CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #1

[dotr]

I wonder if AG might have played the song " Amazing Grace" loud enough to attract attention from one who reacted strongly to it's religious theme.Was it a fluke that song, was the last email AG sent her neighbour, or a message?

 

[Missizzy]

I fully realize that there are some huge questions about the case I posted above. This was at the height at what has come to be known at the ritual satanic abuse hysteria. I have my own theories and am not so certain it was all hysteria. Just open up our Spotlight on Children forum and look at the atrocities meted out against our children each and every day in the name of prurient lust, drug money, child , and yes--the occult. Often the perps are well known and well respected community members who no one suspected.

I readily admit that suggestibility can occur and that children's stories can become more bizarre as time goes on if the interviews are not handled extremely carefully. But these girls were only 4 and 7. That's tremendously young to provide those vivid details and to thoroughly convince a judge and a team of child abuse specialists that they were telling the truth.

The fact is that satanic-linked murders and groups exist. I was alerted the other day by another poster about a new book by a proponent of satanism, Winter Laake and "The Satanic Paradigm". As is the creed of satanism, violence is not called for unless one crosses your path. Laake is said to go into far greater detail about Anton LaVey's form of satanism and to take it even a step further, describing rituals.

We know that teens and others searching for "meaning and direction" have long sought out the occult (black magic) and satanism (and note that I am NOT referring to the path of Wicca). It's often called "dabbling". To me dabbling means attempting to cast spells, lighting candles, wearing robes and chanting under the full moon in the cemetery. That hurts no one. However, when satanism moves past that point and murder, rape, torture, and dismemberment ensue, it is no longer dabbling, IMO.

The US FBI has made it exceedingly clear that they do not believe that satanism is a component in crimes. I beg to differ. We have men and women who have confessed to these crimes. We've found crime scenes. I support examining the motive and the precursors just as I do the forensics.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

The The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.



Now back to that barn......

 

[Missizzy]

I think the emailing of the song is a true mystery, dotr. Are you saying that the killer might have entered her home and she played it loudly to deter him or that she turned up the volume to alert neighbors? My computer sound doesn't go high enough to be heard by a neighbor (when I lived in town).

Does anyone know if the song was sent at a higher than typical volume? Is the "Amazing Grace" video which was posted here, the actual one which friends received?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I wonder if AG might have played the song " Amazing Grace" loud enough to attract attention from one who reacted strongly to it's religious theme.Was it a fluke that song, was the last email AG sent her neighbour, or a message?

I'm also confused/concerned about the choice of song.

Questions:
Do we know that AG played the song at home on a CD player?
Or do we just know that AG sent the tune in an e-mail to a neighbour?
"Amazing Grace" is often played at funerals - so was someone threatening AG with assault/murder?
Was AG simply 'intuitive' and 'felt' that someone had been watching her every move?
Was the killer already in the house holding her captive and he told her to go about her regular business so as to not alert neighbours? (Hence, the e-mailing of that song).
AG called her friends and said she was unwell for the final coffee group meeting - was AG forced to cancel the coffee group?
Was AG a compassionate person who was trying to help the killer with the song?

So many questions............

I'm going to look up the lyrics to "Amazing Grace" and I'll post them here.

ETA: OK here are the lyrics:

-----------
Amazing Grace Lyrics

John Newton (1725-1807)
Stanza 6 anon.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.


T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.


Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.


The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.


Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.




Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

 

[Missizzy]

So much could be read into the choice of "holiday" music that Ms. Gleave sent out. You are correct, "Amazing Grace" is typically sung at funerals and is also a favorite in churches and rescue missions, due to the part about saving a "wretch like me". Our whole family gathered around our baby granddaughter as she passed and sang it. The midwife started humming it and we all joined in and sang her on over. Her middle name was Grace, however.

The story of how the song was written is interesting too. It's a unique piece of music, with some hidden meanings.

But Ms. Gleave might have simply liked the tune and thought it would be "friendly" to send it out for a New Years greeting. It could be nothing at all or it could be terribly ominous.

FWIW, "I was blind, but now I see" makes me think of a government hit killing. But by all accounts, the murder seems to be an ambush. How could she have foreseen the murder and had time to cue up and send that particular song to her friends before she was murdered? The only way I could see this as being a "message" is if she'd been held hostage for those days she said she was ill. That's an awful thought.

 

[dotr]

Previously posted.
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...arn-public-after-horrific-killing-of-woman-73
The last email Ferguson received from Gleave was on Monday night, when she passed on a link to a version of “Amazing Grace.”

That is the last time police believe anyone who knew Gleave had contact with her.

No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fergusons’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.

Just a thought, one that may have been expressed earlier by another poster, but I was thinking in terms of, either DLS walked by as AG looked (and possibly listened) first, to a link for the song and became enraged?, engaged?,or he ( for whatever reason) was already in the house, when the song link was sent.
The reason this somewhat outlandish thought occured to me, was because of a personal experience I once had with a "homeless"( he lived in the ravine) man, in my area.
I had been playing a song on the computer at home whilst vaccuming,so it might have been louder than usual.Anyway ,later when I left the house to pick up my kids from school,this very creepy looking guy with whom I never had any previous interaction, rode his bike very slowly by me, loudly singing the very song i had been listening to,with great emphasis on the song's chorus -" Mama, I never meant to hurt you".

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

:twocents:This might be crazy on my part but I'm thinking the killer (DLS?) was in Audrey's house and had her held captive/ambushed her in order to enter the house are twofold:

1. I think e-mailing the song was a 'signal'.

2. Most importantly LE are still asking for the public to let them know where and when anyone saw DLS prior to/around the time of Audrey's murder.

Point #2 indicates that LE wants to nail down DLS' activities at that time.

 

[dotr]

That is what I was wondering, NO Stone Unturned!

Separate from that, I see what Missizzy was getting at with the satanism thing.
Although anything like that creeps me out and I don't like "to go there", a woman I know( a former American) who is a very well respected professional,told me stories of satanism and child abuse in some U.S. towns, if that info. came from anyone else, I would have thought they were exaggerating or imagining things!
These days, it seems that anytime you hear some outrageous whispers about something,it just might be true.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

That is what I was wondering, NO Stone Unturned!

Separate from that, I see what Missizzy was getting at with the satanism thing.
Although anything like that creeps me out and I don't like "to go there", a woman I know( a former American) who is a very well respected professional,told me stories of satanism and child abuse in some U.S. towns, if that info. came from anyone else, I would have thought they were exaggerating or imagining things!
These days, it seems that anytime you hear some outrageous whispers about something,it just might be true.

Well, very true. There's a park about a block from our house and the practice of satanism DOES go on there especially around Hallowe'en.:maddening: There's also a petting zoo near the park and (in the past) animals have been killed for these santanistic rituals. The zoo is now closed due to those killings/"sacrifices".:maddening:

Back to Audrey - I strongly feel that she was ambushed and possibly held in her own home by the killer. UGH - how terrible.:furious:

 

[dotr]

Comment from T Hort..worker.
Sunday, February 20, 2011
http://www.chchnews.ca/index.php/home/item/2096-charges-laid-in-audrey-gleave-murder

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

This is the response/reply from the Tim Horton's worker:

----------------

Sunday, February 20, 2011 posted by A Nonymous

Um yes he has been violent. I work in a Tim Horton's where he has come in and flipped out yelling screaming the works, gotten himself banned from the place so to say he has "never been violent" is 100% a lie. Unless you follow someone around 24/7 how could you possibly know? Now whether or not that makes him a murderer I don't know, just because someone is violent due to schizophrenia does not *necessarily* mean he can or will murder, doesn't mean he won't either. I know David as well, and I know he can be well-behaved, he brought me a gift of a bottle of wine at that same Tim Horton's just before Christmas.

 

[Missizzy]

Was that Scott's typical behavior? Giving gifts of bottles of wine on holidays? A bit odd, unless he fancied the person.

Scott is diagnosed with schizophrenia, by all reports. Does anyone know if he receives a government stipend? Does he pan-handle, sell drugs, pick up odd jobs? Just wondering how he supports himself.

The wine gift was before Christmas, so it's doubtful that it came from Ms. Gleave's. That was my very first thought.

 

[Missizzy]

Allow me to clarify some things about my posts linking to an earlier satanic case in Hamilton. I was originally directed to Audrey Gleave's thread by another WSer due to the possible occult link--the cemetery near by and the date. I typically hang out in the Spotlight on Children, spending my days exposing those arrested for pedophilia. This case intrigued me, however. Anyone can look up ritual high days. The site I use most often is:

http://libertytothecaptives.net/ritual_calendar.html

But the same info is available in lots of places. I'm still not convinced that there wasn't some connection to the cemetery and a midnight gathering. As I've said before, it was an extremely unusual week in many ways--lots of natural and atmospheric events which were celebrated or noted by different groups. The fact that there were two German shepherds is also a component which gave me pause as Alsatians have long been used in satanic practices.

Let me be clear. I am not, in any way shape or form, suggesting that Ms. Gleave was involved in satanism. Far from it. However, she had expressed concern about going outside at night. She was a bit older and slower due to her knees. She did live adjacent to a cemetery and she did own two German Shepherds. I happen to believe that those facts are worth close consideration.

I've written about a horrible "thrill killing" in Wisconsin where a 93 year old woman, Irina Roszak, was stabbed to death in her bed by two young men. They literally went looking for a victim and the 28 year old knew of the elder woman as she'd known him since he was a child. Irina's daughter had been his teacher. He'd played with her grandson. He was described as being polite and kind. And yet he got involved with satanism and talked a teen into accompanying him on a "lark" (yes, the word used). The murder was especially vicious and Ms. Roszak was ordered to "worship Satan as she died". I started a thread on it:

WI~"Satanic Thrill Killer", Austin Davis Sentenced for murder of 93 yr. old - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



I posted the links to the story about the earlier satanic murders/abuse as I found it interesting that they also occurred in Hamilton. I've found that members of even defunct sects seem to stay in one location, even though they might turn their lives around and fully enter the mainstream. I've merely wondered where these little girls might have been taken and if anyone of the group members might have ever had any dealings with Ms. Gleave.

The fact is that a lovely older woman is dead and she died in an appalling manner with a sexual component. Those facts, taken alone, literally scream "occult killing". And yet LE stays as far as they can away from those words as they can. They do NOT want to create hysteria. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that Scott is the killer. I believe that he was close by, was just unstable enough, and was pulled into the limelight to assuage the public's fear.

JMO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Was that Scott's typical behavior? Giving gifts of bottles of wine on holidays? A bit odd, unless he fancied the person.

Scott is diagnosed with schizophrenia, by all reports. Does anyone know if he receives a government stipend? Does he pan-handle, sell drugs, pick up odd jobs? Just wondering how he supports himself.

The wine gift was before Christmas, so it's doubtful that it came from Ms. Gleave's. That was my very first thought.

We're all wondering how he supports himself as well. The wine gift seems to be a fluke. He's homeless, lives in a barn when allowed, is a street person.....it doesn't seem as though he receives a government stipend. Perhaps The Salvation Army offers him food and shelter during the Canadian brutal winter "extreme cold alerts"

But truthfully, we don't know..........

 

[Missizzy]

Most people in the US, diagnosed with schizophrenia and who are unable to work, would qualify for Supplemental Security Income (otherwise known as SSI). It is totally different than Social Security. It is not an entitlement program and is means based. One does not have to have an address to receive it. I'm unsure of the Canadian equivalent, or if there even is one. In the US, the stipend would depend on the state but would range from $400-600 month. A person who is unstable and transient can also designate a "representative payee" ie. a family member, an advocate, or an attorney who specializes in such matters.

 

[Valleyboy]

Most people in the US, diagnosed with schizophrenia and who are unable to work, would qualify for Supplemental Security Income (otherwise known as SSI). It is totally different than Social Security. It is not an entitlement program and is means based. One does not have to have an address to receive it. I'm unsure of the Canadian equivalent, or if there even is one. In the US, the stipend would depend on the state but would range from $400-600 month. A person who is unstable and transient can also designate a "representative payee" ie. a family member, an advocate, or an attorney who specializes in such matters.

The maximum he could receive from the Gov. would be $959.00
depending on his qualifications.

http://www.schizophrenia.on.ca/files/ODSP_FactSheetv1.pdf

 

[Missizzy]

Then it's entirely possible that Scott had some funds at his disposal. Being that he lived in a barn, assumably rent-free, he would have had some ready cash for a bottle of wine for a friend. It doesn't sound as if the man has a car as he's been seen walking and riding a bicycle. In the US, not sure about Canada, food stamps and a medical card often go hand in hand with a stipend.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I THINK - not certain, that in Ontario everyone can receive medical treatment if it's needed. DLS could also receive meds for his problems IF he wanted to take the meds.

In Canada, we generally are very liberal with our heath care for all people.:twocents:

 

[Hazel]

just wanted to point out 3 unrelated things:

• 1) I read all your theories about AG's last e-mail and her choice of song. I am not sure if I get what you guys are saying about Amazing Grace possibly been a "signal".
  I'm probably being pretty dense :square: but I need to ask this:
  
  In the event that AG was lucky enough to be in front of her computer, already logged into her e-mail account, why waste precious seconds opening a new window, going to YouTube, searching for a link to a rendition of that song, and hope against all hopes that the recipient of the e-mail would be at her computer as well (unless she knew she had an i-phone, blackberry, etc.), and then hope that person would immediately 'get' the message that she was in danger and asking for help.
  
  After two months, and knowing what happened, here you are still wondering what the choice of song could have meant. What would make AG think that the neighbour would immediately make that connection, and call for help?
  
  :truce: I guess, what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it have been much faster, and most of all, effective to have simply written in her e-mail something like:
  "Call 911!" or "Help! Call police!" and if she had some extra time to spare, instead of going to YouTube, she could have named the person(s) in her house or at least described them?
  Also, why rely ONLY in one person? Why not include everyone in her contacts list?
  
  IMO, the choice of song meant something else, either it was only meant for the recipient to 'get' the meaning (perhaps something they had talked about on another ocassion?), or AG made a mistake, and sent the wrong song, though this doesn't sound very convincing, since once you click on YouTube in order to get the link to "copy & paste", the song will automatically start playing, isn't that right?
  
  
• 2) Did DLS live in the barn all year long? I cannot believe there is heating in an abandoned barn, but I really don't know, perhaps there is heating in the adjacent living quarters, so pipes wont burst or did DLS only had access to the barn? Are barns insulated? I assume they do have somewhere to plug in those portable heaters? sorry, but I am totally ignorant about these things. Just trying to figure out if he lived in the barn till the weather permitted, then spent the winter months in a shelter.
  
  
• 3) We are on page #24...I believe we need a new thread

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

just wanted to point out 3 unrelated things:

• 1) I read all your theories about AG's last e-mail and her choice of song. I am not sure if I get what you guys are saying about Amazing Grace possibly been a "signal".
  I'm probably being pretty dense :square: but I need to ask this:
  
  In the event that AG was lucky enough to be in front of her computer, already logged into her e-mail account, why waste precious seconds opening a new window, going to YouTube, searching for a link to a rendition of that song, and hope against all hopes that the recipient of the e-mail would be at her computer as well (unless she knew she had an i-phone, blackberry, etc.), and then hope that person would immediately 'get' the message that she was in danger and asking for help.
  
  After two months, and knowing what happened, here you are still wondering what the choice of song could have meant. What would make AG think that the neighbour would immediately make that connection, and call for help? Perhaps we're all just plain stupid. *Comment meant to add some levity to this horrific topic.* More info will be posted AFTER writing inside this quote.
  :truce: I guess, what I am trying to say is, wouldn't it have been much faster, and most of all, effective to have simply written in her e-mail something like:
  "Call 911!" or "Help! Call police!" and if she had some extra time to spare, instead of going to YouTube, she could have named the person(s) in her house or at least described them?More explanations AFTER using your quote!:innocent:
  Also, why rely ONLY in one person? Why not include everyone in her contacts list?
  
  IMO, the choice of song meant something else, either it was only meant for the recipient to 'get' the meaning (perhaps something they had talked about on another ocassion?), or AG made a mistake, and sent the wrong song, though this doesn't sound very convincing, since once you click on YouTube in order to get the link to "copy & paste", the song will automatically start playing, isn't that right?
  
  
• 2) Did DLS live in the barn all year long? I cannot believe there is heating in an abandoned barn, but I really don't know, perhaps there is heating in the adjacent living quarters, so pipes wont burst or did DLS only had access to the barn? Are barns insulated? I assume they do have somewhere to plug in those portable heaters? sorry, but I am totally ignorant about these things. Just trying to figure out if he lived in the barn till the weather permitted, then spent the winter months in a shelter.No clue - I've never lived in a barn!:fence:
  
  
• 3) We are on page #24...I believe we need a new thread

OK, MY thinking about the 'sending of the song' was that PERHAPS the killer had ambushed Audrey and was holding her captive in her house. He MAY have told Audrey to "go about your normal, daily business" - e-mailing, getting the mail, answering the phone, etc. - so as to not arouse suspicions about his being there with her.

Of course, these are just my own paltry thoughts.

ETA: If you guys do begin a new thread, please make it easy to find. I'm not all that savvy with this message board. Thanks kindly!