Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

[Tinkerbel1]

Didn't the prosecutor say that the defence would receive discovery the Tuesday after the last hearing? There's no reason to doubt him. Additionally, that is not the end of the disclosure, that's the beginning. Disclosure continues until the time of trial.

Can you confirm? As mentioned, he had already said there would be some available for the August 14th date which was not forthcoming. We have had this discussion all day yesterday. I was responding to another post, not re-hoeing the garden.

 

[Slebby]

I suppose so. Regarding the Parkhill crime scene ... If a gun was used, there will be shells or bullet holes. If a knife was used, there might be knife pattern marks somewhere at the scene. If an axe was used, there will be clear evidence in surrounding items. Blood spatter will also tell a story. What I'm saying is that with, or without, bodies, the scene will tell a story.

Just to add, it may be obvious that the 3 victims are dead without knowing exactly the cause of death. For example (GRAPHIC ALERT) if brain matter was found on a wall and DNA proved it belonged to one of the 3 victims. They can say such an injury is not survivable, without knowing if the victim was shot, or bludgeoned, for example.

IMHO

 

[otto]

Can you confirm? As mentioned, he had already said there would be some available for the August 14th date which was not forthcoming. We have had this discussion all day yesterday. I was responding to another post, not re-hoeing the garden.

If the question is: has the defence received disclosure? The answer is yes.

I remember it from a video clip after the August hearing, but there's also this:

Thursday, Aug 21, 2014
"“The police have done a great job getting a fair amount of disclosure ready for the defense. We just have to go through our final checks to make sure everything’s appropriate to go to them,” said Parker. “That should be done today (Aug. 14) or tomorrow (Aug. 15).”

“We’ve set the next date into September just to allow Mr. Ross to take an initial view of that disclosure and then we’ll in a better position to schedule the length of time for the next step, which is a preliminary inquiry,” he added."

http://www.airdriecityview.com/arti...es-o-brien-murder-case-makes-court-appearance

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Disclosure is not just handing over the pictures and documents. I can only speak to civil matters, but even in that process, every document has to be labeled, titled, and itemized for the other side. I can only imagine every picture LE took, with every little yellow number, that has to correspond to a sample, that has to correspond to a lab result, that has to show the location, time, date it was taken... and on and on... and that's just the pictures...from the house... from the acreage... from any vehicles...

Use your imagination for any bank records, phone records, video, witness statements... and on and on again...

"Voluminous" is just that. A hell of a lot.

Crown also said they expect a 6 to 8 month preliminary hearing, which means there will be a wait for court time before the 6 to 8 months even start. Given that multiple murder suspects don't usually get bail, everyone involved knows the suspect isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.

Thus, a week or two late, after the ESTIMATED date, with the initial disclosure is, again, basically a moot point.

My post was directly related to Shane Parker's comment. I understand the concept of disclosure and 'voluminous' amounts of documentation. Thank you very much for sharing it again.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If the question is: has the defence received disclosure? The answer is yes.

I remember it from a video clip after the August hearing, but there's also this:

Thursday, Aug 21, 2014
"“The police have done a great job getting a fair amount of disclosure ready for the defense. We just have to go through our final checks to make sure everything’s appropriate to go to them,” said Parker. “That should be done today (Aug. 14) or tomorrow (Aug. 15).”

“We’ve set the next date into September just to allow Mr. Ross to take an initial view of that disclosure and then we’ll in a better position to schedule the length of time for the next step, which is a preliminary inquiry,” he added."

http://www.airdriecityview.com/arti...es-o-brien-murder-case-makes-court-appearance

Excellent! Thanks!

 

[news.talk]

My post was directly related to Shane Parker's comment. I understand the concept of disclosure and 'voluminous' amounts of documentation. Thank you very much for sharing it again.

Help me understand your specific question.

What *specifically* do you want to know regarding disclosure?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Chances are, they don't know the cause of death.

In order to discus the reasons behind why they think the victims are deceased, they then would have to present their case.

If they find enough remains to determine a cause of death, they may or may not release the details depending on the goals of the investigation. If, hypothetically, LE had any inkling that there may be someone else involved, they may keep the cause of death to themselves for future investigative/interview/evidentiary purposes.

I think it's possible they may be able to decipher COD by the crime scene possibly by blood patterns and blood amounts. It may be obvious to LE when they walked in by what they saw or might not be. They might've know the type of weapon they were looking for by the way the crime scene was, but who knows, JMO.

ETA - looks like otto and Slebby commented with a similar one to mine, sorry for the repeat of info

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I don't think the accused expected that there would be surveillance cameras on the construction site at the end of the street. That couldn't have been anticipated. I haven't read that his truck was loud. It was described as old, but in excellent condition, or well maintained ... something like that. He didn't rent a vehicle to avoid the papertrail ... especially since he needed a truck, not a car. Additionally, there could be blood in the vehicle ... leading straight to him. It seems lower risk to use his own truck.

I think he pulled up in the driveway, which is why the stain on the sidewalk leads from the side door to the parking pad, and then stops.

If he had something for carrying the bodies, there wouldn't be a trail of recently cleaned up dark fluid on the sidewalk. If he used something like a wheelbarrow, it would have been seen in the photos.

The one thing that led police to the accused is the truck. If the multimillion dollar house at the end of the street had not been under construction, if the crew didn't install cameras, it's possible that police would not have photos, and then it could have been the perfect murder ... especially given the forensic soup caused by the estate sale.

I wonder if the neighborhood camera was the only link. I read in another forum (so might qualify as rumor and not sure I'm allowed to post) that on the morning it happened, a neighbor who lives 6-7 houses down heard an high-displacement, old truck rip around their corner that they informed police about, that's where I got the loud comment. So if there wasn't any camera, there might've been neighbors that noticed peculiar things like that in the neighborhood that night, although, I do firmly believe the camera catching the truck was a break through and a godsend.

And, you can rent pick up trucks, minivans, etc. and renting would've only been risky if he returned it (with fake ID, he could've torched it or something). Still renting would've been risky.

I'm not sure he pulled in the driveway with *his* truck, I'm torn on that... If he walked up - maybe he did use AL's truck to load them into and drive away while his green truck was parked elsewhere in the neighborhood. So his truck would've never been seen at the house at all.

I still wonder if/how DG knew the house next door was empty? If he heard that through the family grapevine that would be weird info to know if he was so-called estranged from his sister and her spouse (AL's son). Random thoughts, I still wonder about.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

why was his perp walk not down the parade route i wonder?

Don't you think it's the media that makes the circus? I mean, if the tree falls in the forest and no one's around does anybody hear or did it actually fall? lol, you know what I mean...

Lots of people charged might walk that same route in cuffs with LE, but no press around to make a spectacle is all I mean, we only saw the perp walk from the news coverage - no news, no perp walk to see. Playing devil's advocate here.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Anyone planning to attend next week? I will be there and would love to meet up with any web sleuths who may be attending - perhaps in the coffee shop in the courthouse, beforehand.

Keep us sleuthers posted Cherchri! I'm curious to hear what you think of it all

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Help me understand your specific question.

What *specifically* do you want to know regarding disclosure?

Thank you for asking...but I don't want to know anything, I simply added information to a quote by another poster who was responded to by someone else. Something that the person said didn't ring true, so I added my 2 cents in as support to the original post. I'm sorry, I don't know which post it was now, and I don't have the time to go back and look it up. It seems that sometimes when something is said, however innocuous, it snowballs, which is what I believe has happened here. I don't really want to have this discussion again, we had it all day yesterday. I am absolutely clear on the disclosure. But I thank you for your efforts.

 

[deugirtni]

This is the same exact thing that we've been asking about all along. Simple yes or no answer to: has disclosure been handed over to the accused yet?
That same quote was already posted. There is no answer there. There is only a statement that it is GOING to be handed over. No confirmation that it HAS in fact been handed over, any of it, some of it, nothing.
Sure they expected it to be handed over, but they expected it to be handed over, at least the bulk of what they had at the time, in time for DG's August court date, but it wasn't. Now they expected it to be handed over within 2 days of his August court date, but no word. That is all we're asking, did it happen yet, or not?
Now the conversation has become all about reasons why it takes so long, and their right to take so long, which isn't what the question was. I think we all understand that. It is only because it has been stated by LE and the prosecution that disclosure WOULD be handed over, that we are thinking it isn't such a huge deal to let the public know that yes, that actually took place.
And who is supposed to report on it, someone asked? If I were a reporter over there in Calgary, I'd be asking the question. So I would expect that important little one-liner report to come from news media. Someone somewhere.
How can it be true that an accused person can sit, rotting in jail, for ....... months..... without even knowing what evidence brought him there? To be complacent about not receiving the disclosure is like being a saint, IMOO. It is funny how silly little things matter, if we consider someone to be innocent, rather than guilty.

Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
If the question is: has the defence received disclosure? The answer is yes.

I remember it from a video clip after the August hearing, but there's also this:

Thursday, Aug 21, 2014
"“The police have done a great job getting a fair amount of disclosure ready for the defense. We just have to go through our final checks to make sure everything’s appropriate to go to them,” said Parker. “That should be done today (Aug. 14) or tomorrow (Aug. 15).”

“We’ve set the next date into September just to allow Mr. Ross to take an initial view of that disclosure and then we’ll in a better position to schedule the length of time for the next step, which is a preliminary inquiry,” he added."

Excellent! Thanks!

 

[deugirtni]

Lucky you Cherchri! That would be fun to meet up with a fellow WS over there. I know I wont' be able to miss being at at least *some* of the court dates for the Bosma case in Hamilton.... in 2015 hopefully. I wonder how long DG will have to wait to have his day in court. And I can't believe the government pays for an 8 month preliminary hearing just to find out whether a trial is warranted. Wow. Thinking about the cost, it blows my mind. And yes, please keep us posted!

Keep us sleuthers posted Cherchri! I'm curious to hear what you think of it all

 

[LoisLane]

I wonder if the neighborhood camera was the only link. I read in another forum (so might qualify as rumor and not sure I'm allowed to post) that on the morning it happened, a neighbor who lives 6-7 houses down heard an high-displacement, old truck rip around their corner that they informed police about, that's where I got the loud comment. So if there wasn't any camera, there might've been neighbors that noticed peculiar things like that in the neighborhood that night, although, I do firmly believe the camera catching the truck was a break through and a godsend.

And, you can rent pick up trucks, minivans, etc. and renting would've only been risky if he returned it (with fake ID, he could've torched it or something). Still renting would've been risky.

I'm not sure he pulled in the driveway with *his* truck, I'm torn on that... If he walked up - maybe he did use AL's truck to load them into and drive away while his green truck was parked elsewhere in the neighborhood. So his truck would've never been seen at the house at all.

I still wonder if/how DG knew the house next door was empty? If he heard that through the family grapevine that would be weird info to know if he was so-called estranged from his sister and her spouse (AL's son). Random thoughts, I still wonder about.

I have been wondering the same thing about how DG knew the families current affairs considering the relationship and the "bad blood". My theory is that although he may be estranged from his sister, his sister is probably in good standing with the parents (Garlands), particularly her mother. I assume that they have regular conversation about their lives and that would have included things such as a condo purchase, her in-laws moving, business problems, etc. Perhaps DG's mother relays information about his sister in an attempt to keep him informed of his sister in spite of the quarrel or disconnection they have and with good intent. KL could have also been in contact with DG's mother leading up to the move for small talk or a courtesy good-bye before the planned move from Calgary.

I know from my own experience that when a sibling or parent is not speaking with a child or what have you that somehow the topic of the person is still open for discussion which I perceive as quite normal and from my point of view is an attempt to keep the cords of the family in tact with hope of one day a resolution and a connection.

I am also curious of the neighbour and the claim of the loud truck. I want to spend some time on that to look at the location of the truck from the photo in relation to the house and count 6-7 doors down and see where that neighbour could have been in relation to the street. I wonder if this person is on 38A Ave. or around the corner.

I also am not sure of the truck and whether AL's truck was used. I think that if it was used as part of the crime it would have been removed permanently from the property but I don't know how that works.

On a side note I just heard the other day a friend who lives in Stanley Park was all excited because the Google car was driving down her street and she wondered how long it would be until an updated version of her renovated house would take to be uploaded. I keep meaning to check if the Liknes home was included.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

This is the same exact thing that we've been asking about all along. Simple yes or no answer to: has disclosure been handed over to the accused yet?
That same quote was already posted. There is no answer there. There is only a statement that it is GOING to be handed over. No confirmation that it HAS in fact been handed over, any of it, some of it, nothing.
Sure they expected it to be handed over, but they expected it to be handed over, at least the bulk of what they had at the time, in time for DG's August court date, but it wasn't. Now they expected it to be handed over within 2 days of his August court date, but no word. That is all we're asking, did it happen yet, or not?
Now the conversation has become all about reasons why it takes so long, and their right to take so long, which isn't what the question was. I think we all understand that. It is only because it has been stated by LE and the prosecution that disclosure WOULD be handed over, that we are thinking it isn't such a huge deal to let the public know that yes, that actually took place.
And who is supposed to report on it, someone asked? If I were a reporter over there in Calgary, I'd be asking the question. So I would expect that important little one-liner report to come from news media. Someone somewhere.
How can it be true that an accused person can sit, rotting in jail, for ....... months..... without even knowing what evidence brought him there? To be complacent about not receiving the disclosure is like being a saint, IMOO. It is funny how silly little things matter, if we consider someone to be innocent, rather than guilty.

Innocence or guilt has nothing to do with the speed of the court process. It is slow, and scheduled no matter how much one dislikes it.

Had they received the disclosure at day 22 of the 30, it would not have made a lick of difference. The court appearance would have been the same date, and the defence most likely would have asked for time to review the evidence, and received the exact same date to appear again that they currently have.

In an ideal world, the truth always wins and the truth is always told, so issues like murder can be dealt with almost immediately. Currently, that is not the case, so once you have been formally charged, the process takes as long as it takes.

 

[deugirtni]

Did AL's truck get returned to the property after they had it taken away?

........ I also am not sure of the truck and whether AL's truck was used. I think that if it was used as part of the crime it would have been removed permanently from the property but I don't know how that works..........

 

[LoisLane]

Did AL's truck get returned to the property after they had it taken away?

I don't know.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have been wondering the same thing about how DG knew the families current affairs considering the relationship and the "bad blood". My theory is that although he may be estranged from his sister, his sister is probably in good standing with the parents (Garlands), particularly her mother. I assume that they have regular conversation about their lives and that would have included things such as a condo purchase, her in-laws moving, business problems, etc. Perhaps DG's mother relays information about his sister in an attempt to keep him informed of his sister in spite of the quarrel or disconnection they have and with good intent. KL could have also been in contact with DG's mother leading up to the move for small talk or a courtesy good-bye before the planned move from Calgary.

I know from my own experience that when a sibling or parent is not speaking with a child or what have you that somehow the topic of the person is still open for discussion which I perceive as quite normal and from my point of view is an attempt to keep the cords of the family in tact with hope of one day a resolution and a connection.

I am also curious of the neighbour and the claim of the loud truck. I want to spend some time on that to look at the location of the truck from the photo in relation to the house and count 6-7 doors down and see where that neighbour could have been in relation to the street. I wonder if this person is on 38A Ave. or around the corner.

I also am not sure of the truck and whether AL's truck was used. I think that if it was used as part of the crime it would have been removed permanently from the property but I don't know how that works.

On a side note I just heard the other day a friend who lives in Stanley Park was all excited because the Google car was driving down her street and she wondered how long it would be until an updated version of her renovated house would take to be uploaded. I keep meaning to check if the Liknes home was included.

An interesting point you mention LL, I never even thought of - whether KL had a relationship with PG's parents. I wonder if they were friendly with each other or never met? Maybe all three couples went in on the Mexico condo (that leaves DG out maybe). And yes, agree, like you say, the topic of conversations and family gossip gets around, so maybe no big surprise DG knew the house next door was empty.

The neighbor commented that the picture is taken (truck photo released to public) from the corner infront of their house (that the truck sped around). Hopefully that helps

Yeah, I'm unsure about AL's truck being used too. If there was evidence they would take a seat out or cut the upholstery out, not keep the whole truck, but regardless I'm on the fence there too.

It's crazy what Google's done, Google Earth, who would've thought hey?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

For those curious as to whether any disclosure has been provided to the defence, please Google their contact information, call them directly, let them know who you are and why you want to know...

MSM also doesn't report on when the lawyers consult case histories, call court clerks to confirm details, purchase office supplies for the case and a whole host of other routine tasks associated with the case... because it's all just procedural.

 

[LoisLane]

Just driving around the neighborhood of 123-38A Avenue SW (courtesy of Google) and I would not be surprised if other homeowners in the area offered up video footage. That is a pretty swanky neighborhood, no expense spared style, and some would most likely include security surveillance.