Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

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  • #581
Me too, this story really haunts me. I think because at the very beginning when reading about it in MSM, it almost sounded like there was a tiny chance someone would still be alive, there was some hope there :(
When I first heard about the story, I thought it would be an abduction situation. One phone call to a colleague on scene telling me that the ME was called in, quickly relieved me of that notion. The fact that there was a violent crime scene, no bodies and no idea if it was a home invasion gone wrong was disturbing. When I saw that a five year old boy was likely brutally murdered, all bets were off - I was captivated.
 
  • #582
When I first heard about the story, I thought it would be an abduction situation. One phone call to a colleague on scene telling me that the ME was called in, quickly relieved me of that notion. The fact that there was a violent crime scene, no bodies and no idea if it was a home invasion gone wrong was disturbing. When I saw that a five year old boy was likely brutally murdered, all bets were off - I was captivated.

I still held out hope even after hearing about the violent crime scene, I kept hoping and hoping he spared Nathan.

I was in denial, even during the search of the acreage I was on pins and needles and wished and wished he had mercy on the boy and he would be found there for some illogical reason (even though I knew statistically, it wasn't reasonable).

I was so crushed when he was officially charged. The trial will be a doozy and might be tough to hear details of for all the people rooting for the Liknes/O'Briens and I can't imagine how those families and personal friends will cope.
 
  • #583
I still held out hope even after hearing about the violent crime scene, I kept hoping and hoping he spared Nathan.

I was in denial, even during the search of the acreage I was on pins and needles and wished and wished he had mercy on the boy and he would be found there for some illogical reason (even though I knew statistically, it wasn't reasonable).

I was so crushed when he was officially charged. The trial will be a doozy and might be tough to hear details of for all the people rooting for the Liknes/O'Briens and I can't imagine how those families and personal friends will cope.
Perhaps they will freak out at LE for not finding their loved ones fast enough.

Such a different reaction. I wonder why.
 
  • #584
When I first heard about the story, I thought it would be an abduction situation. One phone call to a colleague on scene telling me that the ME was called in, quickly relieved me of that notion. The fact that there was a violent crime scene, no bodies and no idea if it was a home invasion gone wrong was disturbing. When I saw that a five year old boy was likely brutally murdered, all bets were off - I was captivated.
Part of the reason why this case stayed at the forefront of the public in those initial weeks was because of Nathan's involvement.

If you recall, the only thing we knew was that he wasn't planning on being there that night... it was a last minute decision. With the house sale on, much of the speculation was that a shopper from that day was involved... and the amber alert saying AL might be with NO... leaving out KL... that only intensified the speculation and the endless weird possibilities behind 3 people vanishing.

Given what we have experienced all year about people vanishing, and nothing happening... without NO, would this be just another missing persons case?
 
  • #585
I still held out hope even after hearing about the violent crime scene, I kept hoping and hoping he spared Nathan.

I was in denial, even during the search of the acreage I was on pins and needles and wished and wished he had mercy on the boy and he would be found there for some illogical reason (even though I knew statistically, it wasn't reasonable).

I was so crushed when he was officially charged. The trial will be a doozy and might be tough to hear details of for all the people rooting for the Liknes/O'Briens and I can't imagine how those families and personal friends will cope.
I have always professed to have a tough, even cold heart, but this one got to me. After hearing details from family in LE, my heart broke. I have covered many child homicides, but this one is different - The child was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't abused or murdered by a parent, he was savagely murdered because he was present. The accused could have let him go, as a small child's testimony would be flawed and suspect. There was absolutely no reason to murder him and dispose of him the way he did. The parent's didn't even have a body to bury.

What made it worse, was details about the accused and his behaviour... I got the impression that he felt justified and above contempt. I really don't think he is on suicide watch because he feels remorse, but rather that he feels that he shouldn't have been caught or prosecuted. His angry, violent behaviour in custody was likely the reason he is under SW. Normally I am on the side of presumption of innocence, but quite frankly, he hasn't behaved like someone who is innocent, but rather angry and vengeful. While I concede that my opinions are based on hear-say from family in LE that dealt with him, I cannot shake the anger and contempt I have for this accused suspect. Anyone that brutally murders and disposes the body of a five year old child, has some serious flaws in their character and mental faculties.
 
  • #586
Perhaps they will freak out at LE for not finding their loved ones fast enough.

Such a different reaction. I wonder why.
I have a *feeling* that family were actually brought in on the details early on. IMO, they knew at the presser that their loved one's were gone. Many have commented on Jen's demeanor - I suspect she was simply going through the motions. She saw the crime scene... She knew.
 
  • #587
I have a *feeling* that family were actually brought in on the details early on. IMO, they knew at the presser that their loved one's were gone.
The presser that LE said they hope to find them alive?
 
  • #588
The presser that LE said they hope to find them alive?
Keep in mind, they said "HOPE" which is standard LE speak for, we know instincually that they won't be found alive but because we have no solid forensics to justify stating otherwise, we need to placate the public. At that time, the public were not aware if there was a random murderer lose in the city... In my experience, LE's first priority is to calm the fears of the community. They would be remiss to suggest anything until they had incontrovertible evidence to make a public statement.
 
  • #589
Keep in mind, they said "HOPE" which is standard LE speak for, we know instincually that they won't be found alive but because we have no solid forensics to justify stating otherwise, we need to placate the public. At that time, the public were not aware if there was a random murderer lose in the city... In my experience, LE's first priority is to calm the fears of the community. They would be remiss to suggest anything until they had incontrovertible evidence to make a public statement.
Wouldn't that be a bit cruel to tell them they are gone... and then tell them to take the podium and make an appeal?

Even after the charges were laid, the family wanted to maintain hope...
 
  • #590
Wouldn't that be a bit cruel to tell them they are gone... and then tell them to take the podium and make an appeal?

Even after the charges were laid, the family wanted to maintain hope...
Given the crime scene that Jen walked in on, I doubt anything that LE said after that would be considered "cruel" - Unfortunately, often family members are used as pawns in the attempt to catch suspects. They are well prepared and informed. I think it would be even more cruel to give them false hope.
 
  • #591
This case is gut wrenching.
Not a day goes by that I don't think of little nathan and his family.
I agree with news, I think DG is likely so mad that a little kid ruined what he no doubt felt was a fool proof plan and might feel "justified" in all of his actions. Somebody has to be pure evil to murder a child, there's no other explanation.

Watching footage of the latest search, it does seem like they are looking for microscopic pieces of evidence on the acreage...I recall LE asking for companies in the area to pay extra attention to their well sites, what do you suppose they think was dumped (if not remains?)
 
  • #592
Part of the reason why this case stayed at the forefront of the public in those initial weeks was because of Nathan's involvement.

If you recall, the only thing we knew was that he wasn't planning on being there that night... it was a last minute decision. With the house sale on, much of the speculation was that a shopper from that day was involved... and the amber alert saying AL might be with NO... leaving out KL... that only intensified the speculation and the endless weird possibilities behind 3 people vanishing.

Given what we have experienced all year about people vanishing, and nothing happening... without NO, would this be just another missing persons case?
I absolutely agree. Maybe I am sceptical and conditioned, but if a blond haired, cute little boy wasn't involved, the case would be a fraction as interesting.
 
  • #593
I absolutely agree. Maybe I am sceptical and conditioned, but if a blond haired, cute little boy wasn't involved, the case would be a fraction as interesting.
Indeed. The "they ran to Mexico" theory would still probably be the prevalent one...

How difficult do you think it will be to actually get a seat in the courtroom?
 
  • #594
I have always professed to have a tough, even cold heart, but this one got to me. After hearing details from family in LE, my heart broke. I have covered many child homicides, but this one is different - The child was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't abused or murdered by a parent, he was savagely murdered because he was present. The accused could have let him go, as a small child's testimony would be flawed and suspect. There was absolutely no reason to murder him and dispose of him the way he did. The parent's didn't even have a body to bury.

What made it worse, was details about the accused and his behaviour... I got the impression that he felt justified and above contempt. I really don't think he is on suicide watch because he feels remorse, but rather that he feels that he shouldn't have been caught or prosecuted. His angry, violent behaviour in custody was likely the reason he is under SW. Normally I am on the side of presumption of innocence, but quite frankly, he hasn't behaved like someone who is innocent, but rather angry and vengeful. While I concede that my opinions are based on hear-say from family in LE that dealt with him, I cannot shake the anger and contempt I have for this accused suspect. Anyone that brutally murders and disposes the body of a five year old child, has some serious flaws in their character and mental faculties.

I couldn't agree more about the crime and the suspect.

It's also a bit different and hit home with many hearts because how many people have dropped off their child with their grandparents in a spur of the moment decision? Many and often. It's a habit for many parents and you leave having full trust for safety. The circumstances and timing of this crime is mentally anguishing.

I can't help but loathe the suspect as well. My close family member who has professionally dealt with and analyzed heinous, demented murderers while working in prisons has said basically the same things as you in your thoughts of DG. It's scary to know these people with such personality disorders mostly all have the same characteristics, patterns and most cannot be rehabilitated (I said most, not all for anyone who wants to lash at me. I'm only repeating info from a professional, not my opinion here!)
 
  • #595
Yes, without a doubt they have a new search warrant.

In a typical ITO - Information to Obtain a Warrant, the scope has to be laid out with justification:

A search warrant can be used not only for collecting evidence supporting a criminal charge but also as an investigative tool for alleged criminal activity.

The items sought need not necessarily afford evidence of the actual commission of the offence under investigation. Rather it "must be something either taken by itself or in relation to other things, that could be reasonably believed to be evidence of the commission of the crime."

Generally, an approving justice should be satified that:

that the items specified exist; that the items specified will be found in the place to be searched at the time of the search; that the offence alleged has been, or will be, (depending on the type of search warrant being sought) committed; that the items specified will afford evidence of the offence alleged; and that the place to be searched is the location where the items will be located.

There are five basic questions that all ITO's must address at a minimum:

What are the grounds for believing the things to be searched for exist? What are the grounds for saying that the things to be searched for are at the place to be searched? What are the grounds for saying the offence has been committed as described? How will the things to be searched for afford evidence of the commission of the offence alleged? What are the grounds for saying that the place to be searched is at the location identified?

The justice of the peace loses jurisdiction where the description is over-broad or too vague such that it essentially allows the officer to conduct a "carte blanche" search for any evidence within the premises.

It has been recommended the following principles be considered:

Peace officers should be given some latitude in describing things as they are still at the investigative stage; the description may be limited to classes of documents if it is sufficiently limited to the crime for which they are alleged to afford evidence; the Information sworn to obtain the Search Warrant must be read together with the Search Warrant; the nature of the offence(s) must be considered; in considering all of the factors, appropriate inferences may be made; *there need not always be a time limit set out with respect to the documents or items sought*; overly broad or vague descriptions can be severed leaving validly described things remaining; each case must be considered on its own facts.

http://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cana..._Practice/Search_and_Seizure/Warrant_Searches

----
As far as damage, it is my understanding, that LE is responsible for any costs associated with damage in executing a Warrant. Of course they have exceptions where they hold the owner responsible, but I have also seen lengthy proceedings from trying to recover costs.

I would also imagine that they obtained a new warrant for this second search. Once they release a scene back to the owners, they cannot come back wothout another warrant. There is legal paperwork involved in releasing the scene that includes damages.
 
  • #596
  • #597
I couldn't agree more about the crime and the suspect.

It's also a bit different and hit home with many hearts because how many people have dropped off their child with their grandparents in a spur of the moment decision? Many and often. It's a habit for many parents and you leave having full trust for safety. The circumstances and timing of this crime is mentally anguishing.

I can't help but loathe the suspect as well. My close family member who has professionally dealt with and analyzed heinous, demented murderers while working in prisons has said basically the same things as you in your thoughts of DG. It's scary to know these people with such personality disorders mostly all have the same characteristics, patterns and most cannot be rehabilitated (I said most, not all for anyone who wants to lash at me. I'm only repeating info from a professional, not my opinion here!)
Who lashes out around here? :)

So much of it is choice as well... everyone reading this is capable of murder. It all depends on your motivation... and for every person who feels justified in committing the act, there will be someone equally horrified by it. Perception.

If you want to try to understand it, don't just stop at the label... evil, crazy, monster... dig deeper.

It will be very interesting to hear what the Crown feels was the motivation and trigger.
 
  • #598
Who lashes out around here? :)

So much of it is choice as well... everyone reading this is capable of murder. It all depends on your motivation... and for every person who feels justified in committing the act, there will be someone equally horrified by it. Perception.

If you want to try to understand it, don't just stop at the label... evil, crazy, monster... dig deeper.

It will be very interesting to hear what the Crown feels was the motivation and trigger.
Very few people are capable of brutally murdering a five year old child. There is no justification for that.

Enjoying the couch?
 
  • #599
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of what Stan was describing sounds like it would require an excavator to get at. There hasn't been a lot new reported today.
 
  • #600
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