Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[stan laurel]

If I didn't want to smell bodies, I'd rather put on a mask, than embalm someone.

when I worked at the slaughterhouse, not all the animals were fresh, sometimes they were at the turning stage. there is fresh carrion smell and then there is the other smell. scent is interesting, one cannot just smell a scent but taste it pending the turning stage, and it clings to everything, your hair, your shirt, your skin, your everything. there were days that I felt as if it were penetrating my skin like a permanent scent tattoo, no amount of scrubbing and soaking and masking could make it go away. I would say that it was likely that dg had a full disposable suit.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I think the remains were dumped in whatever form, very quickly after leaving the Liknes home. As I have said before, the risk of being caught transporting human remains would have prevented the suspect from being in possession of them any longer than necessary. If he was burning anything on his property, it was his clothing and any other evidence.

That doesn't quite make sense if you put yourself in the perp's mind... there is no reason to take the bodies just to dump them elsewhere whole, so they can easily be found. The only reason to take the bodies... and risk completely contaminating your vehicle, as well as being discovered with them, is to make them disappear in an attempt to get away with murder completely... by making it impossible for LE to even determine if it was murder.

If there was a plan, chances are, the plan included having all sorts of time to break 2 bodies down to nothing on your private property with no one around. Given that you probably knew they were leaving the country soon, a complete disappearance means LE is chasing all sorts of red herrings from bad business partners, to staging their own disappearance.

If you didn't consider the possibly for a camera picture, what would tie you to them? Would anyone remember the patent dispute enough to point it out to LE? How low on the priority list would it be to investigate a "minor" patent disagreement from years past?

With the unexpected 3rd victim, chances are the original plan would have still been followed through with, especially in a panic. You are not going to get very far to a hopeful dumpsite for 3 complete bodies the night of the incident.

 

[news.talk]

That doesn't quite make sense if you put yourself in the perp's mind... there is no reason to take the bodies just to dump them elsewhere whole, so they can easily be found. The only reason to take the bodies... and risk completely contaminating your vehicle, as well as being discovered with them, is to make them disappear in an attempt to get away with murder completely... by making it impossible for LE to even determine if it was murder.

If there was a plan, chances are, the plan included having all sorts of time to break 2 bodies down to nothing on your private property with no one around. Given that you probably knew they were leaving the country soon, a complete disappearance means LE is chasing all sorts of red herrings from bad business partners, to staging their own disappearance.

If you didn't consider the possibly for a camera picture, what would tie you to them? Would anyone remember the patent dispute enough to point it out to LE? How low on the priority list would it be to investigate a "minor" patent disagreement from years past?

With the unexpected 3rd victim, chances are the original plan would have still been followed through with, especially in a panic. You are not going to get very far to a hopeful dumpsite for 3 complete bodies the night of the incident.

What your saying makes complete sense. I just don't think the bodies were whole. I still maintain they were dismembered prior to transport and dumped away from the property. I can't see anyone traveling at any time day or night with three dead bodies in an open truck. Bagged in parts would make more sense. I also don't think anyone would take even a small chance to have the victim's DNA on ones own property. Water dumping is a common and fairly effective disposal method. He could have utilized Chestermere or even McDonald lake as they are both easily accessible between the two points. There must have been some evidence to point to a water dumping for LE to focus so much on the slough in Airdrie.

I guess I just look for the simplest answer as it is usually correct.

 

[wendiesan]

<snipped for brevity>

Thanks for that wendiesan. I'm still puzzled where the 2nd count of trafficking comes from as reported in MSM. Here's what we have in the timeline as taken from BC Court Records:

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ia-Maps-amp-Timeline*&p=10823808#post10823808



Note that there are 3 counts of possession of break-in instruments but only 1 count of trafficking and NO reference to the identity theft at all in the court records (only in the last para ^^ which is a summary of info I would have initially pulled from MSM, and presumably would be the "Charges of impersonation").

Where is that other drug charge ??

So far I found nothing other than what you've listed. Will try to get back to the computer tomorrow.

 

[Cherchri]

Maybe Alvin Garland is one of DG's alias' or...maybe AL and DG 'owned' the company together.

Are you sure you're not looking at AE transport in Garland, Texas? I went astray in some of my early searches not knowing there is a place called Garland. I also had Douglas fir garlands come up in many searches

 

[Krystine]

he may have moved it, then LE might have moved it, in which that would've been a major concern for DG if LE did.

I hear you, good stuff. And might well explain his need to return to the farm the first chance he had on the night of the hotel incident.
I recall reading and re-reading the media account of DG being found on a back porch/deck and although the wording wasn't clear, I decided it meant on the back porch of_his_home. Wish I had time to find it.

 

[Krystine]

What your saying makes complete sense. I just don't think the bodies were whole. I still maintain they were dismembered prior to transport and dumped away from the property. I can't see anyone traveling at any time day or night with three dead bodies in an open truck. Bagged in parts would make more sense. I also don't think anyone would take even a small chance to have the victim's DNA on ones own property. Water dumping is a common and fairly effective disposal method. He could have utilized Chestermere or even McDonald lake as they are both easily accessible between the two points. There must have been some evidence to point to a water dumping for LE to focus so much on the slough in Airdrie.

I guess I just look for the simplest answer as it is usually correct.

GRAPIC
Although I have only a small frame of reference, (dad had a slaughterhouse/butcher shop) it seems to me that murder and dismembering 3 bodies is a lot of "work" in a 12 hour time frame. Given the slippery mess of blood and other excretions. Sorry, I know it seems disrespectful to the deceased to even go there.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

What your saying makes complete sense. I just don't think the bodies were whole. I still maintain they were dismembered prior to transport and dumped away from the property. I can't see anyone traveling at any time day or night with three dead bodies in an open truck. Bagged in parts would make more sense. I also don't think anyone would take even a small chance to have the victim's DNA on ones own property. Water dumping is a common and fairly effective disposal method. He could have utilized Chestermere or even McDonald lake as they are both easily accessible between the two points. There must have been some evidence to point to a water dumping for LE to focus so much on the slough in Airdrie.

I guess I just look for the simplest answer as it is usually correct.

I think the thorough search of the slough and the area around the acreage points more to evidence of the victims at the acreage, and evidence of some sort of preparation for disposal. I go back to LE saying that the volunteer searchers don't know what they are looking for.

Along with the motive for the murders, there has to be a motive for the removal of the bodies. Think back to all the discussions about the difficulties just lifting bodies, let alone dismembering, and bagging on site. Why? What is the reward for taking the risk? So parts can be discovered across town? You are only creating more evidence for LE to focus on... they'd ask the public if they saw anything out of the ordinary at that location. You'd be better off just leaving them there, and leaving the scene ASAP. No DNA in the truck or on clothes, no witnesses... bodies still discovered, and nothing to tie you to it.

If the sole purpose was to kill them, there would be no reason to take them with you. There was a purpose for taking them. To assume you'd have time to dismember, properly bag with weights and enough plastic that wouldn't tear or deteriorate in water seems like a discouraging scenario during the planning phase, rather than an efficient, that's a great idea type of plan.

How would you dismember quickly, cleanly and quietly? With an axe? Power tools? How do you break down a head, pelvis, and torso? The realities are staggering... the amount of blood everywhere, including on yourself would be enormous... have you ever chopped through a piece of wood the size of a femur? It's not a simple task...

To me, the risk / reward isn't there, and just no motive for a point A to point B site swap.

 

[Krystine]

when I worked at the slaughterhouse, not all the animals were fresh, sometimes they were at the turning stage. there is fresh carrion smell and then there is the other smell. scent is interesting, one cannot just smell a scent but taste it pending the turning stage, and it clings to everything, your hair, your shirt, your skin, your everything. there were days that I felt as if it were penetrating my skin like a permanent scent tattoo, no amount of scrubbing and soaking and masking could make it go away. I would say that it was likely that dg had a full disposable suit.

In the 90's I worked as a volunteer with Edmonton Police Victim Services. Training included a trip to the morgue. I know exactly what you are referring to,...I was SO upset when a vault was opened and that scent you speak of emerged. I also felt like I could not get out of there fast enough, and many many years later, it still makes me physically sick when I think about it. I wish I could forget that field trip.
And I am not ordinarily a very squeamish person.
When I think of murder and dismemberment, and 'dealing with' the deceased, I can never imagine any killer actually having the stomach for it.

 

[otto]

yes this is true, in dry season. in wet season it is not uncommon to see brush piles being burned. and once again, not everyone refer to the bylaws when they need stuff done.

What area are you referring to when discussing open prairie fires?

 

[Krystine]

Yes, I see your points It was just a hypothetical in response to a question SL asked earlier. Just brainstorming.
I actually don't think DG buried anyone, anywhere, and certainly not using a bobcat.
If he did, his first big mistake would be starting the thing up, they're pretty noisy. His second would be either putting the bodies in the bucket or strapping them to the roof (no disrespect intended) to transport them...be it to a construction site or farmers field. IMO, the cab would be too small for everyone to fit. Also, LE likely would've hauled the bobcat away for investigation and forensic testing.
No...I think that DG would've been extra quiet and extra invisible while carrying the rest of his plan out. He wouldn't have drawn any attention to himself at all...just like at the Liknes house. Verrrrry quiet.

This began with stanlaurel's thought about a piece of equipment (backhoe or front end loader) in an areal pic on the Garland farm, and him posing the question of a pre-dug gravesite. I can identify with that reasoning, that's what a farmer does, he uses implements to dig his holes.
How in the world do you leap from that to the accused strapping them to the roof?? or riding with them in the cab??
Do you know that LE didn't haul the equipment away?? Have you been by to check?
Sometimes I'm sure you're just kidding around, but apparently not...

 

[otto]

Ahh...you are thinking LE moved the greenhouse. I was thinking you meant DG moved it, assuming to hide the remains. He would have had time, with his parents camping in the first part of July.

How would he moved the greenhouse? Isn't it a building that is about 12'x6' and filled with what appear to be tomato plants?

 

[otto]

While "burning livestock and animals" is not permitted, he'd only have to have a fire permit to substantiate any burning on his property. Not like this guy would adhere to municipal bylaws after committing murder.

Here's the Rocky View Fire Services Bylaw:

http://www.rockyview.ca/Portals/0/Files/Government/Bylaws/C-7140-2012-Fire-Services-Bylaw.pdf

Section 11:11 relates to burning which does not require a permit (incinerator, bbq, fire pit .. with conditions specified; also Section 12:4).

A fire permit would only be trumped by an actual Fire Ban.

Burning barrel, firepit and BBQ are all contained fires area. Animal carcasses don't fit into any of those contained fire areas. There is a burn pit on the property at the end of the tree line on the South edge of the property. Police set up tents over that burn pit and clearly they did not find bodies.

 

[Krystine]

How would he moved the greenhouse? Isn't it a building that is about 12'x6' and filled with what appear to be tomato plants?

With a tractor, or anything that can pull. It appears to be a lot bigger than 12 x 6.

 

[otto]

Also, another precaution is installing security cameras for new construction.

... like the security camera at the construction sight that captured Garland's truck on the night of the murders.

 

[otto]

With a tractor, or anything that can pull. It appears to be a lot bigger than 12 x 6.

If the greenhouse had been moved to put bodies in the ground, it would be obvious to everyone that walked around the building.

The bodies are not on the Airdrie acreage. The property was thoroughly searched for a couple of weeks. If the murder victims were there, or if there was any trace residue of them, they would have been found.

 

[Krystine]

If the greenhouse had been moved to put bodies in the ground, it would be obvious to everyone that walked around the building.

The bodies are not on the Airdrie acreage. The property was thoroughly searched for a couple of weeks. If the murder victims were there, or if there was any trace residue of them, they would have been found.

And perhaps it was obvious to LE. We don't know what will turn up as important, it's a discussion.

 

[otto]

And perhaps it was obvious to LE. We don't know what will turn up as important, it's a discussion.

The accused had three days to hide the bodies. Police collected bedding from the dump. Therefore, it's likely that there is a photo of the truck with bedding (wrapped around bodies) in the back of the truck. A neighbour told reporters that the accused was burning something around the time of the murder, and that the light was on in the greenhouse. Given that there was a light on in the greenhouse, we know that the greenhouse has electrical wiring ... so it was not moved. Police have said that the bodies are not on the acreage, so if something was burned, it was probably bedding or other clothing evidence.

The bodies are most likely somewhere in the countryside, like the woman that was found 16 km West of the Airdrie acreage long after she was put there. She was lying in a field, and found by two children wandering around the fields.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

This began with stanlaurel's thought about a piece of equipment (backhoe or front end loader) in an areal pic on the Garland farm, and him posing the question of a pre-dug gravesite. I can identify with that reasoning, that's what a farmer does, he uses implements to dig his holes.
How in the world do you leap from that to the accused strapping them to the roof?? or riding with them in the cab??
Do you know that LE didn't haul the equipment away?? Have you been by to check?
Sometimes I'm sure you're just kidding around, but apparently not...

Sometimes I am kidding around Sometimes I'm not. It's a big world out there, stranger things have happened than what we may think is a logical train of events.

Yes, this began with SL's thought about a piece of equipment noted on the Garland farm.
We somehow went from a pre-dug hole, to someone else mentioning transporting the bodies to the gravesite in the bucket of the bobcat.

How in the world do I go from this to that? I have a fertile imagination, which IMO, is a good thing when one is thinking of possibilities...if the idea and subsequent train of thought turn out to be ridiculous, then therefore it is obviously not a good idea, it is then scratched off the list of possibilities.

In respect to the hole not being pre-dug, and the bodies being transported to the grave dig, the only ways that the bodies could've been transported there on a bobcat would be either in the bucket, or strapped to the roof or somewhere else, as the bobcat cab would not be big enough for DG and 3 others.

Do I know that LE didn't haul the equipment away? No, I don't know that. I was simply deducing (as many do on the site) that it has not been taken away because it has not been mentioned on here and pretty much most of the bases of everything is covered.

Have I been by to check? No I have not been by to check. I live in Edmonton, I do not live in the area. I see no need to drive 3 hours to invade the privacy of the Garland family to check for a bobcat or frontend loader, when clearly, I can sit at my computer and be corrected by those on the site that are in-the-know and don't waste a single second pointing out how inappropriate others' thoughts and opinions are. I was actually counting on that premise.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I think the thorough search of the slough and the area around the acreage points more to evidence of the victims at the acreage, and evidence of some sort of preparation for disposal. I go back to LE saying that the volunteer searchers don't know what they are looking for.

Along with the motive for the murders, there has to be a motive for the removal of the bodies. Think back to all the discussions about the difficulties just lifting bodies, let alone dismembering, and bagging on site. Why? What is the reward for taking the risk? So parts can be discovered across town? You are only creating more evidence for LE to focus on... they'd ask the public if they saw anything out of the ordinary at that location. You'd be better off just leaving them there, and leaving the scene ASAP. No DNA in the truck or on clothes, no witnesses... bodies still discovered, and nothing to tie you to it.

If the sole purpose was to kill them, there would be no reason to take them with you. There was a purpose for taking them. To assume you'd have time to dismember, properly bag with weights and enough plastic that wouldn't tear or deteriorate in water seems like a discouraging scenario during the planning phase, rather than an efficient, that's a great idea type of plan.

How would you dismember quickly, cleanly and quietly? With an axe? Power tools? How do you break down a head, pelvis, and torso? The realities are staggering... the amount of blood everywhere, including on yourself would be enormous... have you ever chopped through a piece of wood the size of a femur? It's not a simple task...

To me, the risk / reward isn't there, and just no motive for a point A to point B site swap.

I completely agree Where did they go then? How did they get there? I suppose if this was an easy question to answer, LE would've found them by now.