoluble calcium "shell" of the skeleton; if hydrolyzed by sodium hydroxide, the resulting calcium hydroxide ("slaked lime") won't dissolve completely but is relatively easy to clean up.

There's no evidence of the bodies on the Airdrie acreage, so it didn't happen there. Where would it have happened? If something was put down the drain at the Airdrie acreage, how would all those chemicals interact with a septic tank? Bleach is a problem for a septic tank.

 

[Cherchri]

Why would courthouses be designed with courtrooms to accommodate the public, and then two additional rooms for all the people (supporting victim or accused) that want to be accommodated but who, for whatever reason, don't want to sit in a courtroom? That doesn't make any sense to me. If there was that much extra space in the courthouse, I'm sure the prosecutor's offices would be bigger and each would have a room with a view.

Geez I don't know why this point is being belaboured. I was curious if there was a facility that's all. I imagine it would be easier on those people and I see it has been done before in high profile cases. It's not a big deal to me at all.

 

[Cherchri]

There's no evidence of the bodies on the Airdrie acreage, so it didn't happen there. Where would it have happened? If something was put down the drain at the Airdrie acreage, how would all those chemicals interact with a septic tank? Bleach is a problem for a septic tank.

This scenario would leave no evidence Otto. Drums could have been used and then incineration. The lye can take effect in as little as 3 hours and we do know there was burning all day on the property as witnessed by a neighbour. I don't recall but think that was July 1. The links were provided a few weeks back.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

There's no evidence of the bodies on the Airdrie acreage, so it didn't happen there. Where would it have happened? If something was put down the drain at the Airdrie acreage, how would all those chemicals interact with a septic tank? Bleach is a problem for a septic tank.

We haven't been told that there was no evidence the victims were at the acreage. It's highly likely there is something, since LE couldn't possibly think a truck picture, and some blood at the home is proof enough for charges. There also has to be evidence of 3 individual deaths, which means something was left behind somewhere that a human cannot reasonably live without.

Bone can also simply be ground down with something as basic as a bench grinder if you really wanted to. If I were mechanically inclined, or owned a machinery company, I might build something myself, during the planning phase, to pulverize the burned remains to dust.

If it was DG, he, would have not expected to be pictured, and discovered so quickly. We can assume making the bodies disappear was part of the plan, but perhaps the plan included having more time to do it. Once the deed is done, especially with an unexpected 3rd victim, then ad-libbing will create mistakes and oversights.

 

[LoisLane]

I have looked into this as well and posted comments a few times. I am out of town right now and do not have my notes. Possibly Stan Laurel may know.

Take a look at this corporate listing document and ctrl. F Rockyview Motorsports. The head office is listed as
Suite 509, 10333 Southport Road SW, Calgary AB T2W 3X6. I have not searched.. On an Ipad today.

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/gazette/2013/pdf/04_Feb28_Registrar.pdf

P F is the GM