Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[otto]

Not that this was a method used to dispose of the victims, but almost all your questions have been answered.

What did he use that was pressurized?
Perhaps nothing, and it took the extra hour or two that you yourself quoted.


Where are the bone fragments?
Well, wouldn't it make sense that LE may have found some at the acreage? It sure would then be easy to prove the victims are deceased, and it would also make it easy to prove the alleged perp was involved since they would have been found on the property. LE is not going to release that information, so we don't know what, if anything, was found.

Where are the drums?
Wasn't there an aerial pic of some? Or perhaps they are inside one of the numerous buildings.

Where is a second reference to verify whatever?
Google it.

The biggest problem with the linked article is that the information is contradicted in other articles. It's an unreferenced opinion based on nothing.

Google it.

 

[Cherchri]

This information about murdering his wife is not the same as the information in the linked article about using lye to make a body disappear. I don't believe that this linked article about using lye is reliable: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/12/soluble_dilemma.html

Additionally, if we're going to hold journalists to such a high standard that they must use the criminal code terms used by police to describe a crime scene, rather than common day to day language, then we also have to ensure that linked sources are valid and verified with references.

Adolph Louis Luetgert

"Adolph Louis Luetgert, a German born entrepreneur who opened the A.L. Luetgert Sausage & Packing Company, in 1879, lives in Chicago infamy as the man who may, or may not have, turned his beautiful young bride into packaged meats. ... This series of circumstantial evidence led Schuettler to devise the theory that Luetgert, in an effort to eliminate his young bride in order to marry a wealthy widow he was reportedly spotted all over the city with, had killed his wife, boiled her remains in acid, and then disposed of what was left over in the industrial furnaces at his meat packing factory. He and a team of officers drained the 12 foot by 5 foot smoking vat adjacent to the furnaces inside the factory and discovered a heavy ring with the letters "L.L." inscribed inside, as well as the fragment of a female skull.

Coincidentally, he claimed, Adolph Luetgert had given his beautiful young bride a very heavy metal ring with her new initials, L.L., Louise Luetgert, inscribed inside the band, upon their marriage. He argued vehemently that his wife had simply "disappeared".

Officers discovered an additional ring, as well as a toe phalanx, and a rib in the remains of the furnace, and, supposedly, a third ring was found in the cast-off pan of one of Luetgert's meat grinders."

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sausage-king-kills-the-strange-story-of-adolph-luetgert

NOTE: this article claims that acid, not lye (per the linked article) was used, and that an industrial furnace could not destroy bone.

Here are some more links for your perusal. Please note that many refer to lye as acid. It is not. It is caustic soda, sodium hydroxide, lye or NaOH

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-tijuanadruglord18-2008dec18-story.html#page=1
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2013/04/el-pozolero-legacy-of-death-by-tijuanas.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27257822
Sodium hydroxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
Sodium hydroxide, also known as caustic soda, or lye, is an inorganic .... Mexico, a man who worked for drug cartels admitted disposing over 300 bodies with it.

 

[Sillybilly]

I remember this too, no finished product. I wonder if this was his first time or if he was seasoned and made it before? I still think after he was caught in BC and came back to Alberta he decided to no longer 'get his hands dirty' doing the labour work and focused on making paper trails 'legal' and got into transporting 'goods', might've been hard for him to give up the science though.

The actual charge against him was "FDA - 39(1) Traffic in a controlled drug Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert", so presumably there was product to traffic.

We've only heard about sentencing in all those old charges. I wonder if DG had a lawyer, represented himself, or if he pled guilty.

 

[Sillybilly]

Jumping off from your post. We know some of the symptoms which DG has displayed at different points of his life, and have been drawing our own conclusions about the potential pathologies which might underly them. As well DG has been called a meth cook (http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...ve-year-old-pleads-please-keep-your-eyes-open) and pleaded guilty to two counts of drug trafficking, (http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...k+Liknes+family+drug+past/10005813/story.html).

<rsbm>

West Coast here just waking up, but in the links you provided, I don't see any reference to DG having pled guilty to 2 counts of drug trafficking. Could you please tell where you found that info. Thanks !!

 

[CentralAlberta]

Hmmm....an Icecream bucket full? That would spread out over a driveway that long- anywhere for that matter
The slough- possibly, I'd be worried though that they might drift and settle around the edges

Chemicals, burning, disposal. These have been my thoughts all along. I wonder what the wind was like in the few days following. It wouldn't have been difficult to head out to foot hills and dump ashes on a windy day OR my other thought is a few public fire pits.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

With the report of the greenhouse lights being on in the middle of the night and the neighbour finding that unusual...then him burning the next day...all day....very unusual for 'just household trash' to be burning 'all day'

Has anyone had the pleasure of smelling burning hair, fingernails, and other protein-based things? I'm of the opinion that the smell of Graphic: burning human bodies (sorry for the visual) should have alerted the neighbor to it not being normal household trash. There's a distinct smell that comes with this. The only other explanation for a smell like that would be dead animals...do the Garland's have animals on their acreage? Seems strange to me that no one has reported a distinctive smell from the burning garbage. JMO

 

[LoyalSleuth]

I haven't been in this thread in a while, I lurk from time to time... I guess I check in and lurk to see if there has been any developments, seems nothing... The last thing I really heard was the CPS going to Mexico...

I just can't imagine that if DG is guilty what did he do with the bodies?

 

[Linike]

With the report of the greenhouse lights being on in the middle of the night and the neighbour finding that unusual...then him burning the next day...all day....very unusual for 'just household trash' to be burning 'all day'

Has anyone had the pleasure of smelling burning hair, fingernails, and other protein-based things? I'm of the opinion that the smell of Graphic: burning human bodies (sorry for the visual) should have alerted the neighbor to it not being normal household trash. There's a distinct smell that comes with this. The only other explanation for a smell like that would be dead animals...do the Garland's have animals on their acreage? Seems strange to me that no one has reported a distinctive smell from the burning garbage. JMO

This is a 'farm' on a rural property. The surrounding area may have various types of farming, be it pig, chicken, cattle..........there are many associated putrid smells from these type of operations. Growing up in a rural area there are always varying pungent smells coming from farms. Some of these farms have liquid manure holding areas, also livestock that hasnt made it that may be disposed of on the farm.

 

[goodasgold]

This is a 'farm' on a rural property. The surrounding area may have various types of farming, be it pig, chicken, cattle..........there are many associated putrid smells from these type of operations. Growing up in a rural area there are always varying pungent smells coming from farms. Some of these farms have liquid manure holding areas, also livestock that hasnt made it that may be disposed of on the farm.

Just from my own experience i have to say the farm smells are quite different than burning a human smell. I grew up on a farm and have smelled all of the above. I also have been near a cremation place and those two are completely different. I honestly do not know how the people who do the cremations do it. It is the worst smell i have ever smelled. There is no mistaken the smell of burning flesh even if you never have. JMO

 

[goodasgold]

I would think if he was burning anything related to the crime it was materials he used or the victims clothing and bedding or even his own clothing that night. He probably burned it all day to make sure there would be no evidence left. JMO

 

[goodasgold]

I haven't been in this thread in a while, I lurk from time to time... I guess I check in and lurk to see if there has been any developments, seems nothing... The last thing I really heard was the CPS going to Mexico...

I just can't imagine that if DG is guilty what did he do with the bodies?

That right there is the million dollar question that we would all love to know the answer to.

 

[goodasgold]

I have said this before but just maybe he embalmed the bodies (in the greenhouse) to hold off the decomposing smell for awhile and then buried them somewhere. Wonder if he knew embalming ideas with his chemicals. JMO. Such a morbid thought i do not want to even think about.

 

[LoisLane]

This article is titled "A-Z Guide to Murder Cases Without a Body"
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95807&page=1&singlePage=true

 

[Cherchri]

With the report of the greenhouse lights being on in the middle of the night and the neighbour finding that unusual...then him burning the next day...all day....very unusual for 'just household trash' to be burning 'all day'

Has anyone had the pleasure of smelling burning hair, fingernails, and other protein-based things? I'm of the opinion that the smell of Graphic: burning human bodies (sorry for the visual) should have alerted the neighbor to it not being normal household trash. There's a distinct smell that comes with this. The only other explanation for a smell like that would be dead animals...do the Garland's have animals on their acreage? Seems strange to me that no one has reported a distinctive smell from the burning garbage. JMO

Except that there wouldn't have been any hair, skin, etc after being treated with lye. Only bits of calcified bone and dentition.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I have said this before but just maybe he embalmed the bodies (in the greenhouse) to hold off the decomposing smell for awhile and then buried them somewhere. Wonder if he knew embalming ideas with his chemicals. JMO. Such a morbid thought i do not want to even think about.

Highly, highly, highly, unlikely.

Preserving bodies you want to dispose of is counterproductive to say the least.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Just from my own experience i have to say the farm smells are quite different than burning a human smell. I grew up on a farm and have smelled all of the above. I also have been near a cremation place and those two are completely different. I honestly do not know how the people who do the cremations do it. It is the worst smell i have ever smelled. There is no mistaken the smell of burning flesh even if you never have. JMO

If you are burning tissue with other materials, that helps to mask the smell. As well, it wouldn't produce endless hours of odor. Add to that the distance it would have to travel in the right wind direction for a neighbor to actually smell it, and you have a plausible theory as to why no one may have detected an odor.

Then again... who knows...maybe someone did smell something and, as per usual, LE cannot disclose that fact.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

This is a 'farm' on a rural property. The surrounding area may have various types of farming, be it pig, chicken, cattle..........there are many associated putrid smells from these type of operations. Growing up in a rural area there are always varying pungent smells coming from farms. Some of these farms have liquid manure holding areas, also livestock that hasnt made it that may be disposed of on the farm.

Yes, agreed. I understand that as I had spent a lot of time on my grandparents' farms growing up. I've been there with the manure thing, the butchering, the chicken-plucking and gutting, and the burning of animals that have died. Each having their own special characteristic smells The smell of burning protein is definitely distinct and not something that I would imagine is present in rural areas everyday. I understood DG's home to be an acreage. I wasn't aware that there are or were animals on it. If there aren't, then a smell like that coming from there would definitely be noticed...especially if it was going on all day. JMO.
I worked across the street from a large crematorium in Edmonton, the smoke that billows out of the chimney from the burning is black, black, black...definitely something that I would've noticed anyway if I were the neighbor...especially if its not done all the time, again, just a passing observation.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Yes, agreed. I understand that as I had spent a lot of time on my grandparents' farms growing up. I've been there with the manure thing, the butchering, the chicken-plucking and gutting, and the burning of animals that have died. Each having their own special characteristic smells The smell of burning protein is definitely distinct and not something that I would imagine is present in rural areas everyday. I understood DG's home to be an acreage. I wasn't aware that there are or were animals on it. If there aren't, then a smell like that coming from there would definitely be noticed...especially if it was going on all day. JMO.
I worked across the street from a large crematorium in Edmonton, the smoke that billows out of the chimney from the burning is black, black, black...definitely something that I would've noticed anyway if I were the neighbor...especially if its not done all the time, again, just a passing observation.

Isn't that what potentially happened? If that report was accurate, then a neighbor noticed burning all day which was classified as unusual.

 

[LoriMcA]

Except that there wouldn't have been any hair, skin, etc after being treated with lye. Only bits of calcified bone and dentition.

ITA! Which is why my theory goes along with yours....chemicals then burning...then disposal. JMOO

 

[wendiesan]

<rsbm>

West Coast here just waking up, but in the links you provided, I don't see any reference to DG having pled guilty to 2 counts of drug trafficking. Could you please tell where you found that info. Thanks !!

Sorry about that.

Two years later, while he was working at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, RCMP caught up with Garland. He pleaded guilty to his old drug charges &#8212; two counts of trafficking &#8212; and was sentenced to 39 months in prison. He received an additional one month for possession of stolen property.

The Parole Board of Canada granted him accelerated release after six months.

http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/...l-past-records-1.1206953#sthash.bhAw089F.dpuf

Two years later, while he was working at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, RCMP caught up with Garland. He pleaded guilty to his old drug charges &#8212; two counts of trafficking &#8212; and was sentenced to 39 months in prison. He received an additional one month for possession of stolen property.

The Parole Board of Canada granted him accelerated release after six months

.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/07/15/douglas-garland-murder-charge_n_5588760.html

Justice officials say Garland pleaded guilty to two counts of drug trafficking and was sentenced to 39 months. He received an additional one month for possession of stolen property.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/..._of_missing_calgary_boy_appears_in_court.html

One document says that after a year of medical school in Alberta, Garland had a breakdown. It also says he suffers from attention deficit disorder and was traumatized after a horrific car crash caused when he fell asleep at the wheel. Another document blames mental issues in part for various property offences he was convicted of committing more than 20 years ago.

In 1992, he was arrested for making amphetamines at his parents&#8217; farm. But documents from his tax case say he skipped bail and fled to Vancouver, where he assumed the name of a dead teen...he suffered another breakdown and was fired in 1997.

Two years later, while he was working at the British Columbia Institute of Technology, RCMP caught up with Garland.

He pleaded guilty to his old drug charges, two counts of trafficking, and was sentenced to 39 months in prison. He received an additional one month for possession of stolen property.

http://beaconnews.ca/calgary/2014/0...-man-with-mental-issues-criminal-pastrecords/

An added note, FWIW, when I read "property offences", it somehow sounds innocuous, especially as the Parole Board of Canada seemed pretty blasé about DG's record. To I checked. Not really that innocuous. Property offences include: robbery; break and enter; unlawfully in a dwelling; possession of break-in instruments; forceable entry; motor vehicle theft; theft; fraudulent concealment; theft and forgery of a credit card; possession of stolen property; obtaining property by false pretenses; forgery; counterfeiting; breach of trust; fraud; fraudulently obtaining food; taxi fraud; mischief; arson; unauthorized use of computer; identity theft.

I'd sure like to see the specific charges. If I find anything, I'll post.