Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[deugirtni]

Wow, that is easier to read!

 

[Hez]

I think Tinkerbel1 has put forth an assumption that 11,200 strands of hair may have been left (perhaps 37.5 strands of hair per visitor if there were 300); if there were 300, why would you not think it likely that each person might drop at least 1 strand of hair?

Because 300 people aren't going to shed hair at exactly the same time (i.e., the short window of time in which they attended the sale). The likelihood of finding hairs that provide any forensic use is slim because they can land anywhere and are difficult to find in surfaces like grass, etc. Also, 11,200 strands of hair is a lot of hair, so I disgree with the assumption that that amount of hair strands could have been left by passerby.

 

[otto]

The house is also rather old, isn't it?? I don't think all houses came with access between garage/house at that time. Also, it seems to me that if there was a door inside the garage leading to the interior of the house, it would have been located right where that photograph is taken of LE looking at things on the shelf of the garage wall? Unless it is up closer toward the front of the house, but also, if the house were a split level, the garage may end up being between two levels of the house.

Does anyone know if that side exterior door belongs to the house, or to the garage?

The house is a straight forward split level with attached garage. An addition was put on the house (at some point) into the back yard. If there's no people door at the side of the house (and we haven't seen one in the photos), then there is a people door from the garage into the house.

If there's interest in floor plans, it's not a problem to finish building them.

I know what's going to happen here ... people will look at the attached description of the building and say "2 storey" ... that means it's a two storey and not a split level. Before jumping to that conclusion, it's important to understand that the city lists split levels as two storey buildings.

What we know from looking at this information is that the house was built in 1955, and that the room beneath the living room is 240 square metres.

Here's the website, where everyone can do their own search. Note that names on title are not available to the public: https://assessmentsearch.calgary.ca/login.aspx

 

[otto]

Before we have a repeat of the debate as to whether the addition on the back of the house was added after the house was built, here's the aerial shot from 1955. The source is the Public Library.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

BBM - You are assuming that each of those 300 people each left at least 1 hair behind while visiting the estate sale and I just don't think that is likely.

Lol...oh, trust me, it's more than likely. I'm a hairdresser.

 

[otto]

Probable house navigation

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Because 300 people aren't going to shed hair at exactly the same time (i.e., the short window of time in which they attended the sale). The likelihood of finding hairs that provide any forensic use is slim because they can land anywhere and are difficult to find in surfaces like grass, etc. Also, 11,200 strands of hair is a lot of hair, so I disgree with the assumption that that amount of hair strands could have been left by passerby.

No one said 11,200 strands of hair were left.

 

[otto]

Whether included in the criminal code (which uses language) or not, it is not specifically a legal term - it's plain English. An incident covers platitudes a struggle implies two or more people engaged in a battle/struggle. We cannot confirm or deny that a struggle took place. We simply don't know. As I said, if the victims were killed in their sleep there would not have been a struggle. If they were not, there may well have been a struggle. The bottom line is we do not know. LE would, therefore, be very careful in their choice of words and opt for "incident" or "crime" and not "struggle".

Violent Incident is one of the classifications in the criminal code. Criminal Code incidents are sub-divided into four major categories, and one of them is "Violent Incidents". Violent incidents is part of normal language, but it is also a classification of Reported Criminal Code Incidents.

Although the initial description of the criminal act may have been the criminal code term "violent incident", I think we've since learned, through multiple news articles, that there was a violent act at the crime scene. We don't know whether the sole assailant was able to overcome three victims simultaneously such that no one had a chance to struggle, but I can't see either of Nathan's grandparents doing nothing while the accused entered their home and murdered them. I think it's highly likely that there was a struggle; a violent one where two fit, healthy adults lost out to a 160 lb., 5'7" murderer. I'm not prepared to assume that the victims did nothing when they were attacked by a murderer simply because the initial report was that a "violent incident" occurred. We've since learned so much more than what we knew in the first two weeks of the investigation, and it shouldn't be problematic to update the understanding of what happened over time.

 

[otto]

Does anyone know where the number 200 and 300 came from? Who told LE there was 200-300 people in the house?

Maybe I'm naive about people wanting to get a deal - but really? That many people at an estate sale??? Seems like way too many if you ask me, I could see 50-100 tops.

It came from the family. Children and adults were included in the estimation that 200 people were at the leaving the country estate sale.

"About 200 people attended the Liknes’s estate sale June 29. They planned to go to Edmonton after the sale, followed by a trip to Mexico, where some of their family members own vacation property. After that, they intended to move to Edmonton, where they owned a home. The pair already sold their Calgary home and were leasing it back."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...person-case-released-on-bail/article19569011/

 

[otto]

I just had a thought. "Forensic experts continue to analyze evidence taken from the home...."
Key word being "continue"....there were somewhere around what? 300 people going through the Liknes home over that weekend due to the estate sale? There must have been fingerprints galore, footprints with possible "dirt, etc." present, strands of hair, garbage, cigarette butts outside (maybe), spit out gum, coffee cups, water bottles, etc. Anything that people who are basically "garage sailing" may be lugging along with them. These things are outings for a lot of people and they enjoy them, so it makes sense to me that there would be various possibly discarded items that police would have to collect. It's probably massive. It is normal for human beings to lose up to 150 strands of hair per day, so 300 x 150 = 45,000 strands of hair, and they would have to match them up to people. That would all be considered 'forensic evidence' as LE had no idea what they were looking for. How long would it take to get all of those tested? Lets say if there were even 1/4 of that, that's a LOT of possible evidence. Fingerprints are another story. How can anyone at this point determine specifics yet? Just wondering.

Police do need to place Garland in the home at the time of the murders. They must have found evidence of that, and it must have been confirmed, prior to his arrest. It's quite possible that the evidence is related to video surveillance. Police released two photos taken early in the evening, but they would also have photos taken after the murders occurred. The photos of the truck are taken under a street light by a camera that is placed on the second storey of the building across the street - giving a full view of the contents in the back of the truck. If there are three bodies in the back of the truck in later photos (which obviously would not be released to the media), and bedding from inside the house, that is sufficient to conclude that Garland is connected to the murders. I don't think it's necessary to analyse thousands of hairs.

There is probably more evidence from the Acreage, most likely along the lines of burning that bedding that was taken from the crime scene. How do we know that bedding was removed from the crime scene ... because police collected bedding from garbage dumps.

 

[otto]

I'm at a loss for where the tissue is. I just see what looks like blood concentrating in a chip in the sidewalk.

It looks like chunky blood to me ... not just a liquid.

 

[deugirtni]

That was me, quoting your calculation above, wherein you suggested that humans lose 150/day x 300 people = 45000 strands x 25% = 11,250

It is normal for human beings to lose up to 150 strands of hair per day, so 300 x 150 = 45,000 strands of hair, and they would have to match them up to people. That would all be considered 'forensic evidence' as LE had no idea what they were looking for. How long would it take to get all of those tested? Lets say if there were even 1/4 of that, that's a LOT of possible evidence.

No one said 11,200 strands of hair were left.

 

[deugirtni]

In your plans....
i)is that side door of the home a side door leading into the home, or a side door leading into the garage?
ii)does the garage have an interior door leading to the inside of the house?

The house is a straight forward split level with attached garage. An addition was put on the house (at some point) into the back yard. If there's no people door at the side of the house (and we haven't seen one in the photos), then there is a people door from the garage into the house.

If there's interest in floor plans, it's not a problem to finish building them.

I know what's going to happen here ... people will look at the attached description of the building and say "2 storey" ... that means it's a two storey and not a split level. Before jumping to that conclusion, it's important to understand that the city lists split levels as two storey buildings.

What we know from looking at this information is that the house was built in 1955, and that the room beneath the living room is 240 square metres.

Here's the website, where everyone can do their own search. Note that names on title are not available to the public: https://assessmentsearch.calgary.ca/login.aspx

 

[otto]

Regarding creating floor plans for crime scenes, I've done this many times over the years. It has always been a joint effort where many people contribute to producing the most accurate result. It has never been an experience of putting up a first draft that is met with criticism.

If anyone is interested, we can build accurate floorplans together.

 

[otto]

In your plans....
i)is that side door of the home a side door leading into the home, or a side door leading into the garage?
ii)does the garage have an interior door leading to the inside of the house?

In the plans that I put together so far, it is a side door going to the house and the assumption that there is an interior door connecting the garage to the house. I can easily modify the existing plans if we can confirm that the side door is a garage door.

One reason that I suspect that the side door leads to the house is that there is a screen door, and garage people doors never have a screen door.''

The garage would have a people door for entering the house via the garage.

Photo Ref: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news...n+They+subject+Amber+Alert/9992143/story.html

 

[deugirtni]

If Tinkerbel1's information is correct in that humans lose an average of 150 strands of hair per day, and we divide 1440 minutes in a day (24hrs x 60minutes) by 150 strands, that would be 1 strand every 10 minutes (that would be assuming of course that 150 strands are lost in equal time intervals, which of course they're not). Probably people would have spent at least 10 minutes browsing around, so it is possible that there would be one strand per person, unless my math is off (that would not be the first time!). Not to say that every hair would be valid for forensic use, but if LE wanted to establish that DG was present in the home, that would be a place to start (although his hair is pretty short, from what I recall). (Do short-haired people lose as much hair as long-haired people?)

BBM - You are assuming that each of those 300 people each left at least 1 hair behind while visiting the estate sale and I just don't think that is likely.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Violent Incident is one of the classifications in the criminal code. Criminal Code incidents are sub-divided into four major categories, and one of them is "Violent Incidents". Violent incidents is part of normal language, but it is also a classification of Reported Criminal Code Incidents.

Although the initial description of the criminal act may have been the criminal code term "violent incident", I think we've since learned, through multiple news articles, that there was a violent act at the crime scene. We don't know whether the sole assailant was able to overcome three victims simultaneously such that no one had a chance to struggle, but I can't see either of Nathan's grandparents doing nothing while the accused entered their home and murdered them. I think it's highly likely that there was a struggle; a violent one where two fit, healthy adults lost out to a 160 lb., 5'7" murderer. I'm not prepared to assume that the victims did nothing when they were attacked by a murderer simply because the initial report was that a "violent incident" occurred. We've since learned so much more than what we knew in the first two weeks of the investigation, and it shouldn't be problematic to update the understanding of what happened over time.

I noticed in the picture posted upthread of the loveseat that there are 2 little purple (sorry, they're green) dumbbells sitting on the floor...wonder if those were left behind at the crime scene? I surmise that it's likely that KL used these, they don't look too big so she probably could pack a bit of a bunch if she had to. Now as far as those dumbbells go, if the "violence" occurred in the livingroom, its funny that the assailant wasn't hit by one of those as a means of defense...they would've been perfect for that...if they were handy.

IMO, I don't think 'violent incident' or 'violent struggle' matters....'incident' refers to the overall violence..."struggle" to me, refers to one event of the overall violent incident. There was obviously violence at the house. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If Tinkerbel1's information is correct in that humans lose an average of 150 strands of hair per day, and we divide 1440 minutes in a day (24hrs x 60minutes) by 150 strands, that would be 1 strand every 10 minutes (that would be assuming of course that 150 strands are lost in equal time intervals, which of course they're not). Probably people would have spent at least 10 minutes browsing around, so it is possible that there would be one strand per person, unless my math is off (that would not be the first time!). Not to say that every hair would be valid for forensic use, but if LE wanted to establish that DG was present in the home, that would be a place to start (although his hair is pretty short, from what I recall). (Do short-haired people lose as much hair as long-haired people?)

lol...the average is 150 hairs per day...some lose more, some lose less. Short hair people/long hair people lose at their own rates personal to the individual...it has to do with the hair follicle and not the length of hair. Balding people may lose more than 150. My whole point was the potential amount of forensic evidence that would have to be sifted through in order to determine the assailant, or dismiss everyone who wasn't the assailant...which means, in the case of lost hair strands, all people from the estate sale would have to give a hair sample in order to technically be ruled out...don't you think? That's what I think. It's like medicine and looking for a disease...they start at the worst case scenario, and work their way down deductively..or so I was told. Unless something identifying DG specifically, ie..a hair sample/strand; blood; identification or whatever, it would be quite the crime scene to comb thru given the amount of people that were through that house on the weekend.

 

[otto]

This is the South wall of the garage, next to the side door. The two windows to the left of the officer are the same two windows seen in the exterior view.

links:

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/police-confident-they-will-find-missing-boy-and-grandparents-1.1896991

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news...ers+have+been+house+weeks/10027455/story.html

 

[Tinkerbel1]

That was me, quoting your calculation above, wherein you suggested that humans lose 150/day x 300 people = 45000 strands x 25% = 11,250

Oh...lol. I'm not good at math...and you are better than you think!