Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[Sillybilly]

Sorry, but why do I feel the wildest urge to sign up with the nick "Mother Theresa" and talk smack? :biggrin:

 

[deugirtni]

No otto, that is where the problem lies... in June there was 1 only listed (even though there were 4 including the L trio):

15th Calgary homicide of 2014 - June 20 — Gabriel Okeynan, 45, is found suffering from stab wounds outside Marlborough Mall and dies in hospital June 24. A 16-year-old is later charged with robbery and second-degree murder while a 13-year-old is charged with second-degree murder. Neither teen can be named.

Then in July, there were 4 additional homicides:

19th homicide - July 4 — Colton James Crowshoe, 18, is last seen by friends in the Abbeydale area. On July 24, Crowshoe’s body is found in a water retention point near Stoney Tr. and 16 Ave. N.E. Police do not release the cause of death, but say they believe the case is a homicide.

20th homicide - July 5 — Ayuen Ajak Goot, also known as Devon Goot, 18, is found unconscious in a strip mall parking long at 2936 Radcliffe Dr. S.E. and taken to hospital. He succumbs to his injuries July 15. Police say they believe it was a targeted attack and the victim was known to the suspects. Ojullo Mark Ojullo, 20, and Shannon Jabet, 19, are each charged with one count of second-degree murder.

21st homicide - July 26 — The body of a 49-year-old woman is found in a home in the 2800 block of 14 Ave. S.W. Her son has been charged with second-degree murder.

22nd homicide - July 27 — Brian Blackkettle is found unconscious at Century Gardens in downtown Calgary. He is transported to hospital where he is pronounced dead. An autopsy confirms he was slain and on July 29 police announce it was by the hands of someone the victim knew.

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If you look at June's report wherein they only count the one homicide, instead of the 4, the total number of homicides for year to end of June is listed as 15 (it should be 18, but they have failed to include the trio).

Then if you look at July's report, it lists the 4 murders in July (does not count the trio's murder), but yet the total for year to end of July, has jumped to 22. Do you see now what I'm trying to say, in that 3 murders are missing?

Homicide #s 16, 17, and 18 are missing, in the June report (and the July report), but yet the 3 are included in the totals for the year.

These are the June and July reports. In June 2014 there was 1 homicide, and in July 2014 there were 4. That accurately reflects the three murders in Parkhill that were determined to be homicides in mid-July.

 

[deugirtni]

I think on the website, it lists exactly when the reports will be published/calculated each month (I believe it said 4 days after month end unless the 4th day is a weekend? It also says the spreadsheet report is a 'static' report, so I think that would mean it would not change after the fact, even if new info came to light later. The PDF repots state they are 'dynamic' and do get changed manually to reflect new information after the fact. So if any of the reports should be accurate, it should be the PDF, however, they have that one linked wrong so taht July instead downloads in place of June, and if you are able (as otto has shown how) to download the June report, it is incorrect. Very curious.

I agree. Why are they posting stats if they are not going to do it right? Do the spreadsheets say when they were created? Maybe whoever is responsible decided that the homicides shouldn't be published the way they are shown on the crime map and the spreadsheets were posted afterwards. Maybe it would be too telling if they updated the crime map and removed the 2 homicides completely. If so, we could assume that murder did not in fact take place in Parkhill. But of course we won't have any clarification and it is another curious tidbit to add to the list of potential "AHA! Moments" we could have one day...if ever...or never... I sure hope the three are found before May.

 

[LoisLane]

Hey Lois... Since this is public info, have you or anyone else ever inquired directly with the CPS as to the inconsistency concerns?

I have considered it and I believe I sent a message a few weeks ago but I will have to double check if I did or not. I will check my emails again and let you know. If I haven't I certainly will.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm quite certain that many would have let them know, which makes it even weirder that it hasn't been corrected. MOO
Thank you LoisLane for letting them know!

I have considered it and I believe I sent a message a few weeks ago but I will have to double check if I did or not. I will check my emails again and let you know. If I haven't I certainly will.

 

[deugirtni]

My 'belief' is that.. these are statistical reports where the numbers are derived from a database, not just typed in one by one and subject to error.. and so if the trio's June murders are included in the July year-to-date homicide totals, then those 3 murders are SOMEWHERE in a neighbourhood statistic as well. So why are they not listed in the Parkhill neighbourhood for either June OR July? MOO

 

[news.talk]

I have considered it and I believe I sent a message a few weeks ago but I will have to double check if I did or not. I will check my emails again and let you know. If I haven't I certainly will.

I'm not sure of the best contact, but I would think that the media/public information centre would be the one to try first.

 

[LoisLane]

I'm not sure of the best contact, but I would think that the media/public information centre would be the one to try first.

I just looked at how I would have done it and I see now that there isn't a direct contact regarding crime stats, so most likely I gave up. I will check my emails still but I doubt I took it further. I will check out your suggestion and send off a message, at least we can say we inquired.

ETA.. I called the Online Reports Hotline Help Desk which is not at all meant for statistical data reports but the person did direct me to the Community Liason Officer for Parkhill so I may leave him a message. I am also thinking I will contact the writer of the Sun article posted upthread and see what he may be able to tell me based on his report compared to the statistical data.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Considering you have said that you have never been the victim of a violent crime, it is hardly judging nor presumptuous.

As for the rest? Clearly you missed the point, again.

Yes, well my personal life is not your concern, and trying to follow your diatribes is a little exhausting and somewhat confusing. Darned if I know why I feel compelled to respond...there's clearly no point. I thought I read a post where you claim to be horrified about the protests down South...you certainly don't appear to be terribly concerned about playing a part in keeping things peaceful and civil here, do you? Perfect example for the microcosm of the macrocosm.

 

[news.talk]

Yes, well my personal life is not your concern, and trying to follow your diatribes is a little exhausting and somewhat confusing. Darned if I know why I feel compelled to respond...there's clearly no point. I thought I read a post where you claim to be horrified about the protests down South...you certainly don't appear to be terribly concerned about playing a part in keeping things peaceful and civil here, do you? Perfect example for the microcosm of the macrocosm.

Not a very "compassionate" response. Kinda blows your position to bits.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Not a very "compassionate" response. Kinda blows your position to bits.

Sure it is...I didn't say anything NEAR what I was thinking...and I thought long and hard about being as kind as possible given the circumstance.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Might want to try harder. Your original sentiment did not reflect your reply.

Lol...sorry for hurting your feelings. :/

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Accurate how though? A category for "Homicide - Unknown Location (subject to possible future court challenge)"? If they release "unknown location", is that too much information because the case is in front of the courts? Do they categorize it by date of disappearance, or by date of declaration of death?

To me, the stats are too ambiguous to read anything into them. Even if accurate to the dates... then yes... LE said 3 died, and there it is in the stats. No one is any further ahead.

The stats aren't *that* important in the grand scheme of things however it definitely adds another weird oddity to this case, as if there isn't enough already!

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Regarding the discrepancies in the crime stats/crime map - here's a theory to explain why only 2 murders are listed, not 3.

Let's say there is a lot of blood at the crime scene, which I believe to be true. Let's say that after all the forensic testing, it becomes clear that there was enough blood, identified by DNA to belong to 2 of the victims, to determine they could not have survived that degree of blood loss. There is also a lot of blood from the 3rd victim. Let's go further and suggest the 3rd victim is NO. The amount of his blood found in the L home is not enough to determine he died there. However, evidence found elsewhere completes the conclusion that NO is dead. Elsewhere could be the dump - bedding was taken away by LE which may have been utterly blood-stained, with enough of NO's blood to determine he had indeed bled out while wrapped in the bedding. There would be no way to know for certain if NO died at the L home or in the back of the truck, or at a 2nd or 3rd crime scene. Hence the crime stats could not conclude he had died there. But LE could still know, from forensic evidence, that NO is, in fact, dead.

Just an idea...

IMHO


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I think your theory is valid, as there might be some 'unknowns' in this case about who died where. It isn't the crime map that's irksome, it's the excel spreadsheet and report stats that *seem* to have different info.

It's the mild OCD in me that want's the numbers to reconcile is all! :gaah:

I like to fix things and solve things, a reason I'm on Webslueths in the first place lol

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Hey Lois... Since this is public info, have you or anyone else ever inquired directly with the CPS as to the inconsistency concerns?

That's a good idea news.talk, I'd feel kind of lame doing that as they have bigger fish to fry, but I'm so tempted to since it's peeving me! Not sure if LL would….the girl's got guts though, so she might.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have considered it and I believe I sent a message a few weeks ago but I will have to double check if I did or not. I will check my emails again and let you know. If I haven't I certainly will.

You go girl, you rock! You'll see my other comment to this upthread, I said how gutsy you are and probably would email them. Such a super sleuther you are

 

[Lalalacasbah]

As much as an empathetic person I am, I have learned the hard way to be careful with whom I empathize with.

There are many evil people in the world, some deserve forgiveness, some don't.

I feel as a human being - I cannot allow myself to forgive or empathize with those people so evil they are what I call subhuman. Because to me, to be human you need a conscience and emotions. Sadly, there are many out there who do not have this human trait, and often they commit heinous crimes from scamming retirement funds to rape to murder.

Criminals (psychopaths and some sociopaths) with no conscience cannot be rehabilitated and so, I have no sympathy for them. They will take and take and take with no limits or consequences - period. They do not learn, they do not love. They will chew you up and spit you out.

Criminals who have emotions and a conscience but who may be mentally ill, abused in the past/rough life and are drug addicted who commit crimes are a different type of criminal. Sometimes, these types of people just made bad decisions, and can learn from it. They can most of the time be rehabilitated and to me, can be forgivable.

There's two different cuts of cloth out there, IMHO. It's hard to argue over. I think this is a never ending problem in our world, how we treat criminals and victims, how we do we fix this? Empathy and love or tougher laws and consequences? I don't think this subject will ever be solved, as neither has seemed to work in other places in the world. Tough debate!

Sorry, rant over, just wanted to throw in my thoughts.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

The stats aren't *that* important in the grand scheme of things however it definitely adds another weird oddity to this case, as if there isn't enough already!

Understood and agree. I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing in all the details. Worst case scenario, some IT guy is pulling his hair out trying to cover all the bases in a spreadsheet because there is no set policy on how to classify homicide without bodies while it's before the courts, and his bosses haven't got the email back yet from the higher ups as to what column to put it in.

 

[LoisLane]

You go girl, you rock! You'll see my other comment to this upthread, I said how gutsy you are and probably would email them. Such a super sleuther you are

Hehe, you know me well! I love sending emails! Ask any of my friends and family and they will assure you that I will attempt to find the source of things or some resolve and have been doing it since I was a wee one. Some love it, some are nervous, some know they can count on me, and some have a few good stories about my style. When I was a teenager I had no filter so I got into a lot of trouble, now I would say it contributes to my success in different avenues of my life. The best part of it is that I will always help someone out if they are not comfortable in asking or getting to the bottom of something and that has been rewarding on so many levels.

I have followed up with the Sun reporter and will also attempt for some answers from CPS. I will keep you posted.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Understood and agree. I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing in all the details. Worst case scenario, some IT guy is pulling his hair out trying to cover all the bases in a spreadsheet because there is no set policy on how to classify homicide without bodies while it's before the courts, and his bosses haven't got the email back yet from the higher ups as to what column to put it in.

I had thought the exact same thing as you - can it only 'count' after it's gone through the courts and someone is found guilty?

I wasn't sure their protocols and how their statistics are done. I think deugirtni is right, they're probably pulled from a database electronically, so there's probably certain criteria to extract the info.

I almost think the stats could be based on charges laid or maybe even ME's determination/death certificates issued, but this wouldn't make sense as the ME's probably have their own stats that are separate from this and I think the courts have their own sets of stats. I'm thinking it could be based on the number of charges maybe...