Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Hypothetical here, but I wonder if pendulum could swing the other way and if those old documents and old diagnosis's were allowed to be used for the O'Brien and Liknes families to sue the psychiatrists that previously deemed or diagnosed(?) DM a 'non-violent threat'. Just a thought of course.

I do believe parole board members have a level of immunity with their decisions unless they somehow acted in bad faith.

 

[otto]

Hypothetical here, but I wonder if pendulum could swing the other way and if those old documents and old diagnosis's were allowed to be used for the O'Brien and Liknes families to sue the psychiatrists that previously deemed or diagnosed(?) DM a 'non-violent threat'. Just a thought of course.

In the US, I'm sure that would happen. In Canada, I don't think so.

 

[otto]

Good points to think about for sure! I wonder who verified his ADHD.

That's a good question. I wonder if he simply claimed that he had ADHD in order to prey on the Judge's sympathy. He also claimed that he was in a vehicle accident and that's why he left university ... omitting the fact that he was expelled for cheating.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I don't want to debate mental health issues, since none of us *really* know if DG has them or not, but ADD/ADHD is a controversial diagnosis as it is. Some psychologists/case workers don't believe in this diagnosis and feel it's a result of the times of technological/information overload, people not getting outside and the exercise as humans did in the past and such so more of social/environmental factors as opposed to having to be medicated on pharmaceuticals, however, those who actually have it would probably beg to differ.

Also, strangely France doesn't even really classify or medicate it the way North America does, and they only have a .5% diagnosis rate. It doesn't really matter, just thought I'd throw that interesting tidbit in as it's interesting!
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/201203/why-french-kids-dont-have-adhd

I wonder if DG was on medication and regularly seeing a psychiatrist which he should've been if he was indeed mentally ill. Wasn't that part of his probation way back when? Very curoius about this stuff.

Oh! Agreed! I don't think mental health issues should be debated. As you stated in your quote #477...[I]Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate and believer for those with mental health issues to get proper medical care and not pushed to the sidelines of society and wish there was more education in the world about it.
[/I]
According to court documents, DG does suffer with ADD. http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/1097024/who-is-triple-murder-suspect-douglas-garland/

Regardless if ADD/ADHD is a controversial diagnosis or not, it is a diagnosis that is recognized and made quite often here in Canada.
http://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/prb0017-e.htm
Medical diagnosis as to mental illness are made by Psychiatrists, not case workers or Psychologists (neither of the latter two deal with the physiological aspect of mental illness).

Absolutely agreed! If someone suffers with a mental illness, DG or otherwise, they should be on medication and regularly seen by a Psychiatrist, but, sadly again, such is not the case. Many, many North Americans go through life with mental illness undiagnosed, many self-medicating with drugs and alcohol to ease the suffering.

It may have been part of his probation way back, but again, sadly, not everyone follows up with their mental illness issues.

I'm comfortable with the very real possibility of DG having ADD. I feel that if we're looking at all things DG, then this should be a consideration as well. JMO

 

[news.talk]

Hypothetical here, but I wonder if pendulum could swing the other way and if those old documents and old diagnosis's were allowed to be used for the O'Brien and Liknes families to sue the psychiatrists that previously deemed or diagnosed(?) DM a 'non-violent threat'. Just a thought of course.

I have certainly wondered the same thing. If I was the judge that made that ruling, I would be beside myself!

I can't imagine what the judge in that case must be feeling after that ruling. Sadly, IIRC, judges in Canada have immunity in such lawsuits. They do the best they can with the evidence before them. They can't be held accountable for crimes outside the case they are preceding over.

 

[deugirtni]

Where did we get 'driving the backroads around Airdrie'? I thought someone said the security camera images of the green truck were taken just a short distance away from the L's residence?

Two 1991-93 green ford F150s in mint condition driving the backroads around Airdrie? I would be surprised if that were true.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

That's a good question. I wonder if he simply claimed that he had ADHD in order to prey on the Judge's sympathy. He also claimed that he was in a vehicle accident and that's why he left university ... omitting the fact that he was expelled for cheating.

He didn't claim the accident made him leave university.

"[2] Mr. Garland is in his mid-forties. He suffers from attention deficient disorder (ADD). It was clear that he was agitated throughout the trial, but it was also apparent that he was an intelligent individual. Mr. Garland attended medical school in Alberta for one year until he suffered a breakdown. He also seems to have been traumatized by causing what he described as a horrific accident due to falling asleep at the wheel."

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...2005/03/03/garland-v-m-n-r-2005-tcc-176.shtml

The only way to determine what the actual testimony was would be to order a transcript of the proceedings if they are available.

 

[otto]

Where did we get 'driving the backroads around Airdrie'? I thought someone said the security camera images of the green truck were taken just a short distance away from the L's residence?

I'm pretty sure that the comment I replied to about the topic stated that a similar truck was seen at 4:30AM early on July 4 on Hwy 12. Hwy 12 is no where near the Liknes property or the Airdrie acreage. The original comment was corrected to state July 4, rather than 5.

Here is the beginning of that discussion:

Not sure I'm allowed to post this or not….it's old news, just re-visiting….the area described in the other forum from a poster who saw the same truck said the truck was going Westbound on Hwy 12 at 4:30am in the morning on July 5th. Looking at maps, Hwy 12 goes right by Gull Lake. Hwy 2 from Airdrie goes right through Crossfield leads right up to Hwy 12 and if you go left (Westbound) you go right by Gull Lake.

Do any locals know the driving time? Seems far, but maps are deceiving. Anyone know about Gull Lake? Looks huge. Trying to think of areas he might've placed victims.

Here's a map of Hwy 12

 

[otto]

He didn't claim the accident made him leave university.

"[2] ** * Mr. Garland is in his mid-forties. He suffers from attention deficient disorder (ADD). It was clear that he was agitated throughout the trial, but it was also apparent that he was an intelligent individual. Mr. Garland attended medical school in Alberta for one year until he suffered a breakdown. He also seems to have been traumatized by causing what he described as a horrific accident due to falling asleep at the wheel."

The only way to determine what the actual testimony was would be to order a transcript of the proceedings if they are available.

Then he had a breakdown, was in a terrible vehicle accident, has ADHD ... and he forgot to mention that he is a liar, a cheater, and that he was expelled from the UofA in his third year of a BSc degree.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Then he had a breakdown, was in a terrible vehicle accident, has ADHD ... and he forgot to mention that he is a liar, a cheater, and that he was expelled from the UofA in his third year of a BSc degree.

Again, without the transcript, we don't know what he said for certain. He may have testified that he was breaking down and decided to cheat, or that he had a breakdown after getting caught cheating. The Judge's summary is just that... a summary.

I think testifying that he used a false SIN and fled to BC to avoid the RCMP after getting caught making amphetamines is actually admitting he is a liar and a cheater of the system. I don't see him hiding much there. He's not pulling the wool over they eyes of the court by possibly omitting that he cheated in school.

 

[otto]

Again, without the transcript, we don't know what he said for certain. He may have testified that he was breaking down and decided to cheat, or that he had a breakdown after getting caught cheating. The Judge's summary is just that... a summary.

There's no mention of cheating or being expelled from university in the documents related to cooking meth.

 

[LoisLane]

Again, without the transcript, we don't know what he said for certain. He may have testified that he was breaking down and decided to cheat, or that he had a breakdown after getting caught cheating. The Judge's summary is just that... a summary.

The court document that talks about his car accident and school is from the other court case where he was charged with the 'drug lab'. If anyone can recall the thread that this is posted in and re-post, that would be helpful. It seems difficult to find on the web now... Which I find peculiar.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

There's no mention of cheating or being expelled from university in the documents related to cooking meth.

I think testifying that he used a false SIN and fled to BC to avoid the RCMP after getting caught making amphetamines is actually admitting he is a liar and a cheater of the system. I don't see him hiding much there. He's not pulling the wool over they eyes of the court by possibly omitting that he cheated in school.

 

[otto]

Again, without the transcript, we don't know what he said for certain. He may have testified that he was breaking down and decided to cheat, or that he had a breakdown after getting caught cheating. The Judge's summary is just that... a summary.

I think testifying that he used a false SIN and fled to BC to avoid the RCMP after getting caught making amphetamines is actually admitting he is a liar and a cheater of the system. I don't see him hiding much there. He's not pulling the wool over they eyes of the court by possibly omitting that he cheated in school.

That's clearly a matter of opinion. Having fake ID & credentials versus expulsion from university for cheating ... for me, it's a big difference.

 

[news.talk]

I think testifying that he used a false SIN and fled to BC to avoid the RCMP after getting caught making amphetamines is actually admitting he is a liar and a cheater of the system. I don't see him hiding much there. He's not pulling the wool over they eyes of the court by possibly omitting that he cheated in school.

I agree. I also think this deception will play a big role as to bail.

Even defence counsel stated they would wait for discovery to determine whether they would be requesting bail. I would be VERY surprised if it was granted.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

That's clearly a matter of opinion. Having fake ID & credentials versus expulsion from university for cheating ... for me, it's a big difference.

Your original point was that he tried to use his ADD to gain sympathy from a judge, and hid the fact he cheated in school to somehow maintain credibility.

My point was that we don't know exactly what he testified to regarding the cheating, but we do know he testified that it was a false SIN he used, and that he fully admitted he fled the province to avoid prosecution for producing amphetamines.

If he omitted the cheating or not, I don't think it would've affected the judge either way, as he admitted to a lot worse and still won the case on it's merits, more or less.

 

[otto]

I agree. I also think this deception will play a big role as to bail.

Even defence counsel stated they would wait for discovery to determine whether they would be requesting bail. I would be VERY surprised if it was granted.

Are people that are charged with first degree mass murder released on bail?

 

[otto]

Your original point was that he tried to use his ADD to gain sympathy from a judge, and hid the fact he cheated in school to somehow maintain credibility.

My point was that we don't know exactly what he testified to regarding the cheating, but we do know he testified that it was a false SIN he used, and that he fully admitted he fled the province to avoid prosecution for producing amphetamines.

If he omitted the cheating or not, I don't think it would've affected the judge either way, as he admitted to a lot worse and still won the case on it's merits, more or less.

He claimed that he was in a vehicle accident that traumatized him, that he had ADHD, that he was so traumatized by something that he had a breakdown and left university in his 3rd year of a BSc degree, which he described as pre-med. How much of that is true? Was his "breakdown" a result of expulsion? Did he react inappropriately?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I agree. I also think this deception will play a big role as to bail.

Even defence counsel stated they would wait for discovery to determine whether they would be requesting bail. I would be VERY surprised if it was granted.

He was granted bail briefly on the identity theft charge, in spite of his flight history, however bail for first degree murder charges are rare. I'm not sure if there has been any when multiple counts were involved.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

He claimed that he was in a vehicle accident that traumatized him, that he had ADHD, that he was so traumatized by something that he had a breakdown and left university in his 3rd year of a BSc degree, which he described as pre-med. How much of that is true? Was his "breakdown" a result of expulsion? Did he react inappropriately?

Those details we do not know. It is entirely possible he began a "breakdown" and that's what lead to the alleged cheating... it's also plausible that getting caught caused a "breakdown".

These sort of things may be relevant at a future trial, as the "breakdown" will need to be defined. A "breakdown", especially on multiple occasions, suggests something more than just ADD/ADHD.