Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I know I'm highly skilled at the obvious, but if you're not prepared for the details, then perhaps you should avoid them.

There are equally horrific details occurring daily... just look at the news coming out of Iraq. Taking over, and controlling a city of people lends itself to equal atrocities.

It's an opportunity to learn, to study the criminal mind, to understand what goes into a crime, to delve into the motives, to see the cause and effect of action and inaction... and ultimately, to create empathy and sensitivity as well as a broader perspective.

 

[news.talk]

I know I'm highly skilled at the obvious, but if you're not prepared for the details, then perhaps you should avoid them.

There are equally horrific details occurring daily... just look at the news coming out of Iraq. Taking over, and controlling a city of people lends itself to equal atrocities.

It's an opportunity to learn, to study the criminal mind, to understand what goes into a crime, to delve into the motives, to see the cause and effect of action and inaction... and ultimately, to create empathy and sensitivity as well as a broader perspective.

I *used* to be immune to murder trials. After the first hundred, you stop empathizing with the victims and their family's. Once you become a parent though, hearing the details of the brutal ways that they died and seeing the people that committed the crimes, becomes much more difficult. There were a few years after my son was born that I couldn't step foot into a courtroom. It is still hard, but I have come to terms with the difference. It is different seeing the suspect and the family of the victims up close... There is a palpable thread of grief in that small room. It is hard NOT to be affected.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I *used* to be immune to murder trials. After the first hundred, you stop empathizing with the victims and their family's. Once you become a parent though, hearing the details of the brutal ways that they died and seeing the people that committed the crimes, becomes much more difficult. There were a few years after my son was born that I couldn't step foot into a courtroom. It is still hard, but I have come to terms with the difference. It is different seeing the suspect and the family of the victims up close... There is a palpable thread of grief in that small room. It is hard NOT to be affected.

I'm not saying don't be affected... be affected... but the anxiety combined with the awfulizing is just stirring things up.

There aren't going to be any sunshiny details. Suffering for a second, a minute, 10 minutes or more isn't going to be any easier to hear... it's the reality. The worst case scenario has happened.

 

[news.talk]

I'm not saying don't be affected... be affected... but the anxiety combined with the awfulizing is just stirring things up.

There aren't going to be any sunshiny details. Suffering for a second, a minute, 10 minutes or more isn't going to be any easier to hear... it's the reality. The worst case scenario has happened.

What surprises me, is the number of people that STILL think that the Grandparents took off to Mexico with NO. It is actually a very prevalent theory here until YYC.

I do agree with you... North American's don't have any concept of the horrors that exist in many parts of the world. This case is mild in comparison to what takes place daily in some countries.

 

[LoisLane]

What surprises me, is the number of people that STILL think that the Grandparents took off to Mexico with NO. It is actually a very prevalent theory here until YYC.

I do agree with you... North American's don't have any concept of the horrors that exist in many parts of the world. This case is mild in comparison to what takes place daily in some countries.

It doesn't surprise me. The case is very mysterious and confusing. What would surprise me is if the family thinks the Mexico theory is a possibility.

Friends of ours just returned from Acapulco, Mexico and there son was grabbed by child traffickers. They were able to fight back and escape the perps. Apparently it is quite normal and people are told to hold firmly onto their children's wrists. The children are sold for organ transplants.

 

[Tealgrove]

I believe proof of death was found at the acreage. I also believe that the condition of the Likness house will provide additional evidence that a horrible physical crime was committed. Whatever blood was found in the home will tell them who was injured and my guess is that blood from all 3 will have been typed. I just remember the pictures of the cadaver dogs and the flags and the dogs sitting at certain points at the acreage. Those pictures sent shivers up my spine. I also agree that there are no bodies to find. Forensic evidence, whatever it may be, is what will be used to convince the jury that death has occurred.

I just want to know WHY?

 

[kittymeow]

It will be a tough one, that's for sure. I won't be able to look at the parents or *I* will start crying! There is a part of me that hopes that they were told how they died prior to this hearing, and that they will be somewhat prepared.

Sadly LaLa, I suspect that the details will be brutal, and their deaths were horrific. Here's hoping you are right though.

As soon as I learned that funerals were held for Alvin, Kathy, and Nathan, I figured that law enforcement divulged some info/evidence to the surviving family about their deaths. You just don't have a funeral for somebody if you aren't certain they are gone.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

It will be a tough one, that's for sure. I won't be able to look at the parents or *I* will start crying! There is a part of me that hopes that they were told how they died prior to this hearing, and that they will be somewhat prepared.

Sadly LaLa, I suspect that the details will be brutal, and their deaths were horrific. Here's hoping you are right though.

I think I've always been in denial about this story and what went down. I keep holding out that 'things aren't what they seem'…but I know better... with what little I do know about criminology, I know that realistically - it is probably not the case and things were horrific even if anyone was sleeping.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I know I'm highly skilled at the obvious, but if you're not prepared for the details, then perhaps you should avoid them.

There are equally horrific details occurring daily... just look at the news coming out of Iraq. Taking over, and controlling a city of people lends itself to equal atrocities.

It's an opportunity to learn, to study the criminal mind, to understand what goes into a crime, to delve into the motives, to see the cause and effect of action and inaction... and ultimately, to create empathy and sensitivity as well as a broader perspective.

I agree OOTD, I had heard (didn't even read myself, someone else told me) about a couple victim's stories from the Boston bombing and Batman theatre shooting and I was emotional with watery eyes! I'm a softy, I swear I got way more soft after having a child.

I can handle it, but will still get a little emotional (I'm used to it lol) It's important to know what human nature is capable and to learn about these murderous creatures. There are so many travesties such that you mentioned….Tsunamis, earthquakes, all the wars all over the world, disease, starvation they're all gut wrenching to hear about but important to hear the stories and not to forget as well. Hearing the stories always reminds me how precious life sure is.

 

[LoisLane]

" "I applied for a ban in publication because as this is just a preliminary inquiry we don’t want any of the evidence disseminated out, should this matter ever go to trial, so there isn't any contamination of any of the evidence for some proceeding down the road,” said Kim Ross, legal representative for Douglas Garland."
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/preliminary-hearing-begins-in-calgary-for-douglas-garland-1.2379996

Is it possible that defense thinks this may not make it to trial? Or that DG will plea?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I believe proof of death was found at the acreage. I also believe that the condition of the Likness house will provide additional evidence that a horrible physical crime was committed. Whatever blood was found in the home will tell them who was injured and my guess is that blood from all 3 will have been typed. I just remember the pictures of the cadaver dogs and the flags and the dogs sitting at certain points at the acreage. Those pictures sent shivers up my spine. I also agree that there are no bodies to find. Forensic evidence, whatever it may be, is what will be used to convince the jury that death has occurred.

I just want to know WHY?

Why is the forever unanswered question victims and the public want to know and I always want to know.

Whenever I would ask this to my family member whose job it was at a prison to interview/analyze these types of killers/criminals, I was always told it doesn't matter why and that they just kill, so don't even try to understand why. He told me that heinous crimes have been committed or something as stupid as not being served a drink, telling a guy to get lost or being told 'no', as it's a form of a snub, cut-down, humiliation. He said he interviewed so many inmates in prison for this... a guy would say something snide to the guy, the insulted guy would leave, come back with a baseball bat and murder a person over it.

Not saying DG is like this, and we don't know if his motive was different especially if there's thoughts he's killed before. But if he felt dissed at all by AL, maybe he seethed and seethed and went back to 'show him' and that was that. This case has other dimensions with the patent and family involvement so there could be tons of reasons that are actually strong motives I'm very curious what motive the prosecution will use.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

" "I applied for a ban in publication because as this is just a preliminary inquiry we don’t want any of the evidence disseminated out, should this matter ever go to trial, so there isn't any contamination of any of the evidence for some proceeding down the road,” said Kim Ross, legal representative for Douglas Garland."
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/preliminary-hearing-begins-in-calgary-for-douglas-garland-1.2379996

Is it possible that defense thinks this may not make it to trial? Or that DG will plea?

I would be shocked if DG gave a plea. That would be much better for the families not having to endure the trial and quoting the article on your post #743, this was interesting as well (BBM):

"Garland's lawyer, Kim Ross, says the case involves the most significant amount of disclosure he has ever seen."

From the article you posted: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ary-inquiry-begins-in-calgary-today-1.3078348

 

[LoisLane]

I would be shocked if DG gave a plea. That would be much better for the families not having to endure the trial and quoting the article on your post #743, this was interesting as well (BBM):

"Garland's lawyer, Kim Ross, says the case involves the most significant amount of disclosure he has ever seen."

From the article you posted: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ary-inquiry-begins-in-calgary-today-1.3078348

The comment above as well as the one I just quoted is concerning to me. What if it means a possibility that there is so much disclosure that is going to be thrown out leading to a significant gap in the evidence?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The comment above as well as the one I just quoted is concerning to me. What if it means a possibility that there is so much disclosure that is going to be thrown out leading to a significant gap in the evidence?

Hhmmm, I was thinking there was so much disclosure that this meant there was lots of evidence, but I see what you're thinking, you think it could mean the *opposite* and a lack of evidence. Now I don't know what to think!

I guess there have been many cases that are based on circumstantial evidence these days since criminals are possibly educating themselves from TV shows and ridding of forensics more diligently, hopefully all the dots are connected here.

 

[wendiesan]

FWIW. Here is my unofficial transcript of a CTV report from earlier today.


Unofficial Transcript of CTV News Report
Published Tuesday, May 19, 2015 5:09 am mdt
Last Updated Tuesday, May 19, 2014 6:46pm mdt

This transcript is not connected with any of the parties involved in the production of the story or those people who are part of the story. All errors are my own.

CTV Calgary: Accused in triple murder in Court
http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/preliminar...land-1.2379996

News anchor: Tara Nelson=TN
Reporter: Ina Sidhu=IS
Nathan's Father: Rod O'Brien=RO
Nathan's Mother: Jennifer O'Brien=JO
Defence Attorney: Kim Ross=KR

TN: The man accused of killing a Calgary couple and their five year old grandson was in court today for the start of his preliminary hearing. The bodies of Nathan O'Brien and Kathy and Alvin Liknes have never been found. Now, eleven months later, the preliminary hearing is underway.

Ina Sidhu reports.

IS: For weeks, their photos stayed in the headlines. Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Alvin and Kathy Liknes, vanished from the couple's southwest home on June 30, 2014. Nathan had slept over.

RO (in clip from 2014 CPD presser) Whoever has Nathan, please find it in your heart to drop off our little angel, Nathan, to which he can be rescued and reunited with his brothers and his family.

IS: An exhaustive search led police to City landfills and an acreage north of Calgary. The property belongs to the parents of Douglas Garland, a distant relative of Alvin Liknes through marriage.

The 55year old was arrested two weeks after the disappearance and charged with two counts of first degree murder for the Likneses, and one count of second degree murder for Nathan. He's been in custody ever since.

Police say there was evidence of a violent incident in the Liknes home but haven't revealed the motive.

jO (in clip from 2014 CPD presser): Mummy and Daddy love you more than anything in this world, and we can't be with you right now, but, the best people that can be with you, other than us, is your grandparents. I know that--I know Grandma's holding you so tightly right now.

IS: In March, officers returned to the Garland property to look for more evidence. Now, Garland is back in court appearing older and thinner and wearing a blue prison jumpsuit.

The Crown must now lay out its case and a judge will decide if there is enough evidence to put Garland on trial for the crimes. The details can't be reported because of a publication ban.

KR: We don't want any of the evidence disseminated out, should this matter ever go to trial, so there isn't any contamination of any of the evidence evidence for, for some proceeding down the road.

TN: And Ina is live at the Calgary Court Centre tonight. Ina, this will be an especially difficult time for those close to the victims.

IS: That's right, Tara. Nathan's parents were at the courthouse today. Family and friends packed the courtroom, of course. This is a case that has gripped the entire city for almost a year now. We can't tell you the details of what the testimony that was in court today because of that publication ban, but those family and friends that are close to the victims are hoping to get some answers.

Now, Tara, this preliminary hearing is expected to last two weeks. It should wrap up by next Friday. Tara.

TN: OK. Ina Sidhu reporting. Thank you.

 

[kaley]

Yeah, can't imagine. I hope Nathan didn't suffer, I imagine the adults did sadly, but I really hope the child didn't witness or realize what was happening.This story will always haunt me because of little Nathan being caught in a murderer's demented line of fire.

I feel exactly the same way. I know I have said this before but I have a 6 year old, curly haired little boy, his birthday is very close to Nathan's. Both boys play hockey and soccer and my son was also born in Calgary. I feel like the two of them could have been friends, team mates etc. if we had not moved from Calgary. This story really hits home for me. I only think about my son hurting and start to cry. I can not imagine what JO and RO are going through and will go through as they hear about their sweet little boy's last moments. This is all just too sad.
I think I need to know what happened because I want to hear that Nathan did not suffer. I hope that is true.

 

[winnnancy]

-source.ca/article/know-rules-about-publication-ban-covering-courts

It appears that only certain information is protected by the publication ban but not all? Did any WSers attend who are not members of the media?
Can the General mood, direction things are heading be generally discussed? For example; mentioning that there is biological evidence from one or many locations confirming death without getting into specifics about what that might be?
With friends and family of the victims attending, wouldn't there be some dissemination of information expected? It doesn't sound like its a closed courtroom.

 

[winnnancy]

Thanks. I can see how it would apply to a public forum.

 

[otto]

Hello

I hope no one has been sitting in the preliminary hearing and spilling on a forum. The preliminary hearing is closed, and no one who has sat in court during the preliminary hearing can comment; not even on a forum.

When is the trial?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Hello

I hope no one has been sitting in the preliminary hearing and spilling on a forum. The preliminary hearing is closed, and no one who has sat in court during the preliminary hearing can comment; not even on a forum.

When is the trial?

The judge has to rule there is enough evidence to warrant a trial before setting any date. The prelim was expected to be 2 weeks... how long the judge takes to decide after that is anyone's guess.