CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[Chorley8]

My own theories (for what it's worth):

1. The killer was known to Audrey.

2. The killer was well aware of how to meet up with AG (in the garage).

3. The killer had been to her house many times previously.

4. The killer is extremely inteligent AND cunning.

5. The killer is right in front of our noses.....walking around daily as if nothing has happened.

6. The killer is respectable - the wife, the kids, the house, the job, from a good family......you know, "the guy next door" type.

Did any of that make sense?

:waitasec:

Yes it makes sense. But was is the motive in your opinion (I mean even guessing) ?

Also did you mean literally they have this devil may care insouciance or do you think they could have guilt?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Motive (in my humble opinion):

= killing for the sexual thrill of liking to kill (like SV and the attack on SL)

= I'm not certain what you mean here! I'll post this and come back in a few moments!

:blushing:

ETA: Quoted from Chorley

Also did you mean literally they have this devil may care insouciance or do you think they could have guilt?


= OK, I think the killer APPEARS to have this 'devil may care' attitude but deep down there's a modicum of remorse.......not much, though! He's more involved in his daily life......family, wife, house, job, children, going to church regularly......you know, the so-called "perfect" guy! His biggest concern is to NOT GET CAUGHT so he behaves in a 'perfect' manner.

Did that help at all?

 

[roseofsharon]

I have watched many episodes of DH, Criminal Profiler, from the USA. There have been cases very similar to AG's involving elderly women living alone and sometimes off the beaten path, however, in some of those cases, the killer was also known to the victim.

I think AG's personality speaks, (private) (no one allowed in her home) to whom her killer may have been. There are a lot of nosy people who like to pry into other people's affairs and when they don't get the information they wish to obtain, they feel brushed off/snubbed and depending on that person's personality ... enraged.

That being said, I can almost see a scenario where someone close got the brush off from AG. During the holiday season, perhaps they watched her leave her home, then decided to enter her home and have a good snoop and then leave, but AG came home sooner than expected. AG's body was bruised, so she must have put up a good fight. I don't think the killer intended to kill A, but did not want to face the consequences that would follow being in her home, i.e. reputation in the community.

A's dogs were contained, so killer knew A had probably put them in their crates when she left, so they felt very safe entering the home.

The no forced entry is puzzling. I wouldn't think A would have left doors unlocked.

It's a shame the dogs weren't outside when the killer came calling!!!

IMO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

More questions:

1. Was this murder planned or a spur of the moment thing?

2. Has the convection oven guy been checked out as well as AG's Camaro mechanic?

3. Since there doesn't seem to be a garden.....why would PK fib about doing the planting?

4. Did AG have a sort of 'garden' in the house - like a green house?

5. How long did PK know the garage code? Did his brother know it?

6. When PK came to do his handiwork - was he always alone or did he bring a helper?

More...............:chillout:

 

[Chorley8]

These last two posts are excellent. I too have been thinking about much Audrey rankled others and your word "enraged" speaks for itself. I too have been thinking in terms of a break-in. Logistics problems in terms of a small scale break-in include the dogs. I don't think a female perp is impossible because of what RS says here. The key violent act could simply be the knock on the head to put her out and everything else would be easy and could then even involve a deliberate overkill element. It wouldn't take a lot of strength and anyway lots of women are strong.

I think NSU's 5 & 6 are particularly important. #5 has been on my mind because the glimpse we get of P.K.'s relationship there including the Facebook business page suggests a different P.K. than the one we know through his eulogies to Audrey and indirectly through his eulogies to himself. Much more of a "dude" persona. Not to say lots of young people aren't like that one way to Auntie another with their friends. But there is not real need to develop the mythology of his relationship to Audrey the way he does most of us would have settled for handyman and a minor friendship. He is the one pushing the intimacy theme nobody else.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Chorley's post:

I think NSU's 5 & 6 are particularly important. #5 has been on my mind because the glimpse we get of P.K.'s relationship there including the Facebook business page suggests a different P.K. than the one we know through his eulogies to Audrey and indirectly through his eulogies to himself. Much more of a "dude" persona. Not to say lots of young people aren't like that one way to Auntie another with their friends. But there is not real need to develop the mythology of his relationship to Audrey the way he does most of us would have settled for handyman and a minor friendship. He is the one pushing the intimacy theme nobody else.


OK, why would PK develop this mythology of his relationship with AG?

Did he develop this mythology with SV and SL as well?

Reasons:

- loneliness

- in need of an 'older woman/mother type'

- a simple need to dominate/kill women

- a mental disorder

- too much church from his parents

- hiding homosexuality

- was the wife part of the plan to kill AG

Too many questions................:banghead:

 

[dotr]

Taking the above post, I might substitute the letters PK, and put in anyone else who might fit, maybe subtituting a wife for a mother, or even father.
Wondering what the chances are that the perp. might be from a different culture, or perhaps slipped into Audrey's house (thinking she was not home, or asleep) to take a peek at real estate potential?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Now I'm wondering:

- how easy was it to get into AG's house?

- did she regularly lock all doors (especially at night.....but even in the daytime)?

- were windows locked or did AG leave one or two windows open for fresh air?

- were there screens on the windows ?

- how easy was it to open the basement windows and slip inside?

- were there tables, etc. right at the windows in order for an intruder to stand upon (especially in the basement)?

I'm thinking of all this because I always keep doors locked, even when my husband is home after work. However, I always have the bedroom window open to freshen up the house. The bedroom window is upstairs and I suppose that makes me feel safer. I also want our birds to be safe. AG didn't have that issue - she had barking dogs.

:moo:

 

[Sillybilly]

Wondering what the chances are that the perp. might be from a different culture, or perhaps slipped into Audrey's house (thinking she was not home, or asleep) to take a peek at real estate potential?

I get the impression from the references to AG's murder being "horrific" and with a "sexual component" that the perp is MUCH more than someone caught in a curiosity, simple B&E, or paper-related, relatively minor crime (i.e. having a snoop>get>caught>push/shove>run like the wind>victim is left somewhat incapacitated but not dead in a horrific fashion). I also don't really know why i think this, but IMO if it was intended to be a sexual crime, we would get more than "sexual component". Again IMO, this leaves us with "horrific" indicating sadist or someone with a very personal rage against AG, and the "sexual component" being either trophy or red herring.

 

[Sillybilly]

OK, why would PK develop this mythology of his relationship with AG?

Did he develop this mythology with SV and SL as well?

Reasons:

..........
- in need of an 'older woman/mother type'

- a simple need to dominate/kill women

...

- too much church from his parents

- was the wife part of the plan to kill AG

Too many questions................:banghead:

<rsbm>

I lean toward a combination of the above, stemming primarily from known religious aspect = rebellion against possible oppressive religious background. Can&#8217;t help but think of the BCM FB comments "rebel souls and deserters we are called" (since deleted). Here's a refresher on that from my old post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #5

 

[Chorley8]

<rsbm>

I lean toward a combination of the above, stemming primarily from known religious aspect = rebellion against possible oppressive religious background. Can’t help but think of the BCM FB comments "rebel souls and deserters we are called" (since deleted). Here's a refresher on that from my old post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #5

Very important that old post of yours now that some of the info there is down from the site. I don't think it would be going too far to conjecture that the FB has something to do with the "plot" Of course that contradicts your previous post that someone was by chance "caught in the act". We could fit both together is there was something IN Audrey's home, info on the computer or lucre in the household. So then the "plot" would be the theft the murder the chance event. It is a very ominous FB page at least in retrospect. S Billy do you know the date of "nothing ventured nothing gained" and "rebel souls...."?

NSU I guess you have considered the possibility that Audrey somehow found something out about PK whether some kind of deviance or academic fakery, anything? And confronted him in a manner he couldn't handle. Is it possible Audrey called P.K. to a "meeting" to confront him her meeting him in the garage but she was cutting him off in some way (think of all her ready threats to do this for email infranctions) and he couldn't deal with it, take it?

That doesn't fit with the FB page though it has to be one or the other at least in terms of how it ultimately "went down".

 

[Sillybilly]

Very important that old post of yours now that some of the info there is down from the site. I don't think it would be going too far to conjecture that the FB has something to do with the "plot" Of course that contradicts your previous post that someone was by chance "caught in the act".

<rsbm>

I think you may have misunderstood my previous post Chorley ... I said to the effect that i think it is MUCH more than caught in the act. In other words, I do not believe this was a "chance" occurence. IMO this was either premediated by someone who knew AG or someone known to her going into uncontrollable rage (either one could be caused by a variety of reasons that we've discussed).

 

[Sillybilly]

S Billy do you know the date of "nothing ventured nothing gained" and "rebel souls...."?

<rsbm>

Offhand I don't Chorley (have a lot of stuff on my old hard drive that i can't access right now). However I seem to recall that all comments were made within approx a 7 to 10(?) day period surrounding the date that AG was found. I could be wrong on that, but i don't think so ... that's why i had found the comments so significant at the time of my old post.

ETA: Hey ... turns out the comments are NOT deleted (don't know why they didn't pop up earlier .. maybe the page didn't fully load because there was nothing there a couple of hours ago).

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bad-Company-Motors/149910728393657

 

[LilyMacBloom]

Not to say lots of young people aren't like that one way to Auntie another with their friends. But there is not real need to develop the mythology of his relationship to Audrey the way he does most of us would have settled for handyman and a minor friendship. He is the one pushing the intimacy theme nobody else.

snipped by me; this stuck out to me from your post especially the very last line. I would describe "HIS" description of their relationship as "intimate" although I don't see that specific word in any of his posts. However, THE hug, sitting together on the couch, theft of mailbox part, he seems to know her house intimately.

With all that AG hid from all of her (long time ) friends, I guess this is what perplexes me the very most.

AG strikes me as the kinda gal who kept her distance and kept people at a distance.

I dunno maybe it's just me but I find his description of the relationship out of character for AG.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Chorley:

NSU I guess you have considered the possibility that Audrey somehow found something out about PK whether some kind of deviance or academic fakery, anything? And confronted him in a manner he couldn't handle. Is it possible Audrey called P.K. to a "meeting" to confront him her meeting him in the garage but she was cutting him off in some way (think of all her ready threats to do this for email infranctions) and he couldn't deal with it, take it?



NOOOOOOOOO, not at all! I think that Audrey felt that PK was the 'guy-next-door' type - intelligent, kind, engaged, from a nice family, willing to help her around the house, trustworthy (gave him the garage code), preparing for his wedding, willing to bake her cakes........just the "perfect" young gentleman!

Academic fakery? AG certainly gave PK much info but I highly doubt she was concerned about him using her info (plagiarism).

Sure, it's possible that PK was the one Audrey was to meet in the garage that night. But not for negative motives (on her part). I fully think that AG trusted PK and would meet him in the dark of night in a garage.

Let's not forget - Ted Bundy was also a lovely, young married man!:what: Sometimes, things are not what they seem. And one cannot judge a book by its cover.

:moo:

 

[Sillybilly]

Sure, it's possible that PK was the one Audrey was to meet in the garage that night. But not for negative motives (on her part). I fully think that AG trusted PK and would meet him in the dark of night in a garage.

<rsbm>

Speaking of dark, do we know whether the garage light was on or not when LE arrived? I'm sure there would have been lights in the garage, and i don't know anyone, let alone an older person who is not so sure-footed, that doesn't flip the lightswitch on when walking into or out of the garage in the dark.

 

[Sillybilly]

Does anyone know, if you can "Like" yourself on your own FB page?

Reason i ask is the BCM FB page comments are "Liked" by MK and BK, so if you CAN'T "Like" yourself on your own FB account, then it is not MK's account. We already know that PK registered the BCM website, so is he also the one who runs the BCM FB account AND the one making the posts that are "Liked" by others?

ETA: (Doing a lot of ETA's lately) I just realized that MK has his own FB account separate from the BCM one, so he would be "liking" the BCM account from there. Sorry, I'm not very FB savvy.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

To sillybilly - I don't use Facebook but I still like myself!!

:lol:

 

[Snoopster]

To sillybilly - I don't use Facebook but I still like myself!!

:lol:

:floorlaugh:

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggone it, people like me.
~ Stuart Smalley

:great: