Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

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  • #1,121
bbm. I don't think that's what the family is saying at all. I think they want to pursue every possible avenue to to find the answers they seek. If this truly is a murder/suicide, or a suicide/suicide, there's a huge "why" component that TPS isn't obligated to provide.

If I were to ever find myself in a similar position, and had the resources this family does, I would likely do the same. TPS are not the be all and end all.

It is normal for denial initially after hearing about a family member’s death and more so if a death is thought to be possibly murder-suicide or suicide. I agree I think the family want to make sure of the facts and find answers. They have every right to do so. If they hadn’t sought advise...I would wonder about them.
 
  • #1,122
People don't have to have shown violence before. You never know what is going on in someone's mind or if something has happened to change them.

I understand why their children would want a full investigation but I also think they would never want to accept their father killed their mother - if that is the case.

This, exactly. I've been reading things on here like "Barry would never do this" or "Barry seems like the kind of guy who would...", but really, you people know nothing about Barry, Honey, or what was going on in either of their minds. I understand how the family feel, my own brother killed himself a few years ago and I thought the same thing. When somebody does something like this, more often than not most people around them never saw it coming because they tend to hide their pain. Usually the only person that might have any clue is the spouse, and in this case the spouse is gone. With my brother, nobody saw it coming. Parents, children, siblings all thought he was the happiest most upbeat person they knew. So, to me anyway, its almost laughable when someone says "Barry wouldn't do that". You have no idea what you are talking about. The only people that have a grasp of what went on, who aren't biased by emotion, are the police, and they obviously see this as a suicide. This was NOT a mob hit. This was not a vendetta by estranged family. Lets take off our tinfoil hats and have some respect for these people. Kinda feels like some people are using this tragedy to play some sort of sick detective game. :maddening:
 
  • #1,123
Absolutely. This was their view of the water - not quite Florida.

I wonder if they had a dispute about the new house. It was demolished a couple of weeks ago. It's another big decision, a big expense, and it might take several years before it's built. For a seventy five year old, is that really what he wants to be doing with his time and money?

I don't think the expense of a new custom home was much of a concern for the Shermans. Whatever it would cost would be 'reasonable' in their very wealthy world. He may not have wanted to move, it had been in the works for some time as the land was bought last year.
 
  • #1,124
I don't think the expense of a new custom home was much of a concern for the Shermans. Whatever it would cost would be 'reasonable' in their very wealthy world. He may not have wanted to move, it had been in the works for some time as the land was bought last year.

I agree with you. At 75 most people become very adverse to change. If they were just in the demolition phase, their new home would likely be close to two years from being completed. That means two moves, two new places to get used to. For a guy that would be approaching 80, it might be a bit much. Do I think it was the reason for this? Certainly not, but it might have been one of many factors.
 
  • #1,125
This, exactly. I've been reading things on here like "Barry would never do this" or "Barry seems like the kind of guy who would...", but really, you people know nothing about Barry, Honey, or what was going on in either of their minds. I understand how the family feel, my own brother killed himself a few years ago and I thought the same thing. When somebody does something like this, more often than not most people around them never saw it coming because they tend to hide their pain. Usually the only person that might have any clue is the spouse, and in this case the spouse is gone. With my brother, nobody saw it coming. Parents, children, siblings all thought he was the happiest most upbeat person they knew. So, to me anyway, its almost laughable when someone says "Barry wouldn't do that". You have no idea what you are talking about. The only people that have a grasp of what went on, who aren't biased by emotion, are the police, and they obviously see this as a suicide. This was NOT a mob hit. This was not a vendetta by estranged family. Lets take off our tinfoil hats and have some respect for these people. Kinda feels like some people are using this tragedy to play some sort of sick detective game. :maddening:
I'm deeply saddened and very sorry to hear of your loss, andreww. I fully agree, that no one here can possibly know what was going on in the mind of BS, or behind the closed doors of this couples relationship.

Anything is possible, and I remain to keeping an open mind. I'm not ruling out murder (although I think a "mob hit" may be a bit of a stretch), and not ruling out suicide. I think it's fair to have skepticism with TPS at the moment, however. I think they need to stop stating such preliminary conclusions. Laura Babcock, Tess Richey, the list goes on. With the resources this family has, I'm not surprised by their decision to have an independent investigation done. If TPS rule this suicide, they will close the case. The "why" component will still remain for the family, and TPS aren't obligated to provide that. I'd want to find out as much as possible, too.
 
  • #1,126
This, exactly. I've been reading things on here like "Barry would never do this" or "Barry seems like the kind of guy who would...", but really, you people know nothing about Barry, Honey, or what was going on in either of their minds. I understand how the family feel, my own brother killed himself a few years ago and I thought the same thing. When somebody does something like this, more often than not most people around them never saw it coming because they tend to hide their pain. Usually the only person that might have any clue is the spouse, and in this case the spouse is gone. With my brother, nobody saw it coming. Parents, children, siblings all thought he was the happiest most upbeat person they knew. So, to me anyway, its almost laughable when someone says "Barry wouldn't do that". You have no idea what you are talking about. The only people that have a grasp of what went on, who aren't biased by emotion, are the police, and they obviously see this as a suicide. This was NOT a mob hit. This was not a vendetta by estranged family. Lets take off our tinfoil hats and have some respect for these people. Kinda feels like some people are using this tragedy to play some sort of sick detective game. :maddening:
I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my son to suicide. Years later I still can't wrap my mind around it.

These forums are full of cases where people would never, could never, but indeed they did, often in ways that are are completely mystifying. Why fill up your gas tank or stop for a snack before killing yourself? Why bind yourself up to fake a murder, as the census worker did? Why schedule a job interview and tell your husband you would be back in a half hour, in plenty of time for the interview? Why would a couple jump off a building together? Or seemingly normal middle class parents drown their children then themselves? Or a newscaster shoot themselves on live tv?

In some ways this thread reminds me of the Lori Ruff case. People were speculating about witness protection, fleeing from FLDS, escaping from a wealthy family brought down by fraud, and those were the more believable theories. In the end, just a runaway who went to unusual lengths to hide her identity. Why? No one knows. Her family wasn't looking for her.

Real life is not a Tom Clancy novel.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
  • #1,127
I agree. I feel this sounds like a hired hit to send a message .... this means someone(s) out there KNOW WHAT THE MESSAGE IS.
... and are probably taking some form of action in response (ie. go on the run, pack up and leave, drop that pesky law suit, settle the debt quickly or plan for retribution, etc.)

I think the message (if this was a double murder) was for Barry, not for anyone else.

So if no one knows what the message it, well, that probably doesn't matter to the killer. Barry got the message.

jmo
 
  • #1,128
I think the message (if this was a double murder) was for Barry, not for anyone else.

So if no one knows what the message it, well, that probably doesn't matter to the killer. Barry got the message.

jmo

true... 'message' could have been for Barry. Does forensic evidence show that Honey was killed first? I know they've determined she died elsewhere in the mansion and was eventually moved.
 
  • #1,129
Motive for a hit. This is very topical in the current political scene.

Barry Sherman's political lobbying

August 2015:

Barry and Honey Sherman, are hosting a fundraiser Aug. 26 at their home for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau

Sherman is, in effect, seeking to unseat Harper and promote a deal that another Jewish leader, Netanyahu, contends puts Israel’s very existence at risk.

Netanyahu and Sherman are pulling their Jewish supporters in opposite directions. Which leader should Canadian Jews follow?

The Jewish Defence League of Canada has, not surprisingly, decided to trust Netanyahu and follow his lead. They will be picketing outside of the Sherman residence

http://www.cjnews.com/perspectives/opinions/guest-voice-ill-jdl-protest-outside-barry-shermans-house

November 2016:

Lobbyists who assist parties, candidates or politicians with fundraising or campaigning are prohibited from lobbying them or their staff for 5 years – Apotex is now registered to lobby Prime Minister Trudeau’s office

Today, Democracy Watch filed an ethics complaint with federal Commissioner of Lobbying Karen Shepherd calling on her to investigate an August 26, 2015 fundraising event for the Liberal Party of Canada hosted by Apotex Inc. chairman Barry Sherman at his home and attended by Justin Trudeau and then-candidate, now-Liberal MP Michael Levitt. According to an article in the National Post, tickets for the event cost $1,500.

http://democracywatch.ca/group-file...ng-event-involving-apotex-and-justin-trudeau/

May 2017:


[h=1]IN UNEXPECTED MOVE, TRUDEAU COMMITS CANADA TO DEFENDING ZIONISM[/h][FONT=&quot]Trudeau’s statement is surprising for several reasons.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But most importantly, it is surprising because Zionism itself is an ideology that seems to be at variance with Canadian values of democracy, equality and social justice.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is not clear whether Prime Minister Trudeau really understood what he was saying. He may be confusing Judaism and Zionism. Trudeau might have thought that defending Zionism is the same thing as opposing racism.

https://canadatalksisraelpalestine....-trudeau-commits-canada-to-defending-zionism/
[/FONT]

September 2017:

[FONT=&quot]Canada’s largest drug maker is fighting the federal lobbying commissioner in court in a bid to shut down an investigation into a political fundraiser its chairman hosted for the Liberal party during the last election.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Apotex Inc. applied in May this year for a judicial review to contest Shepherd’s investigation

https://ipolitics.ca/2017/09/22/pha...n-bid-to-block-probe-into-liberal-fundraiser/
[/FONT]

December 2017:

[FONT=&quot]Shepherd’s investigation ground to a halt in the spring when Apotex [/FONT]filed a challenge[FONT=&quot] in Federal Court

https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/19/lob...draiser-probe-following-barry-shermans-death/
[/FONT]
 
  • #1,130
true... 'message' could have been for Barry. Does forensic evidence show that Honey was killed first? I know they've determined she died elsewhere in the mansion and was eventually moved.

I've been thinking about Honey. I wonder if she resisted restraint in the pool area and was able to get away at first. Perhaps that is why she was killed elsewhere and brought back to the pool. "Elsewhere" could mean anywhere other than where they were found...perhaps she tried to make a run for it but didn't make it far.

Just thinking aloud. Total speculation. JMO
 
  • #1,131
Motive for a hit. This is very topical in the current political scene.

Barry Sherman's political lobbying

August 2015:



November 2016:



May 2017:




September 2017:



December 2017:

The killings (whether murder-suicide or double-murder) seem personal to me. I'm not getting a mob or political vibe.

Of course, that's just my hunch. Anything is possible at this point, but this crime seems intimate and personal.

jmopinion
 
  • #1,132
The killing (whether murder-suicide or double-murder) seem personal to me. I'm not getting a mob or political vibe.

Of course, that's just my hunch. Anything is possible at this point, but this crime seems intimate and personal.

jmopinion

Assuming double murder for purposes of discussion, it looks as if the perp got in and out again without being seen, had a plan for the security cameras, and left no obvious forensic trace evidence behind. I'm hoping that if there was a struggle with Honey she got at least a fibre or two under her nails, but even that may not have happened if she had a belt put around her neck from behind. If her arms weren't yet restrained she may have scratched at her own neck to try to release it. This would suggest to me, if it was let's say a disgruntled family member, that they at least hired someone to do it who knew how to avoid detection. I don't know whether a hired killer would pay that much attention to creating effect, beyond making it look like suicide. Plus the whole hiring of someone to do your dirty work means someone always has that knowledge over you.
 
  • #1,133
I feel for the family...but this effectively neuters the official Police investigation.

As a Toronto resident, I'm sorry to say this, but our police force has not distinguished itself in dealing with complex cases. Witness Bernardo, where his career as a rapist went on unhindered for years, or Millard / Smich for Laura Babcock (where the Hamilton police force did most of the real investigation for Tim Bosma's murder.) This family has the resources to use private investigators; Greenspan has many years of experience, and likely this will help, not hinder, the official investigation.
 
  • #1,134
Reading about these two just makes me wonder what it must be like to live without any concern about having enough money. It must be so amazing to not have that worry in the back of your mind constantly.
 
  • #1,135
I've been thinking about Honey. I wonder if she resisted restraint in the pool area and was able to get away at first. Perhaps that is why she was killed elsewhere and brought back to the pool. "Elsewhere" could mean anywhere other than where they were found...perhaps she tried to make a run for it but didn't make it far.

Just thinking aloud. Total speculation. JMO

I would say that they know she was killed elsewhere is because the neck compression marks likely don't match those of a hanging. So maybe she was strangled with hands, then hung so as to appear a suicide. I thats the case, there is a good chance Barry has defence wounds on him.
 
  • #1,136
When I first heard that they Shermans were found dead I immediately thought of the cousins. I thought the cousins may have something to do with it. However, I have just read all the posts on this thread and have changed my mind. I think it was a murder/suicide. Barry killing Honey, then himself. Family never want to believe it's suicide. It's easier for them to accept their love ones have been murdered.

On a side note, I'm aware of one of the Apotex lawsuits. IMO, Apotex were ruthless in their pursuit. The main parties on the other side of the lawsuit were forced into bankruptcy. When I have more time I'll try to find the case and post.
 
  • #1,137
Reading about these two just makes me wonder what it must be like to live without any concern about having enough money. It must be so amazing to not have that worry in the back of your mind constantly.

Yes and no. The things that make an average person happy simply don't apply to the uber rich. For instance, things that may make me happy and keep me going during the daily drudge might include things like saving for a new car, or a sunny vacation somewhere. The super wealthy simply don't have to strive for these things, they just get them. After a while you run out of things to buy. So what good is your money at that point, and as many say, it simply doesn't buy happiness. More often than not, its a burden.
 
  • #1,138
As a Toronto resident, I'm sorry to say this, but our police force has not distinguished itself in dealing with complex cases. Witness Bernardo, where his career as a rapist went on unhindered for years, or Millard / Smich for Laura Babcock (where the Hamilton police force did most of the real investigation for Tim Bosma's murder.) This family has the resources to use private investigators; Greenspan has many years of experience, and likely this will help, not hinder, the official investigation.

Hopefully both sides are open to following the evidence. I hope the family investigators aren’t primarily concerned with a finding that the survivors consider acceptable in the circumstances.

Of course for all all we know the evidence could be highly conclusive in any direction.
 
  • #1,139
He has never shown any tendencies towards anger or violence to her or others. It’s reaching to even consider that. Furthermore if he had killed her, he would not have been in the mindset or need to move her and stage it.

And you know this how?
 
  • #1,140
As a Toronto resident, I'm sorry to say this, but our police force has not distinguished itself in dealing with complex cases. Witness Bernardo, where his career as a rapist went on unhindered for years, or Millard / Smich for Laura Babcock (where the Hamilton police force did most of the real investigation for Tim Bosma's murder.) This family has the resources to use private investigators; Greenspan has many years of experience, and likely this will help, not hinder, the official investigation.

I agree to a point. The most comparable bungling would likely be Wayne Millard. Suicides happen all the time and cops are probably sometimes too lazy to dig too deep in to them. Much easier to put "suicide" as a cause death and be done with it. You'll be right 999 times out of a thousand anyway. I think we can safely assume at this point that TPS are taking a very good look at this case, but I'm afraid that there conclusion likely won't change unless this is that "one in one-thousand" case.
 
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