CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #8

[Deleted member 102539]

I'm pretty sure it would include that, and any forensic evidence of whether the car had been tampered with in any way (alarm system, door locks), soil samples in tire treads, etc. Haven't found info specific to Hamilton Police Services, but in Halton Region for example, the CR unit is a specialized team within the Forensic Identification Unit:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../Pages/default.aspx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

I want to say again (even if boring), that I have read at MSM (later not available): AG's lower legs were hurt as if they had been hit by car.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I want to say again (even if boring), that I have read at MSM (later not available): AG's lower legs were hurt as if they had been hit by car.

This is new for me. I read in JH's blog that he'd held a door open for Audrey because she seemed to be having trouble walking. (Or something to that effect. The gist was that AG's legs/knees seemed to be giving her troubles.)

And, if this is in fact true, I don't understand why AG would not take meds from her doctor for the knee/leg/ankle aches we all seem to get in such a cold country. (As we get older!)

:dunno:

 

[LambChop]

I want to say again (even if boring), that I have read at MSM (later not available): AG's lower legs were hurt as if they had been hit by car.

Wow. I did not know that. So it is possible someone tried to steal the car?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Whew! Hefty chunk of change.

:drumroll:

I thought of 2 computer geniuses, that would be able to send an email from foreign server. Motive: explained logically.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Wow. I did not know that. So it is possible someone tried to steal the car?

............ or wanted to disable AG? (My translation program doesn't know the explizit expression for "kampfunfähig machen".)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This is new for me. I read in JH's blog that he'd held a door open for Audrey because she seemed to be having trouble walking. (Or something to that effect. The gist was that AG's legs/knees seemed to be giving her troubles.)

And, if this is in fact true, I don't understand why AG would not take meds from her doctor for the knee/leg/ankle aches we all seem to get in such a cold country. (As we get older!)

:dunno:

I did understand from texting, that this possible collision was related to the murder.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Wow. I did not know that. So it is possible someone tried to steal the car?

Possible. But we've been over and over the "stealing the car" scenario many times. The problem is this: These cars are NOT STEALABLE! (If that's a word).

Camaros are known as 'baby Vettes' in the GM racing community. I have a Vette and many friends with Camaros. They cannot be stolen. Hence, the high price tags.

IF someone tried to steal AG's car, the person would literally NEED THE KEYS to start the car and drive it away. They cannot be hot-wired. The only way possible to get that car away from the garage (WITHOUT KEYS) is to do what LE did - load it onto a flatbed truck and haul it away.

:twocents:


ADDED INFO: The computer system in the car will tell LE if someone had been tampering with the car. Other than that, no......stealing the car is not an option.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I did understand from texting, that this possible collision was related to the murder.

OK thanks! So.......I now wonder if AG had the car running to warm it up. Maybe she stepped back into the house for something and the killer was behind the wheel. Perhaps the killer tried to run her down as she approached the running car. This would be in line with PK's saying the 'the body was contorted'.

If this was the case, AG also would have had the garage doors open to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning.

That also will be available to LE via the computer system on the car. Recently, I had my Vette serviced. My mechanic phoned me and said "What did you hit?". I told him I didn't hit anything. Then I remembered I'd bumped (very lightly) into a tire on the side of the road. He told me he could see that slight impact on my computer system in the car. So, he did a realignment for me.

 

[Sillybilly]

This is new for me. I read in JH's blog that he'd held a door open for Audrey because she seemed to be having trouble walking. (Or something to that effect. The gist was that AG's legs/knees seemed to be giving her troubles.)

And, if this is in fact true, I don't understand why AG would not take meds from her doctor for the knee/leg/ankle aches we all seem to get in such a cold country. (As we get older!)

:dunno:

New to me also ... all we've ever heard was wrt her arthritis. And yes, I have always found it odd that PK reported he was certain she didn't have prescription meds and he didn't see "expected debris" around the house at all. Not sure what he meant by that observation .. most folks keep meds in the medicine cabinet and I don't think there should be any expectation of related debris left around the house.

Could be she took over the counter meds for her arthritis. A quick check with her doctor or a review of her income tax returns should indicate whether she claimed any prescription related expenses. Given her age and sedentary lifestyle, and that she smoked 10 to 20 cigarettes a day, one might expect her to possibly have some elevated BP, maybe even blood thinners, sleep aids, etc.

 

[colette]

Possibly someone trying to steal a running car. That is a really good theory.

 

[colette]

New to me also ... all we've ever heard was wrt her arthritis. And yes, I have always found it odd that PK reported he was certain she didn't have prescription meds and he didn't see "expected debris" around the house at all. Not sure what he meant by that observation .. most folks keep meds in the medicine cabinet and I don't think there should be any expectation of related debris left around the house.

Could be she took over the counter meds for her arthritis. A quick check with her doctor or a review of her income tax returns should indicate whether she claimed any prescription related expenses. Given her age and sedentary lifestyle, and that she smoked 10 to 20 cigarettes a day, one might expect her to possibly have some elevated BP, maybe even blood thinners, sleep aids, etc.

Many of the elderly keep their meds readily available and in plain sight. Usually on kitchen counter or table next to easy chair. I have worked as a home visit RN, so I know that is true. Never saw one patient use the medicine cabinet for their meds. Usually kept in kitchen.

 

[Sillybilly]

Many of the elderly keep their meds readily available and in plain sight. Usually on kitchen counter or table next to easy chair. I have worked as a home visit RN, so I know that is true. Never saw one patient use the medicine cabinet for their meds. Usually kept in kitchen.

I must be unusual in that I keep medicine in a medicine cabinet, LOL. I must stop interpreting things so literally :floorlaugh:

What would you consider "expected debris" to consist of?

 

[Sillybilly]

OK thanks! So.......I now wonder if AG had the car running to warm it up. Maybe she stepped back into the house for something and the killer was behind the wheel. Perhaps the killer tried to run her down as she approached the running car. This would be in line with PK's saying the 'the body was contorted'.

If this was the case, AG also would have had the garage doors open to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning.

That also will be available to LE via the computer system on the car. Recently, I had my Vette serviced. My mechanic phoned me and said "What did you hit?". I told him I didn't hit anything. Then I remembered I'd bumped (very lightly) into a tire on the side of the road. He told me he could see that slight impact on my computer system in the car. So, he did a realignment for me.

If a thief was that intent on stealing the car, why was the car still there? A 3800+ lb car was a lethal enough weapon if they wanted Audrey dead just to get away with her car ...no need to exit the vehicle, beat her, stab her, sexually assault, etc. and then just leave their intended item behind.

FWIW, I interpret the contortion of Audrey's body to most likely be due to rigor, but that would mean she was killed 3 to 12 hours prior to PK finding her, and wouldn't explain her last being seen or heard from since Dec 27. Even if PK meant contortion to mean her limbs were askew as if she had simply fallen, that shouldn't have resulted in him so definitely concluding she was in fact dead when he called 911.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

FWIW, I've never thought that auto-theft was part of this picture. The killing was too gruesome, too up-close-and-personal. If someone wanted the car - just hold a knife to the owner's throat and demand the keys. That's much easier and it's a sure-fire way to obtain the car.

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from SB:

What would you consider "expected debris" to consist of?

I have no idea. Labelled medicine bottles?

I also keep all medicines in the kitchen cabinet beside the fridge. That way I can grab a glass of cold water to take the meds with. Also, it (hopefully) prevents people from snooping in my bathroom (and bedroom??????) for my meds. My 'debris' is in plain sight in the kitchen cabinet. (Safely away from our birds.)

:twocents:

 

[Sillybilly]

FWIW, I interpret the contortion of Audrey's body to most likely be due to rigor, but that would mean she was killed 3 to 12 hours prior to PK finding her, and wouldn't explain her last being seen or heard from since Dec 27. Even if PK meant contortion to mean her limbs were askew as if she had simply fallen, that shouldn't have resulted in him so definitely concluding she was in fact dead when he called 911.

Changing my mind here because I failed to recall "cadaveric spasm". We know Audrey's death was horrific, and IMO this would make more sense in relation to the timeframe. CS is different from rigor, instantaneous at the moment of violent death, and does not resolve like rigor does. This would coincide with death on or about the 27th, stiffness/contortion still not resolved on the 30th.

This isn't the most scientific of articles, but I found the layman's explanation the easiest to understand:

from:
http://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/new-morbid-terminology-cadaveric-spasm/

Cadaveric spasm is the instantaneous appearance of rigidity in a deceased body. It usually occurs in the hands and limbs of individuals who suffered a traumatic death. For example, Mason (1993) notes that hands amputated in airplane crashes have been found holding onto seatbelts, or knives found clutched within the hands of victims of knife fights. The condition is not part of rigor mortis, which is characterized by a progressive rigidity of the deceased body due to biomechanical changes in muscles occurring 10-12 hours after death. Cadaveric spasm is a persistent occurrence when it happens, and the individual will continue to hold that pose from death until putrefaction allows for decay of the affected limb

<bbm>

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Thanks SB for that info above. I've always thought the 27th was Audrey's final day alive and this info *might* help prove it.

:twocents:

 

[dotr]

This might be ot, but considering this violent attack on an older person by a younger one who is from an area near Audrey, thought it might be apropos to post here.
Also note the changeable appearance of alleged perp who is presently being hunted by LE.

http://www.680news.com/2014/02/15/bradford-man-wanted-in-deadly-newmarket-double-stabbing/

"Police in York Region have identified a suspect wanted for first-degree murder after a double-stabbing in Newmarket on Wednesday night.

Officers were called about the incident around 10:30 p.m. and when they arrived at the scene near Huron Heights and Davis drives, they found two men with stab wounds."



http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2014/02/14/john-jansen-38-considered-extremely-dangerous
bbm
"At this point, this individual is wanted for first-degree murder and is considered extremely violent," said York Regional Police Const. Laura Nicolle. "We are actively looking for this suspect and are looking for any information on his whereabouts as at this point we don't know where he is.

"We are urging him to seek legal counsel and turn himself is," she added.

Jansen is described as a white male, standing five-foot-six and weighing 120 pounds. He has brown hair and brown eyes, as well as several tattoos on both arms".

 

[Deleted member 102539]

At another forum I just have read, Audrey's dogs had been "locked" in the bedroom.
Have you WS' ever heard about?

 

[greenthumb]

Are there any links to MSM for that info FromGermany? TIA

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