Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[otto]

Yes, but at that time, did they know it was related to the crime, or were they simply marking and documenting anything that looked suspicious before it disappeared or became contaminated? How much does LE picture and test only to find out it is not related to the crime? They told MSM they didn't know if the marks were related. I'll find the quote...

It wouldn't surprise me if the crime scene markers leading from the bloody crime scene in the house to the driveway were placed there because they were part of a trail that started in the house.

"Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

Why are we trying so hard to claim that dark liquid drag marks from the house to the driveway are unrelated to the murders? What is the purpose? It's not like weren't talking about a plastic bag that was twisting on a branch, we're talking about a bloody crime scene where three people were murdered, and where there were dark liquid drag marks spanning 8 metres from the house to the driveway - and which then disappeared near the garage doors.

 

[LoisLane]

And maybe the drag stains are evidence marked with crime scene markers leading from the side door to the driveway.

Side door, okay. All the examples I mentioned could have happened at the side door as well. I could see someone fumbling with keys and dropping a grocery bag or case of liquids. Cleaning a cooler on the sidewalk close to the hose works as well.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It wouldn't surprise me if the crime scene markers leading from the bloody crime scene in the house to the driveway were placed there because they were part of a trail that started in the house.

"Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

Why are we trying so hard to claim that dark liquid drag marks from the house to the driveway are unrelated to the murders? What is the purpose? It's not like weren't talking about a plastic bag that was twisting on a branch, we're talking about a bloody crime scene where three people were murdered, and where there were dark liquid drag marks spanning 8 metres from the house to the driveway - and which then disappeared near the garage doors.

What's the purpose? It's a simple demonstration to those who claim that only the facts are important, that even their "facts" aren't solid, and they themselves are speculating.

 

[otto]

What's the purpose? It's a simple demonstration to those who claim that only the facts are important, that even their "facts" aren't solid, and they themselves are speculating.

Is the point that we don't know the facts? If so, that much is obvious. Is the point that police don't know the facts? Then I completely disagree.

I'm not going to pretend that the dark liquid drag marks from the side door of a bloody crime scene to the overhead garage door are an inexplicable coincidence of a spilled garbage bag. I'm going to take the facts that have been reported and try to understand these murders, keeping in mind that there was a three day estate sale up until shortly before Nathan's mother went home. Although it might be fun to ponder U-Hauls and camping trips, those are not facts that are related to these murders.

 

[LoisLane]

It wouldn't surprise me if the crime scene markers leading from the bloody crime scene in the house to the driveway were placed there because they were part of a trail that started in the house.

"Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

Why are we trying so hard to claim that dark liquid drag marks from the house to the driveway are unrelated to the murders? What is the purpose? It's not like weren't talking about a plastic bag that was twisting on a branch, we're talking about a bloody crime scene where three people were murdered, and where there were dark liquid drag marks spanning 8 metres from the house to the driveway - and which then disappeared near the garage doors.

It does sound very convincing Otto. For some reason I still question it. Why would investigators allow for those markers numbered 14 (IIRC) at a crime scene be published or photographed for that matter. I understand the fancy camera technology and the zoom-in feature so maybe it was a sneaky snap. But would those pieces of evidence being leaked to the public be potentially damaging to the integrity of the file? I think if blood was found in the home and it led to the outside and along the sidewalk that investigators would have closed that area off more than just police tape. Just a thought.

 

[otto]

Side door, okay. All the examples I mentioned could have happened at the side door as well. I could see someone fumbling with keys and dropping a grocery bag or case of liquids. Cleaning a cooler on the sidewalk close to the hose works as well.

All of this was going on at the same time as the estate sale? Who was doing it? Alvin, Kathryn, and Nathan were in the house at 10PM when Nathan's mom left. Kathryn was wearing pyjamas. They'd had 300 people at the house over three days, with no time to even remove the "come on in" sign. Did they leave grease garbage from the driveway to the side door on the ground during the estate sale? We need to keep the timeline in mind as well. Camping trip mess all over the sidewalk during an estate sale ... does that make sense?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Sorry but in order for there to be a wrongful prosecution, lots of people have to make lots of serious mistakes, and the system's checks and balances have to fail. Look at any of the famous wrongful prosecution cases in Canada, and you will see massive incompetence and covering. One person having a bad day doesn't lead to arresting the wrong guy, telling the public the case is solved when it isn't, and letting the real killers escape.

I find it a little strange how the posters who think the wrong guy's in jail are so reluctant to accept the corollary that if their theory's correct, the police work here is a massive fail.

After all the other suspects could be out there killing more people or kidnapping children...

If my theory is correct, I wouldn't be so rude as to slam LE...they still did, and I am sure, are still doing a remarkable job. Everyone does the best they can in any given moment. It wouldn't be their fault if they followed the logical route...sometimes things aren't always logical.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If we look at the crime scene markers, we can see that they lead sequentially from the house to the driveway, not the other way around.

Or so LE logically assumes.

 

[otto]

It does sound very convincing Otto. For some reason I still question it. Why would investigators allow for those markers numbered 14 (IIRC) at a crime scene be published or photographed for that matter. I understand the fancy camera technology and the zoom-in feature so maybe it was a sneaky snap. But would those pieces of evidence being leaked to the public be potentially damaging to the integrity of the file? I think if blood was found in the home and it led to the outside and along the sidewalk that investigators would have closed that area off more than just police tape. Just a thought.

I don't think it's so much that police allowed something to happen, but rather that media heard about the murders, raced to the scene, and started taking photos before police could keep the media away.

It's gruesome, but this is a crime scene where three people were murdered. The evidence that they were murdered is not the condition of their bodies, it's what was left behind at the Parkhill home. That evidence (bodily fluids, human tissue, bone fragments ... that's potentially what they found) led to the confirmation that people were murdered at the house.

I don't think photos of the dark liquid stains spanning 8 metres from the door to the driveway compromise the integrity of the case. What it tells us (when we're not trying to find unsubstantiated explanations for the dark liquid stains) is that the bodies were dragged out of the house to the truck. We already know that the bodies were removed, what we know now is that it was a very bloody scene and that bodily fluids stained the sidewalk. I'm sure that the area was closed off with crime scene tape, but one reporter from one newspaper managed to snap a shot before he was pushed back.

 

[otto]

If my theory is correct, I wouldn't be so rude as to slam LE...they still did, and I am sure, are still doing a remarkable job. Everyone does the best they can in any given moment. It wouldn't be their fault if they followed the logical route...sometimes things aren't always logical.

Murder investigations are logical. The investigation has to be logical if investigators expect a prosecutor to take them seriously and pursue the case.

 

[LoisLane]

All of this was going on at the same time as the estate sale? Who was doing it? Alvin, Kathryn, and Nathan were in the house at 10PM when Nathan's mom left. Kathryn was wearing pyjamas. They'd had 300 people at the house over three days, with no time to even remove the "come on in" sign. Did they leave grease garbage from the driveway to the side door on the ground during the estate sale? We need to keep the timeline in mind as well. Camping trip mess all over the sidewalk during an estate sale ... does that make sense?

It could make sense if JL still lived at home, he may be camping, he may have had a case of beer or maybe some guests who were visiting that night made a mess. They did have friends over we know that because CH was one of them. I took a photo of my relatives leaky garbage on her driveway and it was visible for 2 days after, maybe longer but I didn't go back again to look after my second visit. I didn't notice if a deep freeze was in the garage but maybe they had cleaned that out over the weekend, maybe the freezer was sold in the sale.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

All of this was going on at the same time as the estate sale? Who was doing it? Alvin, Kathryn, and Nathan were in the house at 10PM when Nathan's mom left. Kathryn was wearing pyjamas. They'd had 300 people at the house over three days, with no time to even remove the "come on in" sign. Did they leave grease garbage from the driveway to the side door on the ground during the estate sale? We need to keep the timeline in mind as well. Camping trip mess all over the sidewalk during an estate sale ... does that make sense?

So the sign being left up indicates they had no time from 8pm to 10pm to do anything but worry about the sale? What if it was just an oversight? How many people were there between 8 and 10 for the sale?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It could make sense if JL still lived at home, he may be camping, he may have had a case of beer or maybe some guests who were visiting that night made a mess. They did have friends over we know that because CH was one of them. I took a photo of my relatives leaky garbage on her driveway and it was visible for 2 days after, maybe longer but I didn't go back again to look after my second visit. I didn't notice if a deep freeze was in the garage but maybe they had cleaned that out over the weekend, maybe the freezer was sold in the sale.

What if it was just NO himself helping bring groceries in... trying to carry something too heavy like kids are apt to do, and just dragging it instead...

Some have speculated there may have been dismemberment at the house, so maybe the victims weren't even dragged at all.

It's all just speculation.

 

[otto]

It could make sense if JL still lived at home, he may be camping, he may have had a case of beer or maybe some guests who were visiting that night made a mess. They did have friends over we know that because CH was one of them. I took a photo of my relatives leaky garbage on her driveway and it was visible for 2 days after, maybe longer but I didn't go back again to look after my second visit. I didn't notice if a deep freeze was in the garage but maybe they had cleaned that out over the weekend, maybe the freezer was sold in the sale.

But the youngest child did not live with his parents, so why would be dragging messy camping equipment to his parents house after the garage sale ended and before the murders took place? Why would he make a huge dark liquid mess and leave it there? Furthermore, it was a long weekend and the murders happened two days before the end of the long weekend. If the youngest child (an adult in his 20s) was on a long weekend camping trip, he wasn't home at the time of the murders.

Does a broken case of beer leave dark liquid drag marks spanning 8 metres?

I've never heard of any friends that helped with the garage sale - only from neighbours that attended the sale and reported conflicting remarks made by the Liknes couple about moving to Mexico and up North.

The garbage bins are at the back of the house so no one had any reason to put garbage in the front yard. Furthermore, Calgary supplies large garbage bins to each house in the city, so no one leaves garbage bags lying around. They can put the garbage in the bin and wheel it away.

Perhaps there was a leaky freezer in the garage, but that doesn't explain the dark liquid from the driveway to the side door. Furthermore, if food was removed from the freezer and dragged to the side door leaving 25 feet of dark stains on the sidewalk, common sense dictates it should be dragged all the way to the garbage bins and not taken into the house.

 

[otto]

What if a horse was walking between the houses and left a mess.

Maybe that's what happened. One of the horses belonging to the CPS escaped, wandered into Parkhill, left a mess on the sidewalk, then wandered into the backyard to eat grass. That makes more sense than the drag marks being associated with the triple murder and bloody crime scene.

 

[otto]

Maybe Alvin changed the oil during the garage sale and then poured the old oil on the sidewalk leading to the side door.

 

[otto]

Maybe sap was leaking from the trees between the houses and stained the sidewalk with dark liquid.

 

[otto]

I hope I understand the nature of the discussion properly. It is about finding alternate explanations for the evidence, right?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

What if a horse was walking between the houses and left a mess.

Maybe that's what happened. One of the horses belonging to the CPS escaped, wandered into Parkhill, left a mess on the sidewalk, then wandered into the backyard to eat grass. That makes more sense than the drag marks being associated with the triple murder and bloody crime scene.

Is it likely the drag marks are related to the crime? Sure. Probably more likely than less.

Does anyone here know for sure? Nope. Can anyone say it's 100% for sure evidence? Nope.

It's not a fact the drag marks are anything suspicious at all, and if we are only going on the facts, then...

 

[news.talk]

Indeed. If the drag marks turn out to be grease stains from the garbage being taken out the evening before, then so much for it being evidence.

I have a feeling, that before marking with a crime scene number, swabs were taken to determine whether it is human blood - a very quick field test. From my understanding, forensics don't just mark every potential piece of evidence - only if it is determined to be relevant.