CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

[deugirtni]

Something that has always 'bugged' me, was PK's response to LE's question in regard to religious beliefs.

Police, aware that Kinsman is a devout Christian, asked him where he believes Gleave's soul rests. In heaven or hell? He found it an uncomfortable line of questioning.

"It's not an illegitimate question," he says now. "But you have to be OK with an open-ended answer. I mean nobody knows right? Certainly, Audrey's soul was not in my hands."
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

But the thing was... they were not asking him where AG's soul rests, they were asking him where 'he believes' AG's soul rests, which is an entirely different question, merely asking for his opinion. So LE doesn't really 'have to be ok with an open-ended answer', because they wanted the answer only as he sees it, from his own perspective as a 'strong believer'. He stated in the same article that, "Alex and I are strong believers, and there is nothing that would prohibit a plea out of desperation for salvation that would go unanswered … I know what reason tells me, and what I hope for." So if that is one's opinion, then why be uncomfortable with that line of questioning? Oddly though, when one thinks about it, did AG even have the chance to make such a 'plea out of desperation for salvation' before she was killed? Or was she caught off guard and killed very quickly? And even if not, would she have made such a 'plea for salvation'? And if not, then where does PK believe AG's soul rests in that case? Very interesting question from LE, imho.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

His entire cake story makes no sense. A person would know what you were holding, or not holding, when you found a dead body.
Something is wrong here. And how on earth could you EAT the cake after that ordeal?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Wow, that question from LE about the soul is very interesting. Were they trying to find out if a true believer would kill? Or did they want to learn of his opinion of AG, a sinner would go to hell, if one believes in that. Was AG worthy of being murdered?It sounds like LE were trying to see PKs inner thoughts about AG.

 

[deugirtni]

Wow, that question from LE about the soul is very interesting. Were they trying to find out if a true believer would kill? Or did they want to learn of his opinion of AG, a sinner would go to hell, if one believes in that. Was AG worthy of being murdered?It sounds like LE were trying to see PKs inner thoughts about AG.

Yes, I believe that conversation would've given LE much insight.

 

[Gina20]

Regarding the 'tupperware domed-lid container', here is one that looks a bit more modern than the really 'classic' kind. PK had just gotten married only months before AG's murder, perhaps they received some Tupperware they didn't require? With PK's wife being a pastry chef and working at a fine dining establishment, she was likely very much into 'presentation', as well as good results. This was PK's gift to AG for Christmas, so I'm thinking the gift also would've included the container? It may have been somewhat of a novelty to PK to even see or know about such an item, and that could be why he remembered such detail.. but yes, to have 'mentioned' such detail is the thing, I guess! I think it does matter though... because if it was one of the 'Tupperware cake-takers' that has a handle, he conceivably could've carried the cake with one finger underneath the carrier-strap, and in that case, he may not have dropped it, even if shocked... but if it had no strap/handle, then surely his shock would've made him drop it, if he'd been holding it when he discovered the body? Details, details.. what's that saying, 'the devil is in the details'!

Tupperware Round Cake Taker Carrier Blue & Sheer dome top tall | eBay

ETA: adding the link with the Tupperware domed-lid reference:

At one point, he said he had carried the cake for Gleave into the garage where he discovered the body, but later said he had left the domed-lid Tupperware in his car the whole time. He's now convinced he must have left the cake in the car.

After he was interviewed by police at the scene of the homicide he drove home and along with Alex ate the cake — a "Texas stollen" cinnamon and raisin coffee ring cake.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

You would think that a pastry chef would know the difference between a yeast bread laden with alcohol-soaked fruit, and a cake. You'd think a caterer and restaurant owner would know the difference between a yeast bread and a cake if it was being added to the menu. The devil IS in the details.

Also, traditional stollen is rather compact and does not require a domed-lid container. Is the reason for this assiduous attention to detail in some respects the presence of a domed-lid container in the car, and did the "cake" dovetail nicely with that? I'm not sure about a disappearing "cake" that was gobbled down after being on a garage floor with a dead dear friend, not sure at all.

Why would Audrey need a cake container at her age, living alone in a house full of stuff? Surely a glass cake dome would be a finer presentation from a pastry chef, not Tupperware.

 

[2soccermom]

I know I don't share the same views necessarily on PK as the majority of you (I think there are one or two sleuthers who feel as I do) and so I simply respectfully offer my views as I respect the views of others.....

It makes 100% sense to me that PK, as a "strong believer," is uncomfortable answering the question -- it appears he belongs to a Christian religion whose doctrine is you have to believe to be "saved." Audrey was a woman of science who, according to Jon Wells, was not a woman of faith (Who is Audrey Gleave? - tho' I don't know if that means perforce she didn't believe). PK was her friend. While I'm not sure how deep that friendship went -- he was, after all, a busy young man with a life of his own -- I appreciate and respect that he would have difficulty saying she's likely, in Christian terminology (and the following is not MY view, and indeed even I'm uncomfortable typing it -- but I expect ascribes to PK's religion) to be in hell/purgatory/NOT in paradise, as Christian dogma would compel him to believe.

(Audrey, you were a good soul in the world and if there is existence after death I hope you're revvin' the camaro, figuratively speaking )

The inconsistencies in his story (which many intimate may be connected to potential culpability) can also be understood in a trauma-informed context. Some details can be vivid for folx who encounter horror and other details can be wholly or partially repressed. That he didn't understand or recognize fully what he saw can be consistent with trauma response; that he doesn't recall and has to speculate if he had the cake in hand or not can also be traumatic memory at work. That the young couple ate the cake in one sitting (if we believe this to be true) does not seem sinister to me but the effect of grief and need and potentially sustained shock....

Anyway. I don't know who is or is not the perp or perps in this case. But what I am hopeful for is the possibility of DNA to solve it. We've had an enormously wide DNA seep in Sonia Varaschin's case (I've lost track? more than 600 samples collected?) -- who has given DNA in this one? Remember, The Spec article (Eccentric doesn't equal murderer) told us that David Laurie Scott was released because "his DNA didn't match." I'm not sure that's entirely the same way to understand there wasn't enough forensic evidence to convict, as many other news stories reported.....

A savvy sleuther previously posted this article (PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions; sorry that I don't recall or have searched to credit you ) on DNA advancements and processes (largely but not only related to the Tim Bosma case) and I remind us of this snippet related to Audrey's case here:

"Last year, Huys resent exhibits from the unsolved Audrey Gleave homicide scene back to CFS to take advantage of the new mixed DNA testing.

Audrey, a retired high school teacher, lived alone in her Lynden home for 37 years before being killed in her garage in December 2010."

Let's hope there IS a viable DNA profile produced, and that all the usual suspects have been "invited" to submit (and that any who decline are subject to appropriate scrutiny).

MOO.

 

[Gina20]

Regarding the 'tupperware domed-lid container', here is one that looks a bit more modern than the really 'classic' kind. PK had just gotten married only months before AG's murder, perhaps they received some Tupperware they didn't require? With PK's wife being a pastry chef and working at a fine dining establishment, she was likely very much into 'presentation', as well as good results. This was PK's gift to AG for Christmas, so I'm thinking the gift also would've included the container? It may have been somewhat of a novelty to PK to even see or know about such an item, and that could be why he remembered such detail.. but yes, to have 'mentioned' such detail is the thing, I guess! I think it does matter though... because if it was one of the 'Tupperware cake-takers' that has a handle, he conceivably could've carried the cake with one finger underneath the carrier-strap, and in that case, he may not have dropped it, even if shocked... but if it had no strap/handle, then surely his shock would've made him drop it, if he'd been holding it when he discovered the body? Details, details.. what's that saying, 'the devil is in the details'!

Tupperware Round Cake Taker Carrier Blue & Sheer dome top tall | eBay

ETA: adding the link with the Tupperware domed-lid reference:

At one point, he said he had carried the cake for Gleave into the garage where he discovered the body, but later said he had left the domed-lid Tupperware in his car the whole time. He's now convinced he must have left the cake in the car.

After he was interviewed by police at the scene of the homicide he drove home and along with Alex ate the cake — a "Texas stollen" cinnamon and raisin coffee ring cake.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

Vintage Tupperware for reference. Do you think the "cake" came with a decorative knife?

https://www.amazon.ca/Vintage-Tupperware-Harvest-Carrier-Keeper/dp/B00XS1WLZU

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

There’s no way AG would need nor want the Tupperware thing.
I wonder if PK knew the substance of what AG hoarded? Was it anti-Christian things? If so, why did PK become so friendly with her?

We seriously need DNA in this case. Soon.

 

[Gina20]

There’s no way AG would need nor want the Tupperware thing.
I wonder if PK knew the substance of what AG hoarded? Was it anti-Christian things? If so, why did PK become so friendly with her?

We seriously need DNA in this case. Soon.

DNA might not be of any use in this case.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

True, DNA might not help. Not now, anyway.

 

[whiterhino]

I don't mean to make fun or anything like that but while searching cakes, I looked up the Tim Hortons cake for curiosity and found this link...

It's honestly so hilarious I had to share, hopefully you all will get the joke

 

[Gina20]

I don't mean to make fun or anything like that but while searching cakes, I looked up the Tim Hortons cake for curiosity and found this link...

It's honestly so hilarious I had to share, hopefully you all will get the joke

This is simply instructive, but well done. It's all about yeast bread. A professional pastry chef would know it's yeast bread.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Forgive me but I’m out of it. Why are we making a big deal out of yeast or non yeast? Was AG allergic to yeast? Sorry, but I’m totally confused. Did PK say it was yeast? Enlighten me please.

 

[deugirtni]

The 'cake' was reportedly a request from AG herself, for her 'favorite cake', for which she even reportedly supplied the recipe. The particular recipe only has 1C of raisins and no other dried fruit, no alcohol. Personally, I was surprised at that particular recipe, only because it was out of a publication, rather than someone's treasured family recipe handed-down from generation to generation, or whatever. That part made that story a little less believable to me, personally. But perhaps AG didn't like things with dried fruit in them, who knows.. that may be why she may have chosen such a recipe for this particular stollen? It was PK's wife who was educated and presumably trained as a 'chef', and it seemed she was not too advanced in her career at the time, but although his wife may have known it was not 'cake', it is PK who is relaying the story to the public, and perhaps he is just going by what AG called it, as well as perhaps not really knowing (or caring about the differences?) himself, at least at the time he was relaying the story? jmo.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Yes, PKs wife worked at Saving Thyme. Possibly still does.
AG didn’t seem to have family from which there would be a treasured recipe. She was a loner. I can easily see her cutting out a recipe from a magazine.

I’m still confused about the yeast. Note, I don’t know how to bake!

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, PKs wife worked at Saving Thyme. Possibly still does.
AG didn’t seem to have family from which there would be a treasured recipe. She was a loner. I can easily see her cutting out a recipe from a magazine.

I’m still confused about the yeast. Note, I don’t know how to bake!

PK's wife worked at a fine dining establishment in Dundas at the time. She likely got her hours completed there, to finalize her career choice. Saving Thyme was later opened by both her and PK as a small cafe/bakery/catering establishment. I believe it is still operating today.

AG was said to have been a teenager when she didn't like her mother, IIRC, and it seemed to last throughout her mother's lifetime. She may have liked stollen as a child at home, or later with a friend or whatever.. but regardless, we can still get treasured recipes from elsewhere than our own family. I wonder if AG, in her more elderly years, ever had a softening toward her mother. Would she, being the only child, have been the executor and beneficiary of her mother's estate? Her father reportedly died years earlier than her mother.

 

[Catmommy]

There was apparently no robbery and no real sexual attack so what motive does that leave? Rage? Jealousy? Thrill? Financial gain? Why was someone so careful about her safety and surroundings hideously murdered? I believe in following the money but where does that lead us? Audrey, who did this terrible thing to you?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

This is so confusing. Was there or was there not a sexual component to the murder? Why the different stories? PK said he didn’t notice much while a seasoned officer said it was one of the worst in his career.

What’s wrong here?

 

[deugirtni]

This is so confusing. Was there or was there not a sexual component to the murder? Why the different stories? PK said he didn’t notice much while a seasoned officer said it was one of the worst in his career.

What’s wrong here?

PK's working on that was interesting, from what I recall... even though he also said that he only saw her eyes and everything else was seen from his peripheral vision (IIRC). LE said at first there was a sexual 'component', but I don't think they said in the beginning that she was raped, etc.?? I think the orig lead detective on this case had some tunnel vision and lost some opportunity to obtain evidence in the earliest days, imho. I think it was later determined by a different team that they believed the sexual component was staged.

Regarding the sexual component, suffice it to say that it was visually obvious by observing the crime scene.
CANADA - Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

The way PK talks to us in the link above is more absurd now than it was back then.
Hey all.
I goofed.
Sounds like he’s talking to the boys at recess in Grade One.