Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #16

[Tinkerbel1]

I cross a winpet phone number which hasn't been reissued and found the number on a registry that also has winpet and some private sleuthing by another member (that I just read) brings an address to one of the directors office where several other companies he is associated with is. Tired, just drove 250 km's back from camping, I wish they'd outlaw those weird purpley blue headlights people have that always look like they're on high beams.

My CA office would just pay mine, then bill me for it when they did my annual accounting. But...you would think their accountants know what's going on with the business? Maybe it was the other partner(s)? Could they be hoping to resurrect the business? Not likely right? Too much money owed to Revenue Canada, etc. Hmmm, I have no idea who would pay that. Do we know for sure it's been paid? It may show as outstanding on the registries accounts. Just thinking out loud.

Hope you had a great camping trip Stan, weather has been awesome

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I think DG could have planned to make this as quick and simple as possible...I don't think he dismembered bodies to move them (of course I may not want to think of that scenario) and as much as it could be possible to lift two deceased adults into a truck....I think it would be too much effort, and there is a risk of being seen. The idea the adults were placed in a barrel or ? and taken to the truck via a dolly...possible..if he was seen...no one would question what he was doing...given AL and KL were moving. Another possibility, which has been suggested by myself and others is DG mortally wounded KL somehow and used NO as leverage to force AL to move KL to his truck and drive to another pre planned location, where the final act was carried out. Given there was an amber alert, I wonder too, if AL and NO were seen in a truck that night...obviously alive. DG must have had a place in mind to dump the victims....or possibly he carried out the plan in the truck at a pre planned location, returned to the farm and disposed of all the evidence by chemicals, burning...(try to avoid thinking of this particular scenario).....I don't think DG would have gone very far for disposal of the victims, or what was left.....why bother....he knows the area and most likely knows of several locations that are close yet removed from traffic of any kind.

I have a similar line of thinking as you - quick and simple, not as elaborate as we might think. And again, like you - I'm probably thinking this because I find the 'other ways' too hard to swallow and I'm probably just in denial about other methods for the victims and familie's sake.

I think he has a known, private spot that he might've used (IIRC Otto thought similar too, where is Otto these days?) to take them to (deceased or alive), and as you mentioned I'm sure he knew of lots having known the area well.

As for getting victims out of the house without suspicion, did AL play hockey or sports that required a large sports duffel bag? Maybe thats something from the movies though, I have no idea about sports equipment or how big stuff like that is. By the obit, sounds like AL liked adventure sports, he might've had stuff around for equipment that might have even been used.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I have a similar line of thinking as you - quick and simple, not as elaborate as we might think. And again, like you - I'm probably thinking this because I find the 'other ways' too hard to swallow and I'm probably just in denial about other methods for the victims and familie's sake.

I think he has a known, private spot that he might've used (IIRC Otto thought similar too, where is Otto these days?) to take them to (deceased or alive), and as you mentioned I'm sure he knew of lots having known the area well.

As for getting victims out of the house without suspicion, did AL play hockey or sports that required a large sports duffel bag? Maybe thats something from the movies though, I have no idea about sports equipment or how big stuff like that is. By the obit, sounds like AL liked adventure sports, he might've had stuff around for equipment that might have even been used.

Oh no...the duffel bag thing is not from the movies. Thomas Svekla transported Teresa Innes' body from High Prairie to his sister's house in Fort Saskatchewan in one. Worked quite well.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=1753.0

 

[stan laurel]

I agree....KL was a victim at the Parkhill home.....and yes the crime map throws my scenario off for sure. Maybe it was KL and NO in the home
and AL at a different location, as you say...matches the crime map for sure. Apologies...this was in response to Kaley...post #579....

is your avatar pic Egon Schiele or Lucien Freud?

 

[stan laurel]

Hey, are you able to do that also in reverse? ie if you have a numbered company, are you able to find out who owns it?

I just sleuth, I really don't have a clue what I'm doing when I do it,, seriously

 

[deugirtni]

In this case, there seems to have been many instances of about-faces, for lack of a better word right now. If anyone needs me to provide a link for any of these, let me know and I'll try to dig up, although I do find it very time consuming to search for things on here:
-LE said DG was not their only POI; then LE said DG was the sole POI
-LE said there was no reason to believe the 3 people were dead; then LE said all 3 people were murdered
-there was mass confusion and multiple statements made about where the Ls were moving to, even amongst immediate family members who should have known exactly what the plans were, since the Ls were selling off virtually everything they owned on that weekend; as I understand it from what I have read, everything was up for grabs
-ALJr was quoted as saying AL hadn't seen DG for 7 years since a business relationship ended, but that it had NOT ended on a bad note; then it was reported that DG and AL's working relationship had ended on a sour note, there was bad blood, etc.
-PG was reported as the common law wife of AL, the wife of AL, and the past tense of both of those
-it was reported that ALJr himself had not seen DG for 4 years, and it was also reported that ALJr had not seen DG since thanksgiving 2013, less than one year ago

[modsnip]The prosecution has stated themselves that the investigation will continue ongoing until the trial. And so if something comes to light during those years while we wait for trial, they are hopefully going to follow up on it and not just discard it because it doesn't jive with what they have already stated publicly. Things can change and they just might, and things aren't always black and white.

I believe that someone asked awhile back why I believed there was more than one perp; frankly, I have not divulged my own personal theory, mostly because I feel stifled. [modsnip] Personally I don't think there were 2 perps, and I also don't have DG as my #1 suspect either; I don't think anyone 'dissolved' the bodies and I don't think anyone cut up bodies at the L's home; but to each his own theory(ies), at least until we know the facts, which we absolutely don't know right now.

As much as I would like to put every ounce of faith in LE and just blindly accept that they have their one and only man, I'm having a difficult time with that in this case and it isn't making sense for me. So there have been times when LE, in this province or another province, have seemed to have tunnel vision, and times when innocents have been accused and spent time in prison, and I'm sorry if some are really tired of hearing about those rare cases, but they *have* been known to happen. And even if there is a case where an accused is arrested and spends time in jail awaiting trial only to be released due to insufficient evidence, the accused forever lives with the stigma and also the public believing that insufficient evidence for conviction isn't the same as not guilty. I'm not anti-police, I'm a law abiding citizen, and 99% of the time I agree with whatever LE is saying in any given case, but this time I just don't. And I apologize if that 'feeling' offends anyone, it is not meant to. I realize I'm in the very small minority here, so does that mean my thoughts are not welcome and I should leave? I can't help thinking about how it only takes one small clue to potentially break a case wide open. And sometimes a little clue can be sparked by opening our minds and ears to everyone's thoughts and not just those with whom we happen to agree.

 

[deugirtni]

By the way, I seem to recall awhile back that it *was* mentioned about a house across the street also being for sale.

 

[deugirtni]

There is something bugging me about those 'sidewalk' pics.. I'm sorry, I find it really difficult to find old posts, can someone please post the pic(s) of the sidewalk/door/side of the house again? Thanks!

 

[LoisLane]

As much as I would like to put every ounce of faith in LE and just blindly accept that they have their one and only man, I'm having a difficult time with that in this case and it isn't making sense for me. So there have been times when LE, in this province or another province, have seemed to have tunnel vision, and times when innocents have been accused and spent time in prison, and I'm sorry if some are really tired of hearing about those rare cases, but they *have* been known to happen. And even if there is a case where an accused is arrested and spends time in jail awaiting trial only to be released due to insufficient evidence, the accused forever lives with the stigma and also the public believing that insufficient evidence for conviction isn't the same as not guilty. I'm not anti-police, I'm a law abiding citizen, and 99% of the time I agree with whatever LE is saying in any given case, but this time I just don't. And I apologize if that 'feeling' offends anyone, it is not meant to. I realize I'm in the very small minority here, so does that mean my thoughts are not welcome and I should leave? I can't help thinking about how it only takes one small clue to potentially break a case wide open. And sometimes a little clue can be sparked by opening our minds and ears to everyone's thoughts and not just those with whom we happen to agree.

Wow! Thanks, I feel the same way. I will be searching all kinds of crazy and wonder why on earth I am doing this and my reasons are right up there with what you just said.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

In this case, there seems to have been many instances of about-faces, for lack of a better word right now. If anyone needs me to provide a link for any of these, let me know and I'll try to dig up, although I do find it very time consuming to search for things on here:
-LE said DG was not their only POI; then LE said DG was the sole POI
-LE said there was no reason to believe the 3 people were dead; then LE said all 3 people were murdered
-there was mass confusion and multiple statements made about where the Ls were moving to, even amongst immediate family members who should have known exactly what the plans were, since the Ls were selling off virtually everything they owned on that weekend; as I understand it from what I have read, everything was up for grabs
-ALJr was quoted as saying AL hadn't seen DG for 7 years since a business relationship ended, but that it had NOT ended on a bad note; then it was reported that DG and AL's working relationship had ended on a sour note, there was bad blood, etc.
-PG was reported as the common law wife of AL, the wife of AL, and the past tense of both of those
-it was reported that ALJr himself had not seen DG for 4 years, and it was also reported that ALJr had not seen DG since thanksgiving 2013, less than one year ago

[modsnip] At the same time, very little evidence has been made public and DG is an accused who is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution has stated themselves that the investigation will continue ongoing until the trial. And so if something comes to light during those years while we wait for trial, they are hopefully going to follow up on it and not just discard it because it doesn't jive with what they have already stated publicly. Things can change and they just might, and things aren't always black and white.

I believe that someone asked awhile back why I believed there was more than one perp; frankly, I have not divulged my own personal theory, mostly because I feel stifled. [modsnip] Personally I don't think there were 2 perps, and I also don't have DG as my #1 suspect either; I don't think anyone 'dissolved' the bodies and I don't think anyone cut up bodies at the L's home; but to each his own theory(ies), at least until we know the facts, which we absolutely don't know right now.

As much as I would like to put every ounce of faith in LE and just blindly accept that they have their one and only man, I'm having a difficult time with that in this case and it isn't making sense for me. So there have been times when LE, in this province or another province, have seemed to have tunnel vision, and times when innocents have been accused and spent time in prison, and I'm sorry if some are really tired of hearing about those rare cases, but they *have* been known to happen. And even if there is a case where an accused is arrested and spends time in jail awaiting trial only to be released due to insufficient evidence, the accused forever lives with the stigma and also the public believing that insufficient evidence for conviction isn't the same as not guilty. I'm not anti-police, I'm a law abiding citizen, and 99% of the time I agree with whatever LE is saying in any given case, but this time I just don't. And I apologize if that 'feeling' offends anyone, it is not meant to. I realize I'm in the very small minority here, so does that mean my thoughts are not welcome and I should leave? I can't help thinking about how it only takes one small clue to potentially break a case wide open. And sometimes a little clue can be sparked by opening our minds and ears to everyone's thoughts and not just those with whom we happen to agree.

:goodpost: Hats off to you for sharing your thoughts, very well said! I'm of mostly the same opinion as you and have noticed the same discrepancies with the 'facts', as we know them. You are right, time will tell. Something still just doesn't sit right for me with all of this either. The puzzle seems to be getting put together well, but sometimes I can't help feeling like the finished product looks pretty close to the picture, but like there's an end that seems short or something...you know...when there's some missing pieces and you put the rest together with a hammer to make them fit? Picture still looks about right, but there's just something missing. Hopefully it will all get figured out sooner rather than later. JMO

 

[stan laurel]

Yes, interesting points. If the house was unbearably hot and no air conditioning they could also be spending summer evenings sleeping in the basement. The basement is the coolest option on hot summer nights. Mosquitos are awful in Alberta so screens on windows are typical. The house is older and may not have air conditioning, a lot of homes in AB don't or they are an afterthought and placed in windows so maybe the master bedroom would have it. They can also have the full meal deal a/c but that would be expensive to cool the whole house, I will take a look at the pics of the home and see if a unit is on the side or behind the house. They are loud and if neighbours are running them it would muffle a lot of different sounds from outside.

oddly enough, the real warm weather started a day or two later,, it wasn't cold nor hot that night, cool but not sultry? too tired to find the word.

 

[stan laurel]

Who was it again who didn't know what Y fronts are? I don't think Calvin Klein has a Y front line! Does he?

I always called that type of underwear a puppet show kind.

 

[stan laurel]

And to add in agreement, if we theorize DG might be meticulous (truck is mint, the acreage well kept, etc.) maybe he wouldn't want to get so dirty by this method. Gun use is 'less personal' and not so hands on also, if the murderer is cowardly but passive aggressive, a gun might suit him more.

wouldn't even need a bullet of lead,, a 22 blank or a 22 tipped with salt will kill you at close range and it isn't really loud either,, more of a loud snap than a bang. I would suspect that the G's had a 22 for coyotes and such.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm thinking it was a carefully premeditated plan (even if the accused only learned of the estate sale a day before). That includes perfect timing (the move, the sale, the long weekend) and a precise plan to get in and out before dawn, when the world starts to turn again and someone might show up. I'm positive all of the tools and what have you would be in the back of the truck. And the moving truck scenario would be a perfect foil for transporting bodies.

But, on the flip side...

Why was it ultimately considered a better plan to remove the bodies from the scene? We know now that the scene held a lot of blood evidence. There was no way anyone would think the couple simply decided to go into hiding. ~

Did the intention to kill the victims and leave change during the act? There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason, IMO to removing the bodies from the scene. I don't believe the accused is naive enough to think no bodies = no case against him. He is a lot more wylie than that, and knows the law inside out. (I don't doubt he is educating himself further as he sits in remand).

Did some crazy paranoia fuelled by a hormonal/adrenaline rush make him decide to remove the victims, or was that Plan A to begin with?
Did he become traumatized during the act of murder, and perhaps get derailed about the best thing to do?


It seems like a 'simple' murder plan became very complicated.

You know this is quite a really good point. I'm going to do point form, so I'm less long-winded! I'm basically reviewing what you said and adding pros and cons (for my brain to wrap around). Reasons for body removal in this case:

1. To look like victims 'ran away' to Mexico after business bankruptcy: this wouldn't be a reason, since even with gun, tire iron, or object - blood would be left behind to show a crime took place.

2. Bodies hold heavy forensic evidence - victims and perp: Body taken so suspect's DNA isn't found on body. This *may* be used in a plan depending on the weapon used. Gun - yes, you're distant enough. Knife - probably not, if perp gets cut DNA can be left. Tire iron/heavy object - possibly, but they can slip out of one's hand also, but still possible. BUT - also risky as now that bodies are being transported so is DNA, it leaves a trail and follows the perp in a sense.

3. Trial evidence: If perp still thinks no bodies=not guilty. Could have been used as insurance and a 'just in case' if caught, to maybe leave a jury wonder if they're really deceased or cast some sort of reasonable doubt, or he might think it'll weaken the case without COD, or to use to barter in sentencing (I'll tell you where they are if you take time off). Krystine mentioned, he would know better than this.

4. It wasn't in original plan: as Krystine mentioned maybe he got derailed in the act? Maybe this was a spontaneous, last minute decision? Maybe with the presence of NO and someone injured, maybe he changed his mind, thought he could force them to leave with him alive and had a dilemma on his hands, and he'd figure out what to do later somewhere else.

5. We're missing something: Or there's another reason for this we're unaware of. Other ideas?

Krystine mentioned, this was premeditated. It seems more a risk to be driving around with 3 deceased people with you no matter what time a day, a cop can always pull you over for a crack in your window day or night. Are we missing something?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

wouldn't even need a bullet of lead,, a 22 blank or a 22 tipped with salt will kill you at close range and it isn't really loud either,, more of a loud snap than a bang. I would suspect that the G's had a 22 for coyotes and such.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does a 22 tipped with salt do to kill you? I've never heard of that. Just curious.

 

[stan laurel]

Yes, except I have trouble imagining how a human being could be moved with a fridge dolly. Given the flexibility.

in a trunk or the newer hockey bags,, just caught up on reading threads to this point,, they could have been removed in the carpet that was "lifted", which might explain the odd trail and scuffs on the sidewalk.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

In this case, there seems to have been many instances of about-faces, for lack of a better word right now. If anyone needs me to provide a link for any of these, let me know and I'll try to dig up, although I do find it very time consuming to search for things on here:
-LE said DG was not their only POI; then LE said DG was the sole POI
-LE said there was no reason to believe the 3 people were dead; then LE said all 3 people were murdered
-there was mass confusion and multiple statements made about where the Ls were moving to, even amongst immediate family members who should have known exactly what the plans were, since the Ls were selling off virtually everything they owned on that weekend; as I understand it from what I have read, everything was up for grabs
-ALJr was quoted as saying AL hadn't seen DG for 7 years since a business relationship ended, but that it had NOT ended on a bad note; then it was reported that DG and AL's working relationship had ended on a sour note, there was bad blood, etc.
-PG was reported as the common law wife of AL, the wife of AL, and the past tense of both of those
-it was reported that ALJr himself had not seen DG for 4 years, and it was also reported that ALJr had not seen DG since thanksgiving 2013, less than one year ago

[modsnip] At the same time, very little evidence has been made public and DG is an accused who is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution has stated themselves that the investigation will continue ongoing until the trial. And so if something comes to light during those years while we wait for trial, they are hopefully going to follow up on it and not just discard it because it doesn't jive with what they have already stated publicly. Things can change and they just might, and things aren't always black and white.

I believe that someone asked awhile back why I believed there was more than one perp; frankly, I have not divulged my own personal theory, mostly because I feel stifled. [modsnip] Personally I don't think there were 2 perps, and I also don't have DG as my #1 suspect either; I don't think anyone 'dissolved' the bodies and I don't think anyone cut up bodies at the L's home; but to each his own theory(ies), at least until we know the facts, which we absolutely don't know right now.

As much as I would like to put every ounce of faith in LE and just blindly accept that they have their one and only man, I'm having a difficult time with that in this case and it isn't making sense for me. So there have been times when LE, in this province or another province, have seemed to have tunnel vision, and times when innocents have been accused and spent time in prison, and I'm sorry if some are really tired of hearing about those rare cases, but they *have* been known to happen. And even if there is a case where an accused is arrested and spends time in jail awaiting trial only to be released due to insufficient evidence, the accused forever lives with the stigma and also the public believing that insufficient evidence for conviction isn't the same as not guilty. I'm not anti-police, I'm a law abiding citizen, and 99% of the time I agree with whatever LE is saying in any given case, but this time I just don't. And I apologize if that 'feeling' offends anyone, it is not meant to. I realize I'm in the very small minority here, so does that mean my thoughts are not welcome and I should leave? I can't help thinking about how it only takes one small clue to potentially break a case wide open. And sometimes a little clue can be sparked by opening our minds and ears to everyone's thoughts and not just those with whom we happen to agree.

OMG! Someone gets it! Thank you... Thank you so very much!

 

[stan laurel]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does a 22 tipped with salt do to kill you? I've never heard of that. Just curious.

like I said, a blank (no tip at all will kill you) the velocity of the air alone from the muzzle/barrel will blow your skull/gut in. a salt tipped 22 will make a cleaner hole, disintegrate and dissolve simultaneously. a wad of wet paper will kill you, wax or as mentioned, at close range just the gas-off. salt/wet paper/wax would give you a bit of room to make either a kill shot or a blinding shot. sound is still not an issue with a suppressor or a blanket.

as for noise, the alwyth train yards can be heard for a long ways when they're joining cars,, just another ambient sound from the macleod "valley"

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

You know this is quite a really good point. I'm going to do point form, so I'm less long-winded! I'm basically reviewing what you said and adding pros and cons (for my brain to wrap around). Reasons for body removal in this case:

1. To look like victims 'ran away' to Mexico after business bankruptcy: this wouldn't be a reason, since even with gun, tire iron, or object - blood would be left behind to show a crime took place.

2. Bodies hold heavy forensic evidence - victims and perp: Body taken so suspect's DNA isn't found on body. This *may* be used in a plan depending on the weapon used. Gun - yes, you're distant enough. Knife - probably not, if perp gets cut DNA can be left. Tire iron/heavy object - possibly, but they can slip out of one's hand also, but still possible. BUT - also risky as now that bodies are being transported so is DNA, it leaves a trail and follows the perp in a sense.

3. Trial evidence: If perp still thinks no bodies=not guilty. Could have been used as insurance and a 'just in case' if caught, to maybe leave a jury wonder if they're really deceased or cast some sort of reasonable doubt, or he might think it'll weaken the case without COD, or to use to barter in sentencing (I'll tell you where they are if you take time off). Krystine mentioned, he would know better than this.

4. It wasn't in original plan: as Krystine mentioned maybe he got derailed in the act? Maybe this was a spontaneous, last minute decision? Maybe with the presence of NO and someone injured, maybe he changed his mind, thought he could force them to leave with him alive and had a dilemma on his hands, and he'd figure out what to do later somewhere else.

5. We're missing something: Or there's another reason for this we're unaware of. Other ideas?

Krystine mentioned, this was premeditated. It seems more a risk to be driving around with 3 deceased people with you no matter what time a day, a cop can always pull you over for a crack in your window day or night. Are we missing something?

Travis Vader was charged with the murder of the McCanns in May of 2012. The McCanns are still missing. Those charges were stayed on March 19 of this year in Edmonton, 3 hours north of Calgary and 3 months before the Liknes/O'Brien disappearance.

Possible inspiration?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

wouldn't even need a bullet of lead,, a 22 blank or a 22 tipped with salt will kill you at close range and it isn't really loud either,, more of a loud snap than a bang. I would suspect that the G's had a 22 for coyotes and such.

I pondered earlier in the thread if the Garland residence might've had a family firearm for the acreage or not.

I think it was LoriMcA (I hope I got the person right!) mentioned growing up on a farm, they had a family gun for the farm. I don't know if it's common for farm/rural land owners to have guns in Alberta? lol, I sound so ignorant as a BC'er and I even grew up in Alberta and met a coyote in my youth, geez….