Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #8

[stan laurel]

bassano dam would be another spot virtually impossible to search.

 

[stan laurel]

Not saying the cops are wrong but maybe they're up to something with DG, it's a longshot but here goes; so I was watching the balloon release and there was RO and family as well as one of AL's son, who, didn't seem distraught at all, quite composed (but everyone reacts differently as we know). RO and NO's younger brother were there too, which seemed strange considering the gravity of this latest news, which lead me to thinking about a Hitchcock film where a woman appears on a guys doorstep claiming to be his long lost wife. Long to short, the husband finally loses it on the woman shouting at her that she's not his wife as he killed his wife. yes, the film is convoluted, but let's say (and pray) that this is being done to give al and kl room to think that they are free to roam. I found it odd that they arrested dg at 1:30am and show up to a bevy of reporters, also, you figure they would have come through the back way. I am secretly hoping that it's all not so sinister and there are to very embarrassed granparents with their grandson trying to figure out how to correct all this.

 

[Sillybilly]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...than-o-brien-kathy-and-alvin-liknes-1.2707268

.... I mean, to lay a, to lay a charge of first degree murder--I mean, that tells us right away and especially it's kind of unusual they would lay two counts of first degree and one count of second degree. That's kind of unusual. Which tells me, I , we could speculate a little bit that one of two things happened.

When he went there, it's assumed that the police theory is that he went there that night to abduct and murder the two, the couple, not expecting to find the grandson, Nathan there, and so there was no premeditation with regards to the murder of Nathan. Secondly, first degree murder is also a--there's a schedule of offences that if a homicide takes place during the commission of these offences, first degree murder is a proper offence. One of them is kidnapping and the other one is forcible confinement. That's another one. There's. there's some others too, but those are two.

So, maybe there was forcible confinement of the couple, however they took their grandson with them. There was really no forcible confinement there. That's why it was a second degree murder charge. So it's very unusual that the charges are laid two counts of first and one of second. Especially without the bodies ...

Thank you wendiesan. That ^^ is what I was getting at earlier. LE has not confirmed the family was murdered in the home, therefore it can only be speculation. They also have not confirmed they were removed from the home while alive (other than initial indications seemed to point in that direction) therefore it can only be speculation. IMO, they've possibly gone with premeditation (which Chief Hanson did refer to and it must therefore be evident), until such time as they can determine if elements of forcible confinement occurred in order to lay that additional charge. Either scenario is possible and either one supports the reasons for only a 2nd degree charge in Nathan's death.

 

[Snoop Sister]

Well, it depends what the Alberta court system is like, and how backlogged they are. Having said that, and knowing this will be a high profile case, it could be anywhere from two to three years. It will also very much depend on how fast the disclosure comes out from the Crown's office, and I'm assuming our suspect will get lawyered up again quickly - possibly through legal aid. They will have volumes of disclosure, and that will all take time to trickle out. I don't see him getting bail this time around either. He breached his bail condition, and that pretty much takes care of that for DG, and I don't think anyone would stand up to try and bail him out anyway. So, it will also depend on how he elects to be tried (I don't picture him wanting to plead guilty). So, by a judge alone, judge and jury, etc. Trial dates will have to be set, but that can't happen until all the disclosure is received. I'd be very surprised if it was before the two year mark of being charged, but they just may make that happen, because the family will certainly be in agony until then, and then they'll have to prepare themselves to hear the details and all the evidence come out. One can hope too, that the bodies will be found before then.

Addendum: Oh, and because it was national news, they may of course be looking to hold it in a different court jurisdiction, where they might think it wasn't as well publicized or in the local news so much.

If he chooses Judge and Jury, his lawyer will I 'm sure ask for a change of venue.

 

[otto]

If he chooses Judge and Jury, his lawyer will I 'm sure ask for a change of venue.

As this topic slips down the list of current topics, I hope that Nathan will be remembered with butterflies.

There is no such thing as "change of venue" in Canada except after "tunnel vision" (see: Redrum). It is impossible to contaminate 1.3 million potential jury members and require a change of venue in Calgary.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I think that Garland was festering over what he believed to be a stolen opportunity for many years.
What he did to the child is beyond redemption.

ANOTHER theory - Devil's Advocate
DG probably knew the Likess were leaving soon to Mexico and knew of the estate sale and possibly went there to try to get money from them. What if he had no intent to kill them but a scuffle broke out between Al and him. He put Al into a state of medical distress, and then decided to finish it off. In this scenario there was no intent. Hence, it would be hard to prove first degree murder.

 

[otto]

What an absolutely horrific event where a couple was targeted by an unstable man and their grandchild was caught in the crossfire. Now, Nathan O'Brien is deceased.

 

[Snoop Sister]

As this topic slips down the list of current topics, I hope that Nathan will be remembered with butterflies.

There is no such thing as "change of venue" in Canada except after "tunnel vision" (see: Redrum). It is impossible to contaminate 1.3 million potential jury members and require a change of venue in Calgary.

In the Stafford murder a change of venue was granted.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/stafford-murder-trial-gets-change-of-venue-1.1031988

 

[otto]

ANOTHER theory - Devil's Advocate
DG probably knew the Likess were leaving soon to Mexico and knew of the estate sale and possibly went there to try to get money from them. What if he had no intent to kill them but a scuffle broke out between Al and him. He put Al into a state of medical distress, and then decided to finish it off. In this scenario there was no intent. Hence, it would be hard to prove first degree murder.

I agree that Douglas Garland knew that the Alvin Liknes grandparents were about to skip town. "Leaving town" was apparently posted on social media, sales advertisements, and possibly casinos for days prior to the sale which advertised as a "leaving the country" "estate sale" ... everything but the kitchen sink is for sale at estate sales ... or was this a garage sale ... which was it? Was everything being sold, or was the plan to move some furniture to Evansburg? How did the bankruptcy factor into the office contents? I keep wondering if the bedroom and kitchen contents were sold and removed during the sale.

I think that the only way that Garland could have removed a 6 foot 200 pound Alvin Liknes from the crime scene was if Alvin was invited to step into a truck to talk about the problem ... and there he was attacked. I can't see that scrawny arrested man Garland having the strength to lift a 200 pound man. He looks aged for his 54 years.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I agree that Douglas Garland knew that the Alvin Liknes grandparents were about to skip town. "Leaving town" was apparently posted on social media, sales advertisements, and possibly casinos for days prior to the sale which advertised as a "leaving the country" "estate sale" ... everything but the kitchen sink is for sale at estate sales ... or was this a garage sale ... which was it? Was everything being sold, or was the plan to move some furniture to Evansburg? How did the bankruptcy factor into the office contents? I keep wondering if the bedroom and kitchen contents were sold and removed during the sale.

I think that the only way that Garland could have removed a 6 foot 200 pound Alvin Liknes from the crime scene was if Alvin was invited to step into a truck to talk about the problem ... and there he was attacked. I can't see that scrawny arrested man Garland having the strength to lift a 200 pound man. He looks aged for his 54 years.

Yes, I certainly buy this scenario more so than DG arriving after everyone was asleep. Regardless of the scenarios, my heart goes to the O'Brien and the Liknes family.

 

[otto]

In the Stafford murder a change of venue was granted.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/stafford-murder-trial-gets-change-of-venue-1.1031988

The Tori Stafford murder happened in Woodstock, a small town. Calgary has more than a million people, most of whom couldn't care less about missing children. What does the change of venue want ... a trial n Airdrie, Cocharne? Is that population less inclined to be influenced than 12 people in a population of more than a million?

 

[Snoop Sister]

The Tori Stafford murder happened in Woodstock, a small town. Calgary has more than a million people, most of whom couldn't care less about missing children. What does the change of venue want ... a trial n Airdrie, Cocharne? Is that population less inclined to be influenced than 12 people in a population of more than a million?

Lol at Airdrie. I was simply responding to your post saying there is no such thing as a "change of venue" in Canada. And, i gave the example of the Stafford murder. Perhaps, I misunderstood your post?

 

[otto]

Lol at Airdrie. I was simply responding to your post saying there is no such thing as a "change of venue" in Canada. And, i gave the example of the Stafford murder. Perhaps, I misunderstood your post?

The Tori Stafford case might have moved from a small town like Woodstock to a larger town or city. A city like Calgary with a population of 1.3 million can find 12 impartial jurors in the event that the accused does not choose Court of Queen's Bench Judge alone.

 

[Snoop Sister]

The Tori Stafford case might have moved from a small town like Woodstock to a larger town or city. A city like Calgary with a population of 1.3 million can find 12 impartial jurors in the event that the accused does not choose Court of Queen's Bench Judge alone.

Personally I don't know anyone who wouldn't be impartial to such a horrific crime especially when it involves an innocent five year old boy.

 

[winnnancy]

I agree that Douglas Garland knew that the Alvin Liknes grandparents were about to skip town. "Leaving town" was apparently posted on social media, sales advertisements, and possibly casinos for days prior to the sale which advertised as a "leaving the country" "estate sale" ... everything but the kitchen sink is for sale at estate sales ... or was this a garage sale ... which was it? Was everything being sold, or was the plan to move some furniture to Evansburg? How did the bankruptcy factor into the office contents? I keep wondering if the bedroom and kitchen contents were sold and removed during the sale.

I think that the only way that Garland could have removed a 6 foot 200 pound Alvin Liknes from the crime scene was if Alvin was invited to step into a truck to talk about the problem ... and there he was attacked. I can't see that scrawny arrested man Garland having the strength to lift a 200 pound man. He looks aged for his 54 years.

IMO if he wanted cooperation from the victims, would he not only have to control one that AL would be inclined to protect? NO or KL? Perhaps in this scenario, by the time it occurred to AL to fight, it was too late? ( he may have forced them further into the house where escape would be less likely?

 

[Tealgrove]

I think that Garland was festering over what he believed to be a stolen opportunity for many years.
What he did to the child is beyond redemption.

Dead on right! That's exactly what I think as well.

 

[Tealgrove]

Personally I don't know anyone who wouldn't be impartial to such a horrific crime especially when it involves an innocent five year old boy.

The Paul Bernardo Trial was moved from St. Catharines to Toronto. The thinking was that in St. Catharines the community had been gripped for YEARS with the murders. Also, the nature of the murders being sexually motivated would not sit well with a jury in a smaller rural type community. Move it to Toronto where the jury pool was not intimately aware of the rumours and would be more "accepting" if that's the right word, of the type of murder committed and Bernardo might have a shot of a not guilty verdict. Toronto is more cosmopolitan, serious crime happens daily and it wouldn't be their first rodeo with a heinous crime. A jury could be put together.

I think the defence will ask for a change of venue but in reality the only places that would work are Calgary, Edmonton and maybe Lethbridge.

 

[julydarling]

True, but it's also really trying terrain and there are so many visitors to almost any stretch at this time of year that it would be very hard to be discreet. He would also know that farmland/farmers are also quite meticulous and have their eyes on the field at all times.

Agreed - this area (I was born in Drumheller, have lived in Calgary almost my whole life) has places far closer to dump evidence/bodies. I cannot forsee him taking the risk of driving 1.5 hours with 3 bodies and god knows what else. The highways are patrolled by RCMP, sherrifs etc.

In my own personal opinion - he has destroyed any evidence with chemicals. This man had access to a lot of serious stuff. I hope that I am very wrong and have just seen too many episodes of Breaking Bad, but I have a feeling that bodies will never be recovered.

Also - hello! First time poster and have been reading the previous threads for the past 3 days or so to catch up. Nice to finally "talk" to you all!

 

[appletree729]

ANOTHER theory - Devil's Advocate
DG probably knew the Likess were leaving soon to Mexico and knew of the estate sale and possibly went there to try to get money from them. What if he had no intent to kill them but a scuffle broke out between Al and him. He put Al into a state of medical distress, and then decided to finish it off. In this scenario there was no intent. Hence, it would be hard to prove first degree murder.

All my own opinion - I was thinking that the reason they went with 1st degree murder charges was that they had probably found some evidence at the airdrie property that led LE to believe it was planned. Second degree for sweet NO since the suspect (I don't even want to put their two names in the same sentence, I am so disgusted) hadn't planned on him being there… And I agree with an earlier post - way back - that stated that there really is no such thing as 'the wrong place at the wrong time' in a case such as this. Nathan's parents made no mistakes and did nothing wrong in leaving their son with his beloved grandparents for a sleepover. He was in the right place - with his family who loved him.

It was DG who was in the WRONG place. And this is nobody's else's fault.

My deepest, most heartfelt prayers go out to the Liknes and O'Brien families.

 

[Cherchri]

I agree that Douglas Garland knew that the Alvin Liknes grandparents were about to skip town. "Leaving town" was apparently posted on social media, sales advertisements, and possibly casinos for days prior to the sale which advertised as a "leaving the country" "estate sale" ... everything but the kitchen sink is for sale at estate sales ... or was this a garage sale ... which was it? Was everything being sold, or was the plan to move some furniture to Evansburg? How did the bankruptcy factor into the office contents? I keep wondering if the bedroom and kitchen contents were sold and removed during the sale.

I think that the only way that Garland could have removed a 6 foot 200 pound Alvin Liknes from the crime scene was if Alvin was invited to step into a truck to talk about the problem ... and there he was attacked. I can't see that scrawny arrested man Garland having the strength to lift a 200 pound man. He looks aged for his 54 years.

A sleeping 200 pound man could be easily subdued?