CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[2soccermom]

<rs&bbm>
....
IF AG had stepped outside for a smoke at any time, I doubt she would have had her furbabes confined inside the home, rather they would have been outside with her, or if inside, would have had the usual run of the house if AG was there alone....

OK, but I'm not sure I agree, SB. The dogs had crates inside the home; we don't know whether or not it was Audrey's habit to crate the dogs at night. It is usual with some breeds that they sleep in their crates (find comfort there). I feel like we don't know enough in this case to presume what's more or less likely. We don't know the TOD; if it was late, the dogs had gone to bed (were crated) and Audrey went to the garage either for a smoke or to check the doors were locked, or ... whatever, then "I doubt" is put into doubt.... (GENTLY said :blushing

 

[Chorley8]

Reposting from Jan. /11 So what happened tuesday and why take away the car?


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...e-warn-public-after-horrific-killing-of-woman
"The last email Ferguson received from Gleave was on Monday night, when she passed on a link to a version of “Amazing Grace.”

That is the last time police believe anyone who knew Gleave had contact with her.

No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fergusons’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.

On Friday, Hamilton police and OPP were searching Gleave’s property, which is surrounded by dense forest, with a cemetery on one side.

OPP loaded what neighbours said was Gleave’s white Camaro car onto a truck and took it away."

“We knew she was lonely, but to die like this, I’m sorry she had to die alone,”
this from the neighbour in the article Dotr linked to here.

These neighbours (the barking dogs neighbours) of Audrey's seem to be the source of the "hermit" comment that got some wide play. Why are they spinning this line and why when someone they know is killed right across the street would you say it was only too bad that they had to die "alone" (and actually of course she didn't).

Why make it sound like a natural death? On a TV interview he had a sort of half grin and opined that it makes you think when it happens right across the street. Pretty well cold as ice. Note also that they were the source of trying to tie the death (potentially) to the barking dogs which it is also said barked a lot but this time "wildly". They also are important because of the Amazing Grace video.

Query: do we have a list of how many people received that video was it just P.K. and F. or were there others?

It occurs to me that they had no way of knowing whether Audrey lived as a hermit or not and anyway she didn't. I know very little about my neighbours unless they are friends.

 

[61Montcalm]

@Siillybilly
Couldn't quite figure out how to reply to your post, so I will try this.
You bring up some great questions. Yes, the implication is that Audrey would have felt safe outside with her dogs present. So it does seem to me that the dogs would have been crated if Audrey had a guest that the dogs did not like, or that did not like dogs.

So who would that be? Thinking aloud, I am wondering if there was someone close to Audrey who would be allowed into the house that we do not know about. And that the neighbours and PK did not know about either. Or that the dogs were initially loose and were stunned / drugged and then placed in their cages to make it look like Audrey had caged them.

I agree that this murder was not about stealing trinkets / Camaro and so forth, but that is just my opinion. I can’t for the life of me imagine why she would be a target for dissatisfied high school physics students so many years after she left the teaching profession.

I am a fairly private person, unlisted phone number and so on. So I can to some degree sympathise with Audrey not wanting her e-mail address to be broadcast. However, she had lived in the same home for many years and drove a distinctive car so I would imagine that even a complete stranger wanting to find her could have done so just by asking questions around town.
At the moment I’m not convinced that Audrey knew her killer and I am not sure what the motive for murder would have been.

Some possibilities that spring to mind:

1.)Thief wanted Camaro – one of the first on the market and hotly desired in Canada and the U.S. – possible but unlikely IMO;

2.)Valuables stored in home – maybe; we don’t know what was missing from Audrey’s home and she had held a well-paid job for many years that would have enabled her to acquire valuable antiques or collectibles;

3.)Audrey saw something at Chalk River that she should not have seen, maybe someone was passing information to a foreign country (USSR?, SFRJ?) and she threatened to “out “them.

4.)Perp. knew that re-written will would be accepted in Ontario and that they would have a lot to gain.

5.)Audrey herself was involved in passing information to foreign country, perhaps quite unwittingly, and now someone wanted her silenced?

6.)Completely random attack – dogs were caged for the night, Audrey went into her garage for a smoke (as I am prone to do) and then the killer surprised her.

All my thoughts for the moment before a very hectic work week begins!
Cheers!
61Montcalm

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Adding some thoughts:

1. I think AG was killed inside her home.

2. I think a coat was quickly draped over her shoulders and the body was dragged out to the garage.

3. I highly doubt the motive was theft of the new GM Camaro or of other worldly goods. The crime was far too passionately initmate for mere 'car theft'.

4. I've wondered all along why PK would fail to call Audrey to see if she was feeling well enough to receive the CAKE that day. (Influenza season has arrived already in Ontario this year and I'm really having difficulty understanding how anyone would NOT phone ahead to see if a person who had been "under the weather" was feeling well enough to look at a piece of cake!)

And......we're left with..... :cupcake:

 

[LilyMacBloom]

I don't think AG was murdered in her home then dragged to the garage. (but I respect the opinions of those that do)
My thought process goes more along the lines of:

AG had a guest in her home, that person either was also a smoker or went to keep AG company in the garage while she smoked. (therefore no need to drag the dogs out with them) I don't believe the dogs were caged , just in the house.
They were either already in the middle of an argument or one ensued in the garage and perp used whatever was at hand in the garage. (I seem to remember when LE was searching for weapon didn't we discuss a pruning saw at some point or other?)

I think perp is male and known to AG
Motive, it's something personal and the score was settled with her death (nothing missing)

All the above is just what I THINK, I obviously have no facts to back anything.:truce:

I'm not convinced this murder is connected with any other or random.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

The reason I'm thinking AG was killed inside her house is because (for some unknown reason) I also think she was killed by the person who killed SV. Therefore, the inside of AG's house would be blood-covered, etc. Even though PK claims he "thought she'd slipped on some ice". :doh:

I also think she was killed by a male (young and close).

I also believe she was murdered by someone she knew well - well enough to allow him indoors.

Motive? Sheer rage. Sheer hatred for women.

Where is the killer right now? Right in front of our eyes. Waltzing around, living his life.....freely.

:moo:

 

[Sillybilly]

... Or that the dogs were initially loose and were stunned / drugged and then placed in their cages to make it look like Audrey had caged them.
...


Some possibilities that spring to mind:

1.)Thief wanted Camaro &#8211; one of the first on the market and hotly desired in Canada and the U.S. &#8211; possible but unlikely IMO;

2.)Valuables stored in home &#8211; maybe; we don&#8217;t know what was missing from Audrey&#8217;s home and she had held a well-paid job for many years that would have enabled her to acquire valuable antiques or collectibles;
...

4.)Perp. knew that re-written will would be accepted in Ontario and that they would have a lot to gain.

6.)Completely random attack &#8211; dogs were caged for the night, Audrey went into her garage for a smoke (as I am prone to do) and then the killer surprised her ...

<rsbm>

Drugging the dogs has always been something i've wondered. Just not sure how it might tie in timewise or possibly wrt the cake somehow. Mind you, drugging wouldn't be necessary if someone just said "would you mind putting the dogs in their crate while i'm here". FWIW, not sure we've heard officially that the dogs were in their crate(s). PK said he wasnt' sure "where the dogs were confined", so it could be the dogs were confined elsewhere in the house, other than in their usual confinement area.

Could be nothing, but I recall PK saying to the effect that the garage was jam-packed. He also said the doors were closed on the Camaro. It was a 2-door, and i just find this observation a bit unusual for the average Joe who has just found his friend's body lying in front of her car, but had enough presence of mind to check the passenger side.

Re valuables / missing items ... FWIW, we have heard that AG's bank statements were not found with the important documents in her purse. Could be that she chose to access them online, but that is an unknown to us, and something that needs to be verified between the bank and LE. Also, wrt the new convection oven, PK said "I'm not 100% sure how she paid but if I know Audrey it was with cash"<bbm>. So, it was known that AG normally had cash on her. I wonder if any was found in her purse or elsewhere in her home.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2


PK said AG smoked 10 - 20 cigarettes a day and that he believed she would smoke inside sometimes. It was AG's home and she generally did not have people visit inside, so she doesn't really strike me as the type who would give two hoots whether her home smelled of smoke or not. JMO

Also, "AG's response to a stranger arriving unannounced would vary by time of day. She might ignore them or use the dogs to try and scare them off but she did tell me stories of sitting door-to-door visitors on the bench and talking to them for hours on end&#8230; hehe" <bbm>. Had a stranger arrived at AG's door, it doesn't sound like she'd welcome them with open arms or with her dogs confined elsewhere in the house.

WRT your comment about a re-written will, (and I really have no clue right now where i'm going with this) .. PK said that one of AG's hobbies was handwriting analysis. Just thinking of a scientific mind dabbling with the pseudo-science of graphology, and trying to think if her interest in that hobby could somehow have been piqued by discovering something related to her LWT.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

This has probably all been discussed earlier ...

Remembering how PK said he and AG talked about what would happen after she died (although he never did provide details when i asked) .. and wondering if AG had a more recent LWT that bequeathed some items (i.e. the Camaro plus some goodly sums, forgiveness of debts, etc) to PK and AK. If the former beneficiary found out about the new one, they could have destroyed it so they could remain sole beneficiary per the 2007 version.

Given AG's death, I suppose that leaves LV as the only person who can state that, in their 30 year friendship, she was only in AG's home once (?)

 

[dotr]

These threads seem to be duplicated?
http://article.qthx.com/gtrtfw/audr...rumsczvarchiveczvindexx9oczvt-124074z8hl.html

 

[Sillybilly]

These threads seem to be duplicated?
http://article.qthx.com/gtrtfw/audr...rumsczvarchiveczvindexx9oczvt-124074z8hl.html

Weird .. still checking. Seems to be out of China ??

 

[LilyMacBloom]

These threads seem to be duplicated?
http://article.qthx.com/gtrtfw/audr...rumsczvarchiveczvindexx9oczvt-124074z8hl.html

Wow!...how weird to read your own stuff rather our stuff reposted ...wow, going back to site to figure out who or why someone would post all together from different sites

 

[Sillybilly]

Here's a Feb 8 2006 Wayback capture (earliest there is available, and nothing shows up for 2011 on .. which is kind of odd because the info dotr linked to is early 2011). I'm thinking it's some sort of search engine in China or an article archive website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060208045201/http://qthx.com/

ETA: When you do a site search for AG's name, it brings up the same page all the time .. just that page that contains the first posts from Jan 2011:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&output=...754f5032d57cf2&bpcl=35466521&biw=1097&bih=542

I think it might just have been the initial sensationalism associated with Audrey's murder .. some of the Asian countries seem to have a fascination with things "North American".

 

[Chorley8]

This has probably all been discussed earlier ...

Remembering how PK said he and AG talked about what would happen after she died (although he never did provide details when i asked) .. and wondering if AG had a more recent LWT that bequeathed some items (i.e. the Camaro plus some goodly sums, forgiveness of debts, etc) to PK and AK. If the former beneficiary found out about the new one, they could have destroyed it so they could remain sole beneficiary per the 2007 version.

Given AG's death, I suppose that leaves LV as the only person who can state that, in their 30 year friendship, she was only in AG's home once (?)

Yes I had thought that this will was fake but you're right the 2007 could have been the correct will. Doesn't really make sense to me the earlier will I mean leaving LVS as the sole beneficiary with husband to be if she were to die - but possible. The witnesses are women who are "partners" I mean in a relationship as I understand it. There are strange commonalities to the signatures including A.G.'s as I remember it not identical but an unusual loop in the initial letters.

Not sure what you mean by last sentence but I mentioned before that on Memorial site there is a woman who thanks A for "welcoming us into your home".

 

[Sillybilly]

Yes I had thought that this will was fake but you're right the 2007 could have been the correct will. Doesn't really make sense to me the earlier will I mean leaving LVS as the sole beneficiary with husband to be if she were to die - but possible. The witnesses are women who are "partners" I mean in a relationship as I understand it. There are strange commonalities to the signatures including A.G.'s as I remember it not identical but an unusual loop in the initial letters.

Not sure what you mean by last sentence but I mentioned before that on Memorial site there is a woman who thanks A for "welcoming us into your home".

LV is not married, RV (the alternate executor/beneficiary) is her brother.

Re AG's signature, it is interesting to compare them from 1973, 1978 and 2007 ... the 1978 and 2007 have hardly any deviation or variance from each other. I find that unusual over almost 30 years (my signature is not at all like it was 30 years ago). Also, when you magnify the 2007 signature of the LWT, there appears to be a couple of breaks that I would not expect to see. I'm no hand-writing expert, but just find it odd.

Yes, i do recall that other person, but my last sentence is meant to convey that, of AG and LV, LV is the only one alive who can state that she was ONLY in AG's home once(?) in 30 years (meaning AG isn't here to refute it, and it just seems pretty hard to believe).

Also, not sure we ever decided why AG's Will is dated at Brantford, Ontario when she lived in Ancaster. LV lives in Brantford, so possibly the Will was done at LV's residence. Regardless of where your LWT is written however, the normal and correct wording would be "This is the Last Will and Testament of Audrey Gleave of 3401 Indian Trail, Ancaster, Ontario, dated this ..........".

 

[dotr]

Wow!...how weird to read your own stuff rather our stuff reposted ...wow, going back to site to figure out who or why someone would post all together from different sites

Posted this link in T.O. crimes thread, as it is also duplicated on another site.
http://club.cccgrapevine.com/showpost-1-659-1.html

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere but WHERE exactly in the garage did PK find the body?

Beside the car? In front of the car? Right at the garage door, behind the car's tailpipes? At the door from the house into the garage? At the bench?

If there was so much stuff in the garage, how was there room for the car + a dead body? Have LE proven that the body was left in the garage?

Where exactly was PK before bringing the cake? What is his alibi?

This looks so bad....... :truce: (Waiting to get scolded again!)

:cupcake:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

A few more things hit me as I wait to start my week:

PK said he also was inside AG's house. So, LV was not the only one invited indoors over the years.

Then, there's the convection oven installation guy. Who is he? Where is he? Has he been checked out? OR - did PK install the new oven?

Over the years, was there anyone inside AG's house doing chores - repairing the heating, painting the walls, delivering furniture, picking up the Camaros for tune-ups, any delivery people who need signatures (like FedEX, UPS, etc).

Now, if the only two people to ever set foot inside AG's house were LV and PK......I have to wonder how truthful that is. It seems impossible. As a homeowner, we all know that from time to time 'workmen' of various kinds must come to our homes.

Thinking out loud here.......:truce:

Where was Mrs. PK at the time of the MURDER - not when the body was found? Was there a 'sexual component' to the PK/AG relationship?

Something is really off here...........:truce:

 

[colette]

I'm wondering if Audrey was alittle bit of a pack rat/hoarder and that is why people didn't get in her home. If LE supposedly has DNA doesn't that put PK and wife in the clear?

 

[dotr]

Slightly off topic, but if anyone has doubts about really young offenders, this arrest was just announced..
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...ajor-announcement-on-west-end-sexual-assaults
A 15-year-old boy has been following a string of sexual assaults that have left residents of the Bloor St. W. and Christie St. area on edge since the summer, Toronto police said Monday.

The announcement was made by Staff Insp. Mary Lee Metcalfe at a morning news conference.

The suspect was arrested Saturday after a woman was attacked in the Roxton Rd. and Bloor St. W. area around 11 p.m., Metcalfe said.

The youth, whose name cannot be released under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, was arrested at the scene after police say the victim was approached from behind and sexually assaulted.

Metcalfe said that the youth was arrested in connection to 16 incidents that occurred between Aug. 16 and Oct. 20 in the geographical area bounded by Barton Ave. to the north, Ossington Ave. to the west, Palmerston Ave. to the east, and College St. to the south""

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Slightly off topic, but if anyone has doubts about really young offenders, this arrest was just announced..
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...ajor-announcement-on-west-end-sexual-assaults
A 15-year-old boy has been following a string of sexual assaults that have left residents of the Bloor St. W. and Christie St. area on edge since the summer, Toronto police said Monday.

The announcement was made by Staff Insp. Mary Lee Metcalfe at a morning news conference.

The suspect was arrested Saturday after a woman was attacked in the Roxton Rd. and Bloor St. W. area around 11 p.m., Metcalfe said.

The youth, whose name cannot be released under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, was arrested at the scene after police say the victim was approached from behind and sexually assaulted.

Metcalfe said that the youth was arrested in connection to 16 incidents that occurred between Aug. 16 and Oct. 20 in the geographical area bounded by Barton Ave. to the north, Ossington Ave. to the west, Palmerston Ave. to the east, and College St. to the south""

Welcome to my working world!

:bang: