CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[Chorley8]

PK swooping in saying what he did and swooping out is of great interest - will refrain from direct speculation on that.

The soup delivery always held great interest for me as well - delivering soup to a sick friend and then not checking up on them afterwards seems odd to me. I would be calling later the same day if I delivered homemade soup by noon, latest the following morning to see if that person was in need of further remedies, like a doctor.

Was there more contact after that?

No offer of a reward for information, no scholarship fund, no mention if some of AG's money went to the people that adopted her pets (even though LV told everyone AG begged her to look after her pets if something happened to her) no lasting memory of Audrey what so ever with her own money. Pitiful among other things, imo.

Now that is a very good point about the soup delivery I had half though of it not fully formulated what is wrong there. Did LV bring anything else along with the soup something for the dogs perhaps a nice little Christmas biscuit.

Also do we know what day PK means when he says that A was expecting someone "that fateful day' that seems to suggest he knows what day she was killed whereas other posts suggest he has no idea (when he agreed that come to think of it the dogs did not appear to have made a mess in the house).

Query: do we know how well PK knew LV?

 

[colette]

I believe PK never came back because too many were looking at him as the killer. Personally I do not think he did it. I think it was some young man visiting or living near Audrey's home. I also think Audrey said that she was going to 'die violently' years ago, maybe it was some sort of feeling she had but I don't believe it was said just before her murder.

 

[Woodland]

Ooooh Chorley8, what a good point on PK's fateful day comment. If no one heard from AG for two or three days, how did PK know exactly when the murder happened? In effect he is also saying that it was not in the middle of the night.

 

[Woodland]

To clarify my last post, PK is saying someone was expected at a time when one normally would receive company.

If PK is suggesting the person that was expected killed her, why in the garage? Why would the killer care if the house was messed up rather than the garage? The dogs were contained.

When a person dies in a home, this has to be declared to potential buyers. Does the same hold true if someone dies or is killed in their garage? That square footage is not included as part of the house. Just wondering.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Wow, some very good points/observations made above. I like Woodland's term "swooping". To add to that, I've always been wondering/concerned about PK's friendliness towards all of us here:

- 'Hi all'

- 'sorry I haven't posted in a while' (or something to that effect)

- 'you guys are a lifesaver' (again, something close to that)

QUESTIONS:

1. Did PK tell his wife that Audrey was expecting someone that day?

2. If so, wouldn't the wife have suggested that the cake be delivered at a more convenient time for Audrey?

3. Did anyone notice that PK has Skype in his profile? Why would anyone have Skype on a sleuthing site?

4. And.....was that REALLY PK posting here? :what:

5. Where is he now? Has 'life gone on' with studies, family, etc.

6. Has he had yet another polygraph?

Too many questions; too few answers.

:moo:

 

[Woodland]

Just to add to the mix, another valuable item left in pristine condition (meaning no blood etc in the house) was the new vet.

Trust many remember the video of the vehicle being winched out of the garage onto a flatbed truck. The drivers side was in full view and not a mark on it - not even blood spatter that I could see.

The orientation of that video said to me that the drivers side faced the door inside the garage to the house (more or less) and the passenger door was more or less against the outside wall. Meaning no room on the passenger side.

PK saw AG as he entered the garage, lying on the floor. Now if I was a crazed killer who just stabbed someone to death, among other acts of violence, why would I not further show contempt by putting my boots to the side of the car? Or picking up something heavy to heave against the windows? Or scratching the side with something in order to leave it in poor condition? Why would I want it untouched when she loved and was proud of that vehicle?

Seems to me an enraged killer would take a minute or two to do that if he/she was standing right next to the vehicle.

Unless of course there was something to gain later from leaving it alone. Jmo.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Just to add to the mix, another valuable item left in pristine condition (meaning no blood etc in the house) was the new vet.I'm assuming you mean her new Camaro. (It's OK, I've spoken a lot here about the fact that I drive a Vette.....which is very much like a Camaro. Also, in GM circles, Camaros are nicknamed 'baby Vettes'. Sorry if this seems picky.) I wasn't aware of a new veterinarion.

Trust many remember the video of the vehicle being winched out of the garage onto a flatbed truck. The drivers side was in full view and not a mark on it - not even blood spatter that I could see.YES!! That also hit me.....especially as the car was WHITE!!

The orientation of that video said to me that the drivers side faced the door inside the garage to the house (more or less) and the passenger door was more or less against the outside wall. Meaning no room on the passenger side.Same here. That's how I picture it.

PK saw AG as he entered the garage, lying on the floor. Now if I was a crazed killer who just stabbed someone to death, among other acts of violence, why would I not further show contempt by putting my boots to the side of the car? Or picking up something heavy to heave against the windows? Or scratching the side with something in order to leave it in poor condition? Why would I want it untouched when she loved and was proud of that vehicle?Again.....my thoughts exactly.

Seems to me an enraged killer would take a minute or two to do that if he/she was standing right next to the vehicle.OR, I was thinking why not place the body INSIDE the car just to show more cruelty, violence, hatred and anger.

Unless of course there was something to gain later from leaving it alone.True. But what to 'gain' (other than the car itself). IMO, the car was left alone (untouched) for some reason only LE is aware of. Also, cars depreciate a great deal once they're driven. Especially if the owner is a smoker. IMO, the only person who would desperately want that car would be a sports car collector. DO WE KNOW WHAT FINALLY HAPPENED TO THE CAR? Jmo.

My responses are contained within the quote.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Chorley8 above:


<<< Also do we know what day PK means when he says that A was expecting someone "that fateful day' that seems to suggest he knows what day she was killed whereas other posts suggest he has no idea (when he agreed that come to think of it the dogs did not appear to have made a mess in the house).

Query: do we know how well PK knew LV?>>>

I went back to re-read this many times and it IS odd.

QUESTIONS:

1. Wouldn't Audrey have told PK that 'I'm having the coffee club members come by' for example?

2. Wouldn't Audrey have told PK that it's OK to deliver the cake at X time but she's having someone over at a different time?

3. How was the time of the cake delivery decided upon? :cupcake:

4. Did any of the nearby neighbours actually SEE him and his car when he came to deliver the cake? (He said he parked on the road - if memory serves - and walked up to the garage opener.)

 

[Woodland]

Sorry, AG's vehicle was a Camaro and have no idea what happened to it. Gain means it would go up for sale upon AG's death. How many killers would be concerned about that? Or had the killer used up all their energy during the killing?

The cake delivery was changed to Thursday am due to AG's illness, according to PK, and was after this visitor PK seemed to know was expected, but didn't know who.

Pretty sure PK parked in the driveway near the garage - the driveway is pretty long. I would find it suspicious if he didn't due to the length, cold etc as it would look to me that he knew to be out of the way.

Have always wondered if anyone saw LV arrive Tuesday am as well PK 2 days later.

 

[LilyMacBloom]

I'm not sure,memory not as good as it once was. Have we ever made a list of information that LE is witholding and or have made polite requests to not be made public? Maybe it would be easier to work backwards so to speak.

I'll start with my short list
-LE have alluded to the fact they have forensic evidence as DLS and/or PK did not "match" OR perhaps match enough to make a formal charge stick as in DLS. Do we have any idea what this evidence is? (as per the spec article above Hrab not available and another Officer said as much)
-has LE ever made any mention of "defense wounds"?
-signs of struggle?
-IF anything WAS missing? (don't recall PK saying if there was or wasn't just that he was asked to check the garage for inventory) (and my acquaintence who insists NOTHING was missing as per LV).

On another note I'm wondering how habitual AG was. ie: Monday-, tuesday-wednesday-coffee group- Thursday-Friday-Saturday-Sunday-visit LV. That's the only two things I remember her doing outside of being at home.

On another note I'm wondering in the 5 years PK knew AG how often did he either have reason to go there to do chores and how often he went to visit? Was it always during the day? How long would he typically stay? I can't decifer these from his posts. This is just me being kinda nosey because for some reason or other I can't really wrap my head around the relationship. Am I the only one who can't?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm not sure,memory not as good as it once was. Have we ever made a list of information that LE is witholding and or have made polite requests to not be made public? Maybe it would be easier to work backwards so to speak. Not that I can recall either. (The word "polite" seems to be out of place in PK's post!!)

I'll start with my short list
-LE have alluded to the fact they have forensic evidence as DLS and/or PK did not "match" OR perhaps match enough to make a formal charge stick as in DLS. Do we have any idea what this evidence is? (as per the spec article above Hrab not available and another Officer said as much)I don't recall ANY evidence!!
-has LE ever made any mention of "defense wounds"?Again....NO!
-signs of struggle?Again......NO!
-IF anything WAS missing? (don't recall PK saying if there was or wasn't just that he was asked to check the garage for inventory) (and my acquaintence who insists NOTHING was missing as per LV).

On another note I'm wondering how habitual AG was. ie: Monday-, tuesday-wednesday-coffee group- Thursday-Friday-Saturday-Sunday-visit LV. That's the only two things I remember her doing outside of being at home. Same here.

On another note I'm wondering in the 5 years PK knew AG how often did he either have reason to go there to do chores and how often he went to visit? Was it always during the day? How long would he typically stay? I can't decifer these from his posts. This is just me being kinda nosey because for some reason or other I can't really wrap my head around the relationship. Am I the only one who can't?You are NOT alone here. I am completely befuzzled by this friendship/relationship.

FURTHER QUESTIONS:

- WHEN was PK invited in to sit on the couch and chat with Audrey?

- does a person ask a handyman in for a chit-chat and a relaxing time on the couch?

- how much does PK know about Audrey's belongings - other than the things he would have used on her property from the garage

- lastly, I'm totally not getting WHY Audrey would give a handyman the code to her garage

- oh, and WHY ON EARTH would Audrey try to help PK get a wedding photographer?

Comments are within the quote.

 

[Woodland]

Good list of outstanding questions LilyMacBloom - I re-read an article from the Brantford Expositor this morning where LV is interviewed.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/04/its-all-so-horrifying

LV states in all the years she knew AG (about 30) she was only ever in AG's house once. They usually sat outside and talked. So how would LV know nothing was missing from AG's home? I think this question has been put forward before.

I was thinking about that and decided I would have a tough time deciding if anything was missing from my mothers home - a place I frequent more than LV did AG's. I don't pour over what she has and she loves to shake things up now and then. Furniture would be obvious, but small items? I could not list jewelry for example or clothes or most knick knacks - I see them and recognize them, but do not have her possessions committed to memory. What's odd to me is that my mother has the neatest most uncluttered home one is ever going to see. So if AG was some sort of hoarder, as has been suggested - not possible in my mind for LV to state anything with absolute certainty.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Further things:

- if AG was a hoarder, how on earth would PK even be able (with certainty) tell LE that nothing was missing form the garage?

- did the Camaro end up at a chop-shop?

- if so.....who took it there?

- where EXACTLY in the garage did PK find AG's body?

 

[Woodland]

It would not surprise me that no DNA was found at the scene. My belief is this was a very targeted and planned murder, so DNA would have been very much in the forefront during the planning stage.

When DLS was released, it was on the basis of no real prospect of conviction.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/03/charge-dropped-in-killing-of-exteacher

Hamilton Police Supt. Bill Stewart said the forensic evidence didn&#8217;t come back with the &#8220;conclusive results we were hoping for."

So, no confirmation that DNA was found and HPS would be crazy to say there was none.

 

[Woodland]

I don't see the Camaro ending up at a chop shop - seems to me it has more value intact, but I'm not expert. It was only a year old and 'driven by a little old lady' so mileage would not have been that high.

If this was a targeted murder, then the Camaro was thought of as an asset to be sold. Imo.

PK might not have had a difficult time with items in the garage - he seemed to have used the tools etc available there.

Re LilyMac's observation on the relationship between PK and AG - I see the point. AG was likely in need of someone to help her out given her limited mobility, but why did PK need that particular job? Slim pickings in the area? The job offered a certain amount of freedom for other pursuits? Looking down the road at further gains? Jmo?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

When the Camaro was released from LE and forensics, where did it go? To whom? And wouldn't LE be able to track the selling of the Camaro if, indeed, someone sold it.

Did it possibly go to the garage/auto parts/mechanic's shop owned by PK's brother?

Above all.....the cake delivery is still bothering me greatly. Can't explain why. :cupcake:

 

[dotr]

Video from Dec 2010, shows car being loaded up,a chat with neighbours and includes the comment at .20, "At least one stranger".. Indeed, was there more than one attacker?
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/31/16718126.html

 

[Woodland]

Have always thought more than one person was involved.

 

[Mercyneal]

I grew up in Ancaster, Ontario. In the 60s, it had a population of 700. My elderly dad still lives in the house where I grew up- not that far from the murder scene.

Next time I am in Ancaster I will definitely visit the crime scene. Still kind of astonished that little ole Ancaster is such a focus of interest.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Some of you are saying you think more than one person was involved - that never occurred to me!

If that's the case, here's how I see it:

- Audrey was expecting someone (as per PK)

- that someone was let into the house or just the garage area

- another person who knew Audrey well also arrived

- the TWO people did the killing OR one did the killing and the other locked up the garage and helped the killer get away

- perhaps the killer was told the garage code?

- it was PLANNED that PK deliver the cake on 'that fateful day' in order to make the discovery

*I cannot get past the notion that someone who was feeling unwell would want to see a Christmas bundt cake, let alone eat it!*

**I also cannot understand how the WHITE Camaro was left without marks, blood, etc.**

IDEA:

Did the killer(s) drive Audrey (in her Camaro) to a remote place and kill her there. Then, did they return the Camaro to its usual spot in the garage, complete with the code locked?

:moo: