Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[Lalalacasbah]

I also can't fathom that the 'genius' DG would plan this and then drive his apparently very noticeable pickup truck, and not only once but several times in the area during the critical time period. Is *any*one really that stupid? And that seems to be the thing that got him even suspected. Unless there were other things at play in regard to why he was suspected. In find it also interesting that when Cherchri attended court and had a conversation with a new media, the person talked about how the truck was seen twice. And yet we're told several times. So how many times *was* it? You would think that if it were 'several', like 6 or 8 or 10, the reporter would have heard some rumblings in that regard, rather than hearing '2 times'.
Has anyone even considered the possibility of framing?

As much as I think it's was a stupid move about the truck, it happens all the time with criminals.

A lot of them really think they're smarter than everyone else or they're too busy thinking about the big parts of the crime (the actual murder and body disposal) they don't think about the little details and that's where they make mistakes and get caught.

Ted Bundy got caught by police because of some sort of traffic violation. He was a law student and represented himself in court, so a very intelligent serial killer.

Cherchri commented she interpreted (please correct me if I'm misquoting Cherchri) the media meant the truck was seen twice leaving as opposed coming and/or the course of the day.

Unfortunately, as much as I scratch my head, I think there's more to truck story than LE has told us.

I personally don't think DG was framed, I do question the relationship between DG and AL/Liknes family though. I think it's more complex than we're being told.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I was thinking earlier about the hosing of the sidewalk and shoe/foot prints and how none were left visible as far as we can see in the photos (probably because they were hosed away).

I was thinking that if the murderer cleaned his vehicle from head to toe, he still might not have even thought to clean his brakes and gas pedals. If he hastily sprayed his shoes off in the dark, there would still be remnants of blood DNA possibly on the soles of his shoes that would transfer to the gas pedals and brakes.

It could little details like that, that connect the assailant to the crime scene. Who would think to clean those parts of a vehicle? I probably wouldn't!

 

[otto]

a stupid tiny garage sale down the street this past summer easily saw 400. the thing is though, and I wonder if the L's did, you have to register your garage/estate sale, one can't just post a sign anymore. not that it matters imo. Calgary has become a gentrified soulless city of vinyl clad homes and suv's that have rarely to if ever set wheel to a gravel road,, marzipan is more colourful than the civic landscape, so things like garage sales feel better than the typical community of walking a mega mall.

I've never heard of a regulation to post a garage sale anywhere other than a sign on the street or an advertisement in a local newspaper or online sale site. The Calgary Herald has long been a site for last minute garage sale announcements. The advent of the internet hasn't manifested a requirement to register garage sales with the city, has it? For what purpose ... keep people busy at The Firm?

 

[otto]

Okay...a lot of pages and I'm heading to bed soon....but just wanted to say...IIRC...the sale ended at 4pm ...I would have to find links or look wayyyy back but I'm pretty sure it was 4...which means supper could have been any time after that...not so late but a more 'regular' supper time....*I saw a lot of posts about chinese food & supper so I'm just mentioning what I recall*

Otto...your renditions and pics have been great all through this....I was looking at the latest *attached garage & side of attached garage down walkway*...the side with windows...that is the east side correct? Facing out to the vacant neighbour's house? The back wall *work bench* is the southern wall...? I'm assuming because the house faces north and the backyard is south....*going by google maps anyways*...

I've also been examining what pics there are of the back fence...including the overhead from google maps etc...that fence 'appears' to be one piece...that one section nearest the detached garage 'appears' to be different...but from looking at it....I think as said earlier here....it at one time may have been a 'brace' to hold those old garage bins...the wooden ones they used to have back in the day *heck...some of our neighbours still have those* before the city's roll out plastic.....

I was also looking at photos of the garage door...before forensics and after....that mess of purple/gray was not in the 'before' pics...it looks to me like residue & spray/drip trail of Luminol/BlueStar/Leuco crystal violet...JMOO....I will look for links tomorrow or go back through the threads.....gotta hit the hay!

Thank you! You're right. The wall of the garage that has two windows faces East. I'm never turned around in a wide open field, but with mapping I sometimes get directionally screwed up, which is why it would be helpful if we all pitch in to figure out the crime scene layout. The murders happened in the house and it is apparent, if we accept that blood on the sidewalk looks like blood, that the victims were dragged out the side door of the house (same level as garage, and addition) to the front driveway. He broke into the house somehow ... where was it? A neighbour was quoted as having been given the opportunity to enter the crime scene clean-up, and noticed that the walls were washed ... was that routine, or was there blood there ... not a sure thing. Where were the victims?

I think there might be a door to the garage in the original structural wall closer to the "split" in the levels, but I can't be sure. One thing I can do is build a 3D virtual model and we can to a walkthrough, or virtual tour. If we can figure out the floor plan from the kitchen to the lower level and addition, and the location of the interior door between house and garage, then that's a start, and we will understand why Garland chose to drag them along the side of the house. Recently washed drag marks sounds like he used the hose that is coiled up by the side door. Were his fingerprints found on the hose?

East is the garage wall with the two windows next to the side door. Is that a plumbing pipe running down the wall ... in the picture where police are looking at a workbench with several walkie talkies. That would help with understanding the floor plan. If it's plumbing, there's a toilet directly above.

 

[Cherchri]

As much as I think it's was a stupid move about the truck, it happens all the time with criminals.

A lot of them really think they're smarter than everyone else or they're too busy thinking about the big parts of the crime (the actual murder and body disposal) they don't think about the little details and that's where they make mistakes and get caught.

Ted Bundy got caught by police because of some sort of traffic violation. He was a law student and represented himself in court, so a very intelligent serial killer.

Cherchri commented she interpreted (please correct me if I'm misquoting Cherchri) the media meant the truck was seen twice leaving as opposed coming and/or the course of the day.

Unfortunately, as much as I scratch my head, I think there's more to truck story than LE has told us.

I personally don't think DG was framed, I do question the relationship between DG and AL/Liknes family though. I think it's more complex than we're being told.

I believe the reporter told me the truck was seen going to the house twice, IIRC around 9pm and then shortly after 10. Too lazy to check back right now but I believe that is what I was told.

 

[LoriMcA]

If we walk to the end of the street, near the river, we're looking West, so when standing in front of the house, it runs East-West ... but it's early ... look at it later today ... might be mistaken.

Yes...river is to the West...at the west end of 38a Ave.
2 houses for sale across the street...to the North...
122 was for sale at the time of the disappearance...116/118 condos...specifically 116...I don't know what date it came up for sale...
Vacant house #119 *right next to the garage windows & side door*...to the east....
Sidewalk runs between the houses...going north-south
Backyard & fence...to the south of the house....
Here's a map...not very detailed but with some of the key spots:


blood? evidence tags #15 & 16:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/cms/binary/9990715.jpg?size=620x400s
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/cms/binary/9990712.jpg?size=620x400s
http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/evidence-markers.jpg?w=620&h=620

& starting approx 25 sec mark & on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiHg43jyk54


east side garage windows:
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_...e.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg

& article with more pictures & story:
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/police-confident-they-will-find-missing-boy-and-grandparents-1.1896991


Tool/work bench on south wall/back of garage:
http://storage.intelligencer.ca/v1/...L.jpg?quality=80&size=650x&stmp=1405204979060

pants/cloth picture with tool/work bench in the background:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/cms/binary/10027455.jpg?size=640x420

A few more of the garage in this story (7 pictures with article):
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Police+scour+Liknes+house+last+time/10027450/story.html


East side door - evidence tag #14:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/cms/binary/9994200.jpg
http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/cms/binary/9995012.jpg?size=620x400s
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/cms/binary/9992143.jpg?size=620x400s



and the view looking south down sidewalk towards side door/small cement step in sidewalk & then on further south to the backyard/detached garage:
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000x_Zzi4KleuA/s/600/480/QMI-CS2014701DM034-original.jpg
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000K.fgNIGcuqQ/s/600/480/QMI-CS2014701DM042-original.jpg



What I'm curious about is...where is this picture taken? And what they are photographing specifically...
http://metronewsca.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/amberalert-1_jeremynolais.jpg?w=618&h=408&crop=1

Article pic was included in:
http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/10...use-where-missing-calgary-trio-was-last-seen/



There are no stairs on the east side of the house...at least not in the original part of the house...just that one little 1/2 step in the sidewalk...
It's not at the front of the house or the west side....that leaves the back of the house going up to the deck...I would figure?

JMOO

 

[LoriMcA]

Thank you! You're right. The wall of the garage that has two windows faces East. I'm never turned around in a wide open field, but with mapping I sometimes get directionally screwed up, which is why it would be helpful if we all pitch in to figure out the crime scene layout. The murders happened in the house and it is apparent, if we accept that blood on the sidewalk looks like blood, that the victims were dragged out the side door of the house (same level as garage, and addition) to the front driveway. He broke into the house somehow ... where was it? A neighbour was quoted as having been given the opportunity to enter the crime scene clean-up, and noticed that the walls were washed ... was that routine, or was there blood there ... not a sure thing. Where were the victims?

I think there might be a door to the garage in the original structural wall closer to the "split" in the levels, but I can't be sure. One thing I can do is build a 3D virtual model and we can to a walkthrough, or virtual tour. If we can figure out the floor plan from the kitchen to the lower level and addition, and the location of the interior door between house and garage, then that's a start, and we will understand why Garland chose to drag them along the side of the house. Recently washed drag marks sounds like he used the hose that is coiled up by the side door. Were his fingerprints found on the hose?

East is the garage wall with the two windows next to the side door. Is that a plumbing pipe running down the wall ... in the picture where police are looking at a workbench with several walkie talkies. That would help with understanding the floor plan. If it's plumbing, there's a toilet directly above.

haha...I was typing up my post while obviously you were as well! It looks like a plumbing pipe...as well..if you notice in one of the articles I posted with further pictures inside the garage...there is a heating vent...looks like it would run from the basement *under the living room* out and up to that floor above the garage with the double garden doors?

 

[LoriMcA]

I believe the reporter told me the truck was seen going to the house twice, IIRC around 9pm and then shortly after 10. Too lazy to check back right now but I believe that is what I was told.

IIRC Cherchri...when you came back from court you had said 2 sightings...around 9 & 10 approx of course....So yes...I remember you'd said that! It was one of those 'aha' moments...that 9 pm time could be when that picture that was released was taken as it's quite light out still....IMO

 

[otto]

As much as I think it's was a stupid move about the truck, it happens all the time with criminals.

A lot of them really think they're smarter than everyone else or they're too busy thinking about the big parts of the crime (the actual murder and body disposal) they don't think about the little details and that's where they make mistakes and get caught.

Ted Bundy got caught by police because of some sort of traffic violation. He was a law student and represented himself in court, so a very intelligent serial killer.

Cherchri commented she interpreted (please correct me if I'm misquoting Cherchri) the media meant the truck was seen twice leaving as opposed coming and/or the course of the day.

Unfortunately, as much as I scratch my head, I think there's more to truck story than LE has told us.

I personally don't think DG was framed, I do question the relationship between DG and AL/Liknes family though. I think it's more complex than we're being told.

Criminals, even the smart sociopaths, usually forget one detail. Sometimes they get away with it for a while before they are caught, like Hannah Graham's disappearance in Virginia ... she was caught by a seasoned sociopath that seemed to have no fear of detection. Now he is captured.

 

[otto]

IIRC Cherchri...when you came back from court you had said 2 sightings...around 9 & 10 approx of course....So yes...I remember you'd said that! It was one of those 'aha' moments...that 9 pm time could be when that picture that was released was taken as it's quite light out still....IMO

Wasn't it a female CTV reporter who suggested that a tire iron was used, that the victims were vaporized at an Airdrie acreage, and that the truck photos were taken before the murders. The photos suggest that the truck passed the camera twice ... was that at 9-10PM, and is there a time stamp on any of the published photos?

 

[LoriMcA]

Wasn't it a female CTV reporter who suggested that a tire iron was used, that the victims were vaporized at an Airdrie acreage, and that the truck photos were taken before the murders. The photos suggest that the truck passed the camera twice ... was that at 9-10PM, and is there a time stamp on any of the published photos?

I'm not sure otto...Cherchri would be the best person to answer that...& I do recall she talked to a reporter & they had said 2 pictures...around 9 and around 10...
Don't quote me...I wasn't there first hand! *wish I could be!*
We are lucky to have Cherchri taking the time to do 'intel' at the courthouse...our eyes on the ground

 

[otto]

haha...I was typing up my post while obviously you were as well! It looks like a plumbing pipe...as well..if you notice in one of the articles I posted with further pictures inside the garage...there is a heating vent...looks like it would run from the basement *under the living room* out and up to that floor above the garage with the double garden doors?

Oh good. If we can both identify the pipe as plumbing related, and I would say with that pipe diameter probably means a toilet flush, that suggests to me that a bathroom was moved, or added, during the renovation. No one would design a house with upstairs plumbing going through the garage, but it is possible to run a sewage pipe from an upstairs reno down through the garage if the objective is to avoid ripping out ceilings.

Photos of police near the heating vent are online. Is that an intake HVAC vent in the garage? The furnace would be in the lowest level of the house, next to the hot water tank. The furnace is not in the garage, but a cold air intake could be venter through the garage ... although that would be a carbon monoxide nightmare.

Where are the vents that police looked at?

 

[LoriMcA]

If anyone would like an interesting read...since we are on the subject of criminals screwing up and getting caught....how could someone who seems to be intelligent ...seems to have planned out everything....mess up? Well here you go...

Smart killers - Stupid Mistakes


"Harold Shipman was Britain's most prolific serial killer. According to the public inquiry into his crimes, the former family doctor killed at least 250 of his patients over 23 years."


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/aug/25/health.shipman


Got away with it till his greed took over. He forged the will of one of his victims, leaving him everything.




"One of the most notorious murderers in history, Ted Bundy was known as “Lady Killer” because he would kidnap, rape, and violently assault and murder pretty young women."


http://listverse.com/2013/07/15/10-criminals-caught-thanks-to-their-own-stupidity/


Pulled over by police & then sped away with burglary tools in plain sight in the back seat.




"David Berkowitz is one of the most infamous serial killers of all time, though he is more commonly referred to as the Son of Sam."


http://listverse.com/2013/07/15/10-criminals-caught-thanks-to-their-own-stupidity/


"So how did they finally catch the infamous murderer? A parking ticket."




A search will find you all kinds of supposedly 'intelligent' criminals who screw up in the end...
Some of their antics truly make you want to smack your forehead....JMOO

 

[otto]

Were the vents added after market to bring heat to the upstairs addition ... the addition that appears to be built on a concrete slab rather than a foundation.

 

[otto]

If anyone would like an interesting read...since we are on the subject of criminals screwing up and getting caught....how could someone who seems to be intelligent ...seems to have planned out everything....mess up? Well here you go...

Smart killers - Stupid Mistakes


"Harold Shipman was Britain's most prolific serial killer. According to the public inquiry into his crimes, the former family doctor killed at least 250 of his patients over 23 years."


http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/aug/25/health.shipman


Got away with it till his greed took over. He forged the will of one of his victims, leaving him everything.




"One of the most notorious murderers in history, Ted Bundy was known as “Lady Killer” because he would kidnap, rape, and violently assault and murder pretty young women."


http://listverse.com/2013/07/15/10-criminals-caught-thanks-to-their-own-stupidity/


Pulled over by police & then sped away with burglary tools in plain sight in the back seat.




"David Berkowitz is one of the most infamous serial killers of all time, though he is more commonly referred to as the Son of Sam."


http://listverse.com/2013/07/15/10-criminals-caught-thanks-to-their-own-stupidity/


"So how did they finally catch the infamous murderer? A parking ticket."




A search will find you all kinds of supposedly 'intelligent' criminals who screw up in the end...
Some of their antics truly make you want to smack your forehead....JMOO

What's interesting about the examples you post are that they were caught by accident, not while committing the crime. That, they had down to an art.

Eventually, even those that have it down to an art make a mistake during some part of the murder.

 

[otto]

I'm not sure otto...Cherchri would be the best person to answer that...& I do recall she talked to a reporter & they had said 2 pictures...around 9 and around 10...
Don't quote me...I wasn't there first hand! *wish I could be!*
We are lucky to have Cherchri taking the time to do 'intel' at the courthouse...our eyes on the ground

That's true. Cherchri has attended court and posted overheard comments here. The mentioned female reporter reportedly said that the photos were from early in the evening, 9-10PM, that a tire iron was the likely murder weapon, and that the victims were vapourized at an Airdrie property ... with lye ... which I've since learned is apparently present in most households for soap making. Lye is not a standard United Farmers of Alberta, united grain growers, product.

Alisa Carpenter ??? ... something like that ... some female CTV reporter apparently shared her "theory of the crime" with one of our posters ... tire iron to vaporization.

 

[otto]

What if he attacked by throwing chemicals on the victims at the Parkhill crime scene ... that might explain the unusual tissue on the sidewalk ... aside from a machete/axe? It's most likely that Garland entered the house with a home invasion ... and the best way to overcome the residents is to wait until the light are turned off, and to then "blitz" (as in WW2) the bedroom.

All this speculation about the accused and chemicals ... why assume that this happened at his parent's acreage? Why not question whether he used his knowledge of caustic substances, criminal record, and human tissue to do a home invasion attack with chemicals? That's Garland's expertise, isn't it ... two years in a science degree at the U of Alberta, a meth conviction, and his story of studying (cheating) to become a doctor ... and he's a chemical genius.

If he's a chemical genius, why wouldn't he use his chemical genius to commit murder?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I believe the reporter told me the truck was seen going to the house twice, IIRC around 9pm and then shortly after 10. Too lazy to check back right now but I believe that is what I was told.

Thanks for clearing that up Cherchri Of course I got it the other way around with my bad memory lol!

 

[deugirtni]

That's a great pic, thanks otto!
Is it possible to put a pointer in that pic as to where the green pickup truck was captured driving on the road?
Also, I just thought of something to consider about that whole 'drag marks on the sidewalk thing'. The activity occurred sometime between 10pm and 10am. I think someone posted the temperature on that day. From memory, it seems to me that it wasn't all that warm, can someone repost that? Also, what would the nightime temperature have been? What I'm wondering.. okay, first.. I can see on the concrete where the 'water line' is, or shall we say liquid line, so at some time, one time, that cement had water or a liquid. Personally, I don't see it as being red or rusty colored, but I'll take your word for it. In any case, that night, after the deed was done, so way after 10pm.. and likely way before say 5am because he would be risking exposing himself to daylight around then.. if the concrete were washed.. would it really appear to be dry? Wouldn't it take a lot longer? Wouldn't it have the greyer tinge of wet concrete? I realize the photo was taken ... when? hours later? Does anyone know about the rate of concrete drying?

Thank you! You're right. The wall of the garage that has two windows faces East. I'm never turned around in a wide open field, but with mapping I sometimes get directionally screwed up, which is why it would be helpful if we all pitch in to figure out the crime scene layout. The murders happened in the house and it is apparent, if we accept that blood on the sidewalk looks like blood, that the victims were dragged out the side door of the house (same level as garage, and addition) to the front driveway. He broke into the house somehow ... where was it? A neighbour was quoted as having been given the opportunity to enter the crime scene clean-up, and noticed that the walls were washed ... was that routine, or was there blood there ... not a sure thing. Where were the victims?

I think there might be a door to the garage in the original structural wall closer to the "split" in the levels, but I can't be sure. One thing I can do is build a 3D virtual model and we can to a walkthrough, or virtual tour. If we can figure out the floor plan from the kitchen to the lower level and addition, and the location of the interior door between house and garage, then that's a start, and we will understand why Garland chose to drag them along the side of the house. Recently washed drag marks sounds like he used the hose that is coiled up by the side door. Were his fingerprints found on the hose?

East is the garage wall with the two windows next to the side door. Is that a plumbing pipe running down the wall ... in the picture where police are looking at a workbench with several walkie talkies. That would help with understanding the floor plan. If it's plumbing, there's a toilet directly above.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

What's interesting about the examples you post are that they were caught by accident, not while committing the crime. That, they had down to an art.

Eventually, even those that have it down to an art make a mistake during some part of the murder.

It's like they're bad at day-to-day, real life stuff... But good at lying, hiding and deceiving that comes along with being a murderer!