Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #5

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Pickton is a totally different scenario. He picked up women on the street and took them back to his farm to kill them which is also where he buried them. It's not like he killed them on the street, loaded their bodies into his vehicle and then took them home to bury them. Plus he sought out one victim at a time and unfortunately many of them went with him willingly.

There were no visible bodies/parcels that could be people in the back of the truck in the pic that was released and it seems risky that anyone would try to transport 3 bodies in an open flat bed. I don't know about Alberta but in Ontario, I'd think there would be a risk of hitting a pothole and them go flying out of the back.

I doubt that any perpetrator would use AL's truck to move bodies/people because of the risk of leaving transfer evidence in AL's vehicle that could identify them as well as it would be risky to leave their own vehicle at th scene while driving off somewhere in AL's vehicle. If the green truck was involved, I bet you anything there was a second vehicle driven by at least one other perpetrator

The point being that missing persons force investigations into infinite dead ends. It increases time for the perp to destroy evidence. It creates reasonable doubt for trial. It makes warrants complicated. Had Pickton dumped the bodies where someone would find them, THAT would have focussed the investigation.

If we assume there was more than one picture of the truck, then we can assume the picture released could have been from BEFORE the alleged abduction. I like the second perp, second vehicle theory. The pothole thing seems a bit far fetched, especially if they are transported in articles from the house. I've been in Calgary at 2 and 3 in the morning... it's a big city, but as quiet as a small town. The highway system is easy to reach and quick to get far, fast.

 

[Carli]

Pickton is a totally different scenario. He picked up women on the street and took them back to his farm to kill them which is also where he buried them. It's not like he killed them on the street, loaded their bodies into his vehicle and then took them home to bury them. Plus he sought out one victim at a time and unfortunately many of them went with him willingly.

There were no visible bodies/parcels that could be people in the back of the truck in the pic that was released and it seems risky that anyone would try to transport 3 bodies in an open flat bed. I don't know about Alberta but in Ontario, I'd think there would be a risk of hitting a pothole and them go flying out of the back.

I doubt that any perpetrator would use AL's truck to move bodies/people because of the risk of leaving transfer evidence in AL's vehicle that could identify them as well as it would be risky to leave their own vehicle at th scene while driving off somewhere in AL's vehicle. If the green truck was involved, I bet you anything there was a second vehicle driven by at least one other perpetrator

By the way, for the record, and if anybody is interested in this absoultely hideous and completely unrelated crime, Picton's Pig Farm, aka Piggy Palace, was thoroughly searched several times without success, before the first remnants of bodies were found. Of course various members of the police and local business and political figures were known to be entertained by the "exotic dancers" scooped up from the lower east side, in the weekly "Piggy Palace Good Times Society" government registered charity. Listen. You don't want to know, imo. This is sick, sick, sick almost beyond belief. If you insist, get out your barf bag and check the benign, cleaned up for publication, account below.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/robert_pickton/6.html

 

[Amster]

I think it's here:

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/...2005/03/03/garland-v-m-n-r-2005-tcc-176.shtml

Thanks!

 

[otto]

Again, not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm willing to bet that 99.9 percent of the time when you pull out your gun and shoot someone, regardless of how old you or your target may be, you intention is to *kill* that person. Then again, I only carry kleenex, lint, keys, and the occasionally dime in my pocket. Here's what you won't find in my pocket. You won't find a fully loaded illegal 9MM Baretta with its safety catch off, so obviously my information is total speculation and MHO only. I could also add further speculation that this particular person knows a very, very, very good defense lawyer. IMO. IMHO. Sorry for the transferal thingie. Just expressing MHO. And, oh yes, the court confirmed *accident* truly did involve AL's daughter. No supposition required. IMO.

In my humble opinion (IMHO), was it an accident that a woman's breast implants saved her life? She owed $400 to a much older man and, after driving around for the afternoon, his baretta accidentally discharged when she tried to get rid of him?

 

[otto]

The victims were last seen alive on June 28/29. The Calgary Stampede opened on July 4. There is an awful lot of people, activity, business, tourists, etc associated with the Stampede. The city is is very busy at this time of year, population increases, perhaps more crime goes along with that ?

It was Sunday/Monday, so June 29/30. Monday they were reported missing. Tuesday was Canada Day.

 

[otto]

But when men murder their wives, it's usually to conceal that there was a crime/that a crime happened where it happened so that they can wait a few hours and place a panicked call to relatives/friends asking if their wife has been seen by anyone.

In this case it was apparently evident right off the bat that something violent happened in that house that would suggest that at least two of the three of them didn't leave of their own accord. Why move 3 bodies to hide that there was a crime if it's already evident that there has been a crime? Plus it would take considerable effort for one or even two persons to remove two adult bodies from the residence. Seems too risky.

It seems more likely to me that they were taken somewhere for a specific purpose. What that purpose may be, I have no idea. But I have been thinking, it seems lime the L's were making some efforts to remove their traceability. Renting a home rather than owning would remove them from the land registry in Calgary, differing stories about moving to Mexico/Edmonton, where they'd go first/for how long, kind of makes me wonder if there was someone they were trying to get away from.

In addition to business connections in the US, there's also a company in Panama. It's a shell company with four ... what appear to be ... pseudo-employees. The link must be buried deep, as I saw it in the first couple of days after this happened. This was a "we're leaving the city", "we're leaving the province", "we're leaving the country", "we're moving up North", "we're moving to Edmonton", "we're moving to Mexico", and so on type of dis-information session. Even the son was vague about where they were going and what they were doing. This looks like someone that wanted to vanish, perhaps in connection with the June 25 bankruptcy declaration of Winter oil/gas company. Perhaps they weren't as bankrupt as it appeared on the surface ... I mean, there have been at least four other companies running at the same time ... and this could be interpretted as a disappearing act ... except for the violence medical distress, missing grandparents, and missing five year old child.

Perhaps the perp sensed that and wasn't going to let it happen. I wonder if there are financial losses suffered by the perp and, if so, how much.

 

[Stirner]

I think you've been misdiagnosed, as I find it hard to believe someone with ADHD, especially "severe" ADHD, could compose a post as long and coherent as yours. The internet is full of people who clearly have ADHD based on their nonsensical postings, but you don't fit the profile. I'm no expert, of course, and the diagnosis is controversial among experts anyway, but FWIW that's my observation...

Long time lurker, first time poster.


I have severe ADHD and have read a lot about it so I think I can shed some light on a few things:

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Thank you. I'll see if I can morph this into the aerial footprint.

Sometimes you can locate photos of the home from old MLS real estate listings using the home address and google even if KL was the real estate agent she would have advertised likely. I had a home just like this one very similar and there would be stairs likely located in the centre of the home going up from the main living area + kitchen eating area up to the bedrooms and bath on the second level which is to say the level over the garage and similarly the stairs going down into the basement.

 

[Sillybilly]

I wonder if the perp is the type of person that doesn't excuse any wrongs, real or perceived, from others. Maybe he thinks that he got the raw end of the deal. Perhaps he thinks that even though he might be good at math and science, he never gets a break. The act of approaching, injuring, abducting, abducting family including a 5 year old child, and making vanish seems very sadistic.

The missing person's need to be found soon. In the event that they are deceased, to get a good understanding of the cause of death, they need to be found soon. Temperatures of 30C, rain, animals, and fresh growth will make more difficult to identify cause of death. Is manner of death something like "homicide", and cause of death would be something like "knife"?

Sorry if already answered ... In your example otto, yes MOD would be homicide, but COD would not be "knife" (as in the weapon used). COD would be more along the lines of something like "hemorraghic shock", "hemmorhage due to stab wounds" to describe the actual pathological process leading to death.

 

[otto]

What if the grandparents really did want to disappear and contacted Garland about false identification papers. What if money was owed, the grandparents believed it was water under the bridge, but Garland saw this as an opportunity to get even for some perceived wrong. Wasn't he described as polite, overly kind in compensating (offered to pay for beaker he broke), quiet at Thanksgiving dinner when his sister's inlaws (the Liknes grandparents) visited, bright, but prone to psychological weakness (documented breakdowns?

 

[otto]

Sorry if already answered ... In your example otto, yes MOD would be homicide, but COD would not be "knife" (as in the weapon used). COD would be more along the lines of something like "hemorraghic shock", "hemmorhage due to stab wounds" to describe the actual pathological process leading to death.

If bodies were removed from the house, then, due to the elements, it is best if they are found soon in order to determine cause of death.

 

[Cherchri]

Dangeross, I haven't had time to read through the last three pages of posts. I apologise if I quizzed you as to what you saw and when. I had read about two sightings of the ford f150 and was merely (lazily) trying to determine which of the two you were. It seems things have run a bit out of control. There were two sightings I referenced and yours was not the one that occurred at 4.30am, describing the driver as someone who resembled the grandfather.

 

[otto]

Sometimes you can locate photos of the home from old MLS real estate listings using the home address and google even if KL was the real estate agent she would have advertised likely. I had a home just like this one very similar and there would be stairs likely located in the centre of the home going up from the main living area + kitchen eating area up to the bedrooms and bath on the second level which is to say the level over the garage and similarly the stairs going down into the basement.

The house was last sold in Dec 2013, but I couldn't find a listing for it. I wondered if it was a private sale. The last sale before that was 17 years ago ... pretty much before the internet was born.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

In amongst all the sleuthing, debating and speculating... much of which I'm guilty of... I just wanted to remind everyone that this is about 3 real people, that may be in need of help.

In this day of people being kept in bunkers and found, and other sordid tales, I'd still like to think there's a chance they can be found alive. When they erroneously reported today, that 3 ambulances arrived at the property, I'll admit I felt that flash of hope and relief that they were actually found!

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts and efforts!

 

[bakerlady]

I hear you, Andromeda. But how do we know for sure that Alvin wasn't an upstanding citizen? Did I miss something?
I know Calgary/Edmonton intimately, and know for sure that the 'new money' families of the oil patch do not own furniture from the 1980's, or live in homes that have never been remodelled. In Calgary, kids throw away last year's bike when they get a new one. Successful people don't overprice a plant they have had for 20 years, and try to sell it for extra $$(as per the L's Kijiji ad).
The real estate business as well as multi-level marketing, attracts dreamers, ... many entrepreneurs are gamblers, looking ahead and highly motivated to make their simple or financially troubled lives better. They DO tap into their 'centre of influence, or warm market' and that is a huge part of it all of the above mentioned businesses. People are intrigued by the idea of creating wealth in these particular industries. Who has_ever_ heard of someone hitting the jackpot in MLM?
I can't speak for the oil business, but know that people with a lot more financial clout than AL have lost in that particular game, and recently.
I don't believe the L's were walking away wealthy, as much as they may have wanted to give that impression.
I think of them as 'wannabe' entrepreneurs who used the value of their home as leverage, and it just didn't work out.

I have many theories in this case but this post points to my main theory. What if AL was not happy with his financial situation and he snapped? I have seen about 10 stories on the national news today about 'murder suicides' concerning 'wealthy' families. So it is not far fetched at all. In fact it seems to be more and more common these days or at least it is being reported more often.

 

[otto]

The point being that missing persons force investigations into infinite dead ends. It increases time for the perp to destroy evidence. It creates reasonable doubt for trial. It makes warrants complicated. Had Pickton dumped the bodies where someone would find them, THAT would have focussed the investigation.

If we assume there was more than one picture of the truck, then we can assume the picture released could have been from BEFORE the alleged abduction. I like the second perp, second vehicle theory. The pothole thing seems a bit far fetched, especially if they are transported in articles from the house. I've been in Calgary at 2 and 3 in the morning... it's a big city, but as quiet as a small town. The highway system is easy to reach and quick to get far, fast.

Actually, based on the shadows under the truck, and the fact that it is heading West, it looks like the photo is taken at about 4-4:15AM. It's quite possible that the perp's vehicle was parked on the street, and the victim's vehicle was used to drive the victims to another location. The victim's vehicle wasn't taken for forensic analysis until July 4, when we know the surveillance video results were in ... as that is the day that info about the green truck was released. The green truck was seen more than once in video surveillance from neighbours and local businesses. That would be a second vehicle, but one perp.

Look at the long shadows going forward on the bottom truck. The sun is rising in the East, truck is travelling West, that should be just after 4AM. Sunrise was at about 5:25 that morning.

 

[Sillybilly]

Still searching for the report of DG and a diagnosis of ADHD...is there one?

from:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/07/09/douglas-garland_n_5571677.html

A federal tax court ruling later in 2005 detailed more about Garland's past, indicating that he went to medical school for a year but left after having a mental breakdown. It also said he suffers from attention deficit disorder.

 

[otto]

I have many theories in this case but this post points to my main theory. What if AL was not happy with his financial situation and he snapped? I have seen about 10 stories on the national news today about 'murder suicides' concerning 'wealthy' families. So it is not far fetched at all. In fact it seems to be more and more common these days or at least it is being reported more often.

Let's suppose that Alvin snapped. How did he leave the property, and where is his wife and grandson?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Actually, based on the shadows under the truck, and the fact that it is heading West, it looks like the photo is taken at about 4-4:15AM. It's quite possible that the perp's vehicle was parked on the street, and the victim's vehicle was used to drive the victims to another location. The victim's vehicle wasn't taken for forensic analysis until July 4, when we know the surveillance video results were in ... as that is the day that info about the green truck was released. The green truck was seen more than once in video surveillance from neighbours and local businesses. That would be a second vehicle, but one perp.

Look at the long shadows going forward on the bottom truck. The sun is rising in the East, truck is travelling West, that should be just after 4AM. Sunrise was at about 5:25 that morning.

Back to the debate... look at the shadow behind the car, and the lack of shadows elsewhere... darkness was after 10pm that night, so it could be around 9:30.

 

[Kittymama]

No way would it be that light out at 4 in the morning.