CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #8

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  • #901
<rsbm>

I really doubt the laced food trick, especially with well fed dogs. Always amazes me how my shepherds can detect and spit a tiny pill buried in anything. Even being their trusted owner, I might fool them up close once or twice by popping it quickly into an upturned mouth, but after that, or give them the opportunity of checking it out, they find it, mouth it, ditch it, give it a look of utter disgust ... then maybe eat the good stuff. I end up having to jam it down the throat and hold the mouth closed until it's swallowed. I doubt any stranger or friend of Audrey's would have had the courage to try that, LOL.

Didn't Bernardo/Homolka use a chloroform type drug, poured onto a cloth, to incapacitate Homolka's sister? The drug had been taken from a vet's office.

This method was well publicized.

I agree SB. It doesn't seem like a very likely/sound plan. As you say, no guarantee the dogs would take it etc. Being a Shepherd owner, what's your opinion on how the killer dealt with the dogs? I think that how the dogs were handled is important, as they would have been a serious factor for the killer to consider. I have a hard time with the idea that they were in some way drugged or sedated, but I can't see how else they would have been neutralized without obvious injury.

Chloroform can be made at home, and the directions to do so can be found on the web. Austin Sigg did it. I'm not sure what ingredients are needed (and I don't want to google it) but Sigg was able to obtain the ingredients at 17 years old.
 
  • #902
Read this quickly Paragirl - thread #3, page 14, post #333 - [modsnip: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7327918&postcount=333]

At the time the video was shot, PK must have already told LE exactly what had transpired for his scheduled visit(s). I just don't get why he seemed to be worried at the time the video was shot that he forgot to mention the 25th visit was cancelled.

Is this the discrepancy?[/B]

The actual transcript from page 12 (2 pages back as posted) is gone. Are we onto something here? I'm liking this thread.

rsbm

Yes. I think so. There's a lot about the entire timeline in general that is missing/off. I wonder how much is known that we just don't know. And I would like to know more about that cake. Can we discuss the cake?
 
  • #903
Back to the chloroform for a second - I just Googled it and it IS illegal for most of us to possess. But couldn't someone who's scientifically inclined learn how to make it? In a lab or elsewhere?

:twocents:
 
  • #904
Didn't Bernardo/Homolka use a chloroform type drug, poured onto a cloth, to incapacitate Homolka's sister? The drug had been taken from a vet's office.

This method was well publicized.

Homolka used a drug called halothane - Karla Homolka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Six months before their wedding in 1991, Homolka stole the anesthetic agent halothane from the Martindale Veterinarian Clinic where she worked. On 23 December 1990, "after a Homolka family Christmas party, Bernardo and Karla Homolka drugged Tammy Homolka with the animal tranquilizers.

Halothane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Use of the anesthetic was phased out during the 1980s and 1990s as newer anesthetic agents became popular. Halothane retains some use in veterinary surgery and in the Third World because of its lower cost.
 
  • #905
Wonder if there are any MSM articles on the cake still around. As a start?
 
  • #906
I know that over 3 years and 8 threads, a lot of these details have been discussed over and over again, but it can never hurt to revisit, and rethink these details to bring ideas to the forefront again. So I hope it's ok if I post some of my crazy brainstorming (mostly accomplished in the wee hours of the night/morning when my brain is probably not as sharp as it could be). With respect to the attacker (official LE and crime writer/blogger profiles aside - and all just my opinion):

1. A random crazed predatory psychopathic killer (not meant to be any kind of accurate diagnosis/label) who didn’t know AG and wasn’t necessarily from the area, randomly selected AG on the spur of the moment and just “lucked out” that she happened to be elderly and alone. Ambushed and attacked AG in her garage while the dogs were locked in the house and barking/freaking out. Not sure how the attacker then entered the house to take items away that were later left strewn around outdoors on the property, OR how the attacker left the scene without leaving obviously distinguishable DNA/prints/other forensic evidence (presumably, since I personally would assume if any obviously distinguishable evidence was left, then Scott would have been a “no match”, rather than “inconclusive”). This type of a random attack seems unlikely to me in such a remote, rural area. The attacker would have to get there (car/bike/on foot) in the winter and get around the open space surrounding AG’s home undetected. Getting away from the location would be difficult without being seen or heard imo. Not to mention all that messy evidence.

2. A crazed predatory psychopath who IS from the area, or knows/cased the area, and selected AG specifically because she is a single older lady living in relatively private seclusion. Planned out the attack carefully watching AG’s habits, the dogs, etc, and timed the attack, watching and orchestrating it so AG was already in the garage, and attacking and murdering AG while the dogs were inside barking and freaking out. Less likelihood of leaving obviously distinguishable DNA/prints/other forensic evidence due to pre-planning. Still unsure about how the killer would then enter the house to obtain the items that were taken, with the dogs in there. This seems more likely than a completely random attack though. If it was a random/not-known-to-AG attacker, but a planned out attack, then the killer would have figured out what time of the day/night would be best, how to get on and off the property undetected, and how to prevent leaving evidence behind, or leaving less evidence behind.

3. Take either of the above scenarios and insert “a friend/acquaintance of AG’s" who is a crazed predatory psychopath and carried out one of the two scenarios.

4. A friend/acquaintance of AG’s who was there for a visit and suddenly snapped due to some “beef’ or perceived slight/insult/disappointment, and in a rage attacked AG. Just lost it and went ballistic and murdered her. However, even if this person were known to the dogs, after they had carried out the heinous attack on AG, there would be no getting inside the house with the dogs loose in there after they had heard this happening to AG. Also, again there is the issue of the unplanned, messy attack and DNA/other evidence being left/taken.

5. A friend/acquaintance of AG’s who had a simmering “beef” with her, and had been stewing over it for a while, building up anger, determined to “sort it out”. They make arrangements to go to her home for a visit and organize things in a way that allows them to carry out the attack and theft. Such as going inside to place something in the house for AG, or going to use the bathroom. While inside they discreetly pull shut the door to the room where the dogs are hanging out inside the house, or slide the gate across the kitchen entrance-way, for example, maybe also at this time somehow sedating the dogs, before stepping back out to the garage where AG is waiting having a smoke. Then they carry out the attack, go inside and take the items, do whatever, and leave.

Maybe the perp had ALREADY been inside the house prior to the murderous attack, and had either already ensured that the dogs were safely out of the way, OR had already taken the items, before killing AG.
 
  • #907
Wonder if there are any MSM articles on the cake still around. As a start?

I have put together my own media links reference that includes every single article/video, source identified, dated, and in chronological order. Can we make some kind of media links reference post?
 
  • #908
Having trouble choosing between the dogs were knocked out somehow, or just left alone - but caged.

Would AG's dogs barking inside her home carry all that much to neighboring houses, considering how far apart the houses on Indian Trail are? I know a neighbors dog was heard barking the night before AG was found, but was it outside or inside? Don't recall ever hearing specifically where that dog was.
 
  • #909
Paragirl - in your 1 thru 5 scenarios, who would then close the garage doors behind them - stranger or person(s) known to AG? How did they leave? Punch the button and run/slide under the door before it closed? Go inside the house, do whatever and use another exit?

Closing the garage doors goes to forethought, imo. Dumb thought though, imo, if you want LE to think it was crazed stranger.
 
  • #910
I have put together my own media links reference that includes every single article/video, source identified, dated, and in chronological order. Can we make some kind of media links reference post?

Good job! Can you start a thread for media links? Ask a mod to start one?
 
  • #911
Having trouble choosing between the dogs were knocked out somehow, or just left alone - but caged.

Would AG's dogs barking inside her home carry all that much to neighboring houses, considering how far apart the houses on Indian Trail are? I know a neighbors dog was heard barking the night before AG was found, but was it outside or inside? Don't recall ever hearing specifically where that dog was.

I am also not 100% decided how I think it went down, and I find the whole sedation scenario a bit unlikely. At the same time, those dogs would have been intimidating caged or not. Whether the dogs' barking carried or not, it would be loud and unnerving for the attacker, who would definitely NOT want to be caught in the act if someone DID hear the dogs and decide to check it out.

I don't recall reading any specific detail about the neighbour's dog being inside or outside either.
 
  • #912
Paragirl - in your 1 thru 5 scenarios, who would then close the garage doors behind them - stranger or person(s) known to AG? How did they leave? Punch the button and run/slide under the door before it closed? Go inside the house, do whatever and use another exit?

Closing the garage doors goes to forethought, imo. Dumb thought though, imo, if you want LE to think it was crazed stranger.

Personally I don't think it was a stranger, crazed or otherwise.

I guess if it WAS a stranger, then yes, they would have to hit the button and get under the door before it closed, or use another exit.
 
  • #913
I am also not 100% decided how I think it went down, and I find the whole sedation scenario a bit unlikely. At the same time, those dogs would have been intimidating caged or not. Whether the dogs' barking carried or not, it would be loud and unnerving for the attacker, who would definitely NOT want to be caught in the act if someone DID hear the dogs and decide to check it out.

I don't recall reading any specific detail about the neighbour's dog being inside or outside either.


Hrab had trouble with this aspect, guess we will as well!
 
  • #914
Good job! Can you start a thread for media links? Ask a mod to start one?

I'll ask a mod. I have NO idea how to start a thread within this thread/forum.
 
  • #915
  • #916
  • #917
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2183648--that-s-so-audrey-/

The Spec 6 Jan 2011 - That's so Audrey


While private was the word many people used to describe Gleave, Vanstone said she was many things: animal lover, someone who loved her smokes and candies, coffee groupie, bargain shopper, car-buff, funny and stubborn.


So AG's friends knew about the coffee group. Not that they should not have.
 
  • #918
Cake stuff - Same Spec article, 6 Jan 2011

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2183648--that-s-so-audrey-/


Gleave was feeling ill over Christmas, so they arranged to drop the cake off the following Thursday morning. It was with the gift in hand that Kinsman stumbled on the horrific scene.

The day the cake drop off arrangements were made are not clear in this article.
 
  • #919
Getting some serious flak from The Spec website on reading the articles pertaining to AG. I'm not a subscriber, so cannot read anymore for a month or so - aka a time-out.

Funny enough, I once wrote the Spec and advised if their archives were better I would subscribe. Apparently fell on deaf ears. Wonder how it's working for them.

Hopefully others can pick up on the cake from here.
 
  • #920
Getting some serious flak from The Spec website on reading the articles pertaining to AG. I'm not a subscriber, so cannot read anymore for a month or so - aka a time-out.

Funny enough, I once wrote the Spec and advised if their archives were better I would subscribe. Apparently fell on deaf ears. Wonder how it's working for them.

Hopefully others can pick up on the cake from here.

I'm not a subscriber either. They limit you to 6 free articles per month. The work-around is to clear your cookies and restart your browser after every 6 articles. This resets the count ;)
 
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