Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Tinkerbel1]

Are you sure you're not looking at AE transport in Garland, Texas? I went astray in some of my early searches not knowing there is a place called Garland. I also had Douglas fir garlands come up in many searches

I wasn't looking at anything Cherchri, someone else had commented that they found a transport company in Texas that was AE Transport...apparently the A stands for AL's first name...is what I thought I read. I just shared a thought based on that comment that was posted. I did not sleuth the comment.

 

[Krystine]

The accused had three days to hide the bodies. Police collected bedding from the dump. Therefore, it's likely that there is a photo of the truck with bedding (wrapped around bodies) in the back of the truck. A neighbour told reporters that the accused was burning something around the time of the murder, and that the light was on in the greenhouse. Given that there was a light on in the greenhouse, we know that the greenhouse has electrical wiring ... so it was not moved. Police have said that the bodies are not on the acreage, so if something was burned, it was probably bedding or other clothing evidence.
The bodies are most likely somewhere in the countryside, like the woman that was found 16 km West of the Airdrie acreage long after she was put there. She was lying in a field, and found by two children wandering around the fields.

I'm not defending one theory over another, we don't have enough evidence to take a strong stand either way.
IMO>
Having said that, I think SL has a good point about the farm machinery/backhoe/front end loader. No one is ever going to check an implement like that for contents of the loader. Bodies or remnants of could be mixed/covered up with other materials, and someone digging in a ditch with a backhoe has instant credibility with locals. No questions asked, unless of course it's on someone else's property.
The light in the greenhouse could have come from a kerosene lamp or gas generator.
I agree, whatever was burned in the burning barrel was more likely clothing... the accused's?

 

[Cherchri]

I wasn't looking at anything Cherchri, someone else had commented that they found a transport company in Texas that was AE Transport...apparently the A stands for AL's first name...is what I thought I read. I just shared a thought based on that comment that was posted. I did not sleuth the comment.

Sorry I pulled the wrong quote. I think it was LL who was looking.

 

[Krystine]

Sometimes I am kidding around Sometimes I'm not. It's a big world out there, stranger things have happened than what we may think is a logical train of events.

Yes, this began with SL's thought about a piece of equipment noted on the Garland farm.
We somehow went from a pre-dug hole, to someone else mentioning transporting the bodies to the gravesite in the bucket of the bobcat.

How in the world do I go from this to that? I have a fertile imagination, which IMO, is a good thing when one is thinking of possibilities...if the idea and subsequent train of thought turn out to be ridiculous, then therefore it is obviously not a good idea, it is then scratched off the list of possibilities.

In respect to the hole not being pre-dug, and the bodies being transported to the grave dig, the only ways that the bodies could've been transported there on a bobcat would be either in the bucket, or strapped to the roof or somewhere else, as the bobcat cab would not be big enough for DG and 3 others.

Do I know that LE didn't haul the equipment away? No, I don't know that. I was simply deducing (as many do on the site) that it has not been taken away because it has not been mentioned on here and pretty much most of the bases of everything is covered.

Have I been by to check? No I have not been by to check. I live in Edmonton, I do not live in the area. I see no need to drive 3 hours to invade the privacy of the Garland family to check for a bobcat or frontend loader, when clearly, I can sit at my computer and be corrected by those on the site that are in-the-know and don't waste a single second pointing out how inappropriate others' thoughts and opinions are. I was actually counting on that premise.

We don't know what's pertinent, we are pretty much left to flop around and share our theories. It's what we signed up for here.
Not arguing the more outrageous thoughts and opinions any longer, it's counter productive and frankly a bit crazy-making.

 

[Slebby]

I think the remains were dumped in whatever form, very quickly after leaving the Liknes home. As I have said before, the risk of being caught transporting human remains would have prevented the suspect from being in possession of them any longer than necessary. If he was burning anything on his property, it was his clothing and any other evidence.

I agree with you 100%. Was it you who mentioned Occam's Razor a day or so ago? There is much speculation about dissolving bodies in acid, etc. but I believe the simplest explanation is the likeliest. IMO, that involves dumping the bodies very quickly so as not to be caught with them. The fact that they have not been found may be more due to luck on the part of the killer than anything else. I don't think he would bring bodies or any parts thereof back to his own property. There is no explaining that away. But dumped bodies found elsewhere, weeks or months later, LE still has a great deal of work to do to tie the bodies to DG.

And I agree, the burning refuse on the G property was possibly an extremely thorough incineration of incriminating clothing.

Because we don't know what evidence LE has to arrest DG for 3 murders, my guess is that DG's DNA may be mixed in with blood evidence at the crime scene, or maybe fingerprints that he thought were cleaned up? We simply can't know at this time what makes their case so strong, even without bodies.

Looking at DG's criminal record, there are a lot of ordinary property crimes. IMO, there has been a lot more criminal genius ascribed to him than I think is warranted based on his history. I think he has been nothing more than lucky.

IMHO

 

[Slebby]

Regarding why he took the bodies at all - I wonder if DG originally planned to make it look like the Ls had simply disappeared. Murder them, dump their bodies, come back to clean up and restore order to the L home. The body dump took longer than he expected, or he simply lost his nerve about returning to the L home.

Think what the next day might have been like if DG had taken the bodies then returned to clean up. If JO had come to an empty house, but no blood or other signs of a struggle, how long would it have taken before she called police? She might have assumed the grandparents had taken NO to the park or somewhere. By the time she called police, how soon would an Amber alert have been issued? Given that it seemed the boy was in the care of grandparents, no obvious evidence to suggest otherwise?

This isn't a theory I'm married to, just an idea to try to work out why he would bother to take the bodies.

IMO

 

[Slebby]

Thinking about taking the easiest and fastest method of dumping the bodies, along with reading a comment about the LE search of the landfill got me thinking up another theory on the body dump. We know LE searched the Spyhill landfill. What about landfills in other jurisdictions? What if DG drove to say, Red Deer, or Edmonton, or Medicine Hat, and tossed bodies or body parts into dumpsters? They could be well- wrapped in plastic, delaying any spread of decomp smell prior to being dumped in the local landfill.

Just an idea.

 

[wendiesan]

<snipped for brevity>

Thanks for that wendiesan. I'm still puzzled where the 2nd count of trafficking comes from as reported in MSM. Here's what we have in the timeline as taken from BC Court Records:

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ia-Maps-amp-Timeline*&p=10823808#post10823808

Note that there are 3 counts of possession of break-in instruments but only 1 count of trafficking and NO reference to the identity theft at all in the court records (only in the last para ^^ which is a summary of info I would have initially pulled from MSM, and presumably would be the "Charges of impersonation").

Where is that other drug charge ??

Hi SB
At the time of these offences there was no law that specifically dealt with identity theft. The new law was passed in October of 2009.

Under s. 402.1 of Bill S-4, which received royal assent in late October, identity information, "used alone or in combination with other information to identify or purport to identify an individual," includes name, address, date of birth and driver's licence number.

The new law makes it illegal to transmit, make available, distribute, sell or offer for sale another person's identity information, or possess such information for any of those purposes, "knowing that or being reckless as to whether the information will be used to commit an indictable offence that includes, fraud, deceit or falsehood as an element of the offence."

DG was charged under Section 354

41283-1-H 6 23-Oct-1992 CCC - 354 possession of property obtained by crime Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert

Section 354 of the Criminal Code describes the offence of possession of property obtained by crime. It states that a person is in possession of property obtained by crime if that person has the property in their room, their home (if the person does not share their home), in their car, or on themselves. Even if the original owner cannot be found or no owner can be identified, a person can still be charged. Also, where the act of theft and the possession of stolen goods are done at the same time, the person cannot be convicted of illegal possession of the same things. The punishment for being found guilty of this offence is the same as for fraud.

http://www.slsedmonton.com/criminal/theft-fraud-posession/
So, in the more detailed information presented at trial, the items which DG had in his possession might be described as resulting from a crime of identity theft even if the language of the charges does not indicate that particular kind of fraud, IMO.

Could things have changed between the time of the charges and sentencing through plea bargaining?

 

[LoisLane]

If the greenhouse had been moved to put bodies in the ground, it would be obvious to everyone that walked around the building.

The bodies are not on the Airdrie acreage. The property was thoroughly searched for a couple of weeks. If the murder victims were there, or if there was any trace residue of them, they would have been found.

Maybe it wasn't moved within the few days, but it could have been moved weeks before in preparation to dig it out, once this is done the greenhouse is placed back in position, grass has time to grow,etc. If anyone is under the greenhouse, possibly access could have been through a trapdoor such as the cutout in the floor and maybe all that would have to be done is fill the cut out in the floor with dirt.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I think the remains were dumped in whatever form, very quickly after leaving the Liknes home. As I have said before, the risk of being caught transporting human remains would have prevented the suspect from being in possession of them any longer than necessary. If he was burning anything on his property, it was his clothing and any other evidence.

I totally agree news.talk, I just think burning anything that's hard to break down would take too long and again - risk (like you say) factor of the unexpected (his parents coming home early, a neighbor dropping by, the police coming by for questioning, etc.). DG had no idea how much time he actually had, he didn't know if he'd have one day, fives days, months or years before LE came knocking with questions. Hypothetically, if he was arrogant to think he wouldn't be on the radar, then I could see him taking his time, but I think he kept it simple.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

That doesn't quite make sense if you put yourself in the perp's mind... there is no reason to take the bodies just to dump them elsewhere whole, so they can easily be found. The only reason to take the bodies... and risk completely contaminating your vehicle, as well as being discovered with them, is to make them disappear in an attempt to get away with murder completely... by making it impossible for LE to even determine if it was murder.

If there was a plan, chances are, the plan included having all sorts of time to break 2 bodies down to nothing on your private property with no one around. Given that you probably knew they were leaving the country soon, a complete disappearance means LE is chasing all sorts of red herrings from bad business partners, to staging their own disappearance.

If you didn't consider the possibly for a camera picture, what would tie you to them? Would anyone remember the patent dispute enough to point it out to LE? How low on the priority list would it be to investigate a "minor" patent disagreement from years past?

With the unexpected 3rd victim, chances are the original plan would have still been followed through with, especially in a panic. You are not going to get very far to a hopeful dumpsite for 3 complete bodies the night of the incident.

I'm thinking about what you're saying….if there was no camera and no truck, would DG have gotten away with it? The little patent dispute being long gone, would DG be on LE's radar? I originally thought he could've possibly gotten away with it, but now after reading us WS'ers findings I think LE would've connected the dots between AL and DG, as I think they've been in 'business' together doing *something* all these years. The fact that they both have these shell companies is no coincidence, and I think there's a connection (either with the companies or Mexico). DG might be intellectually smart, but he seems to lack street smarts IMO.

Also, a lot of us think this has been a premeditated plan for years since the patent dispute. If it turns out true that AL and DG has other successful under the radar business dealings all these years and things just recently got bad between them, maybe this was premeditated only recently, maybe in the last month before the estate sale, did things come to a boiling point. That doesn't give much time for thorough planning. Again, JMO.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Are you sure you're not looking at AE transport in Garland, Texas? I went astray in some of my early searches not knowing there is a place called Garland. I also had Douglas fir garlands come up in many searches

Tinkerbel1 is responding to one of my posts/google searches, where there is an AE Garland Trucking company located in Mineral Wells, Texas. Looks like a shell company and the company contact name is same first name as AL, but last name Garland, so initials of AEG. Very strange coincidence… since AL has links to Texas and DG has links to motor freights in the past.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

GRAPIC
Although I have only a small frame of reference, (dad had a slaughterhouse/butcher shop) it seems to me that murder and dismembering 3 bodies is a lot of "work" in a 12 hour time frame. Given the slippery mess of blood and other excretions. Sorry, I know it seems disrespectful to the deceased to even go there.

ITA - I'm one of the few on WS who don't think this happened also, WAY too much work and even with chemicals involved messy, messy, messy, work, work, work, too time consuming. JMO.

 

[bakerlady]

I have come to the conclusion that LE new immediately that one or more persons was killed in the Liknes home. They spent less time there then they did at DG's home AFAIK. The family knew they were deceased during the press conference IMO. It was necessary for them to do it tho per advice of LE, in order to help apprehend the suspect. I also believe LE specifically did not divulge all of the info about the blood and evidence of death to the public because they did not want them looking for dead bodies or tampering with evidence or freaking out about a possible serial killer type of thing.

I also don't think the bodies are or were on the acreage. Also in 3 days time DG could have traveled anywhere to dispose of the bodies, places where no one will be looking.

From where I live I could drive to Canada and back in 3 days, I could make it to Florida and Colorado, if I was so inclined. That is a lot of area and I don't think DG would be stupid enough to keep them close to home.

I also can't shake the idea of the drag marks from the side of the house being from a wheelbarrow, which could also help DG transport the bodies off road a bit, without becoming too fatigued. And we know he had a few wheelbarrows from the photos.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Regarding why he took the bodies at all - I wonder if DG originally planned to make it look like the Ls had simply disappeared. Murder them, dump their bodies, come back to clean up and restore order to the L home. The body dump took longer than he expected, or he simply lost his nerve about returning to the L home.

Think what the next day might have been like if DG had taken the bodies then returned to clean up. If JO had come to an empty house, but no blood or other signs of a struggle, how long would it have taken before she called police? She might have assumed the grandparents had taken NO to the park or somewhere. By the time she called police, how soon would an Amber alert have been issued? Given that it seemed the boy was in the care of grandparents, no obvious evidence to suggest otherwise?

This isn't a theory I'm married to, just an idea to try to work out why he would bother to take the bodies.

IMO

Agree, I think DG was counting on the estate sale as a distraction for LE and make it look like a voluntary disappearance of some sort from the couple. I can't get over the thought of NO who just happened to be there on that particular night, a mother's worst nightmare from one simple, everyday-like decision. So sad.

 

[Slebby]

Agree, I think DG was counting on the estate sale as a distraction for LE and make it look like a voluntary disappearance of some sort from the couple. I can't get over the thought of NO who just happened to be there on that particular night, a mother's worst nightmare from one simple, everyday-like decision. So sad.

Yes, the estate sale was a great red herring. 200 visitors through the house? All those potential suspects, all those fingerprints to sift through. Plus the planned move to Mexico? Maybe they skedaddled fast after the sale (yet the presence of the child made that scenario unlikely)
IMO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Thinking about taking the easiest and fastest method of dumping the bodies, along with reading a comment about the LE search of the landfill got me thinking up another theory on the body dump. We know LE searched the Spyhill landfill. What about landfills in other jurisdictions? What if DG drove to say, Red Deer, or Edmonton, or Medicine Hat, and tossed bodies or body parts into dumpsters? They could be well- wrapped in plastic, delaying any spread of decomp smell prior to being dumped in the local landfill.

Just an idea.

Thinking about your post, the fastest and easiest way without too much work or getting dirty (DNA cross-contamination). I wonder if landfills are too populated with people (workers) so they would notice this? I'm not sure how landfills work and have no idea, but I think they're manned and some other posters said they might have camera surveillance(?) so that might be tough&#8230;

So now I'm thinking of other 'quick and easy' ways...if fire was used let's say, is there somewhere someone could go and have a fire that wouldn't look suspicious that's also private be it rural or within city limits that no one would bat an eye at or deem suspicious? Although, I still think fire would take too long, the scent too attention-getting and too risky.

Then bodies of water come to mind. Seems semi-easy, all you have to worry about is weighing down right? DNA washes off, not sloppy. Would he put victims in a container or not? If so, what type of container wouldn't float that you could fill up and use filled container as a weigh down?

Just hypothesizing, I don't have a firm belief, although I'm veering towards water weirdly now, seems easiest. I think Stan Laurel said there's lots of big bodies of water in the vicinity also.

 

[winnnancy]

... like the security camera at the construction sight that captured Garland's truck on the night of the murders.

Did I miss something? Which construction site?

 

[Linike]

I'm not defending one theory over another, we don't have enough evidence to take a strong stand either way.
IMO>
Having said that, I think SL has a good point about the farm machinery/backhoe/front end loader. No one is ever going to check an implement like that for contents of the loader. Bodies or remnants of could be mixed/covered up with other materials, and someone digging in a ditch with a backhoe has instant credibility with locals. No questions asked, unless of course it's on someone else's property.
The light in the greenhouse could have come from a kerosene lamp or gas generator.
I agree, whatever was burned in the burning barrel was more likely clothing... the accused's?

He would not have been burning for the long time that he did - just to burn clothing.

 

[Slebby]

He would not have been burning for the long time that he did - just to burn clothing.

Well he may have been burning the living day lights out of his clothes, any rags he used for clean up, perhaps bedding he used to wrap the victims. Or maybe he burned evidence with some regular household waste, obvious items like cans or foil that would not burn completely, to make the burn seem like an innocent garbage disposal method.