Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[kiwi50]

I am SO confused!
Occams razor rings true. But in this situation I cannot believe that such generous people could abscond from their value system in such a huge way!
You either value life or you don't! Same as I never kick my dog...no matter how angry I am. It is just something that I have never given myself permission to do!
I just cannot imagine a murder/suicide scenario.

Going by what we know at this point I agree with you. I think Honey had everything to live for, new grandchild, holiday plans made. He didn't appear to have any interests outside his work. Maybe they weren't intending to move together.

 

[Ellmau]

Where did you read that he was retired?? I thought they did a welfare check on them because he hadn’t shown up for work that day [they were discovered]?

No, I believe it was their real estate agent who found them.

 

[Kilr0y]

I am SO confused!
Occams razor rings true. But in this situation I cannot believe that such generous people could abscond from their value system in such a huge way!
You either value life or you don't! Same as I never kick my dog...no matter how angry I am. It is just something that I have never given myself permission to do!
I just cannot imagine a murder/suicide scenario.

Occam's razor is a much more tricky thing in the case of a billionaire. I agree with you completely that I do not buy murder suicide. But applying Occam's razor requires that we understand all of the things this particular billionaire may have been into and some of those things are probably related to High Society functions that we are not privy to.

 

[JLD333]

I’m leaning towards murder/suicide after reading more about Mr. Sherman’s personality. I’d love to know more about why they are moving and selling a house they’ve lived in for some long when the listing suggested an elevator could be put in - if they didn’t have one already. I also think Honey’s drastic hair change is interesting.

I’m still open to other theories, but the LE theory fits Mr. Sherman’s personality type IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NaanOfYourBusiness]

It’s terrible if he killed his wife Honey. Why plan a holiday to Florida next week?

It will be interesting to see if Mr. Sherman recently got his will and affairs in order.

Mrs. Sherman certainly did not get her 'affairs in order' as she was planning social events for their upcoming vacation to Florida just hours before her death.

 

[NaanOfYourBusiness]

Statement from the Family of Barry and Honey Sherman

http://markets.businessinsider.com/...-Family-of-Barry-and-Honey-Sherman-1011611912

very concise statement. most probably lawyer-approved.

 

[chissus]

Who does their death benefit?

 

[1&2&3]

Perhaps I misread it or didn't understand it correctly. What I gathered from the article was that Mr. Sherman paid the four boys of the original investing partner, who was deceased, when he sold the company that their father and Mr. Sherman were invested in together. So that ended the investment the boys had in the original company from their father. Is that correct? Mr. Sherman bought them out.

However, as the years passed and Mr. Sherman became more successful and richer, the boys decided they were owed a portion of this success too. Is this correct?

Unless Mr. Sherman had not divided the original money from the first sale with the boy's father correctly and it could be proven years later, why would these guys think they had a claim on the business and money Mr. Sherman developed through the years?

It appeared that Mr. Sherman was very giving to these boys in their adulthood and saw to it that they were set up with lovely homes. He also tried to help two in rehabs to get their life straightened out.

Why would they come back later and sue him? What did I miss?

 

[ms_x_to_the_m]

It was stated earlier that Honey died elsewhere and was moved to the pool area. Is it possible that there are signs of a struggle or blood that was found in the bedroom/kitchen, for example.
Maybe he got into an argument, things got out of hand. He was devastated about killing her, so he dragged her to die with him.
It is a horrible way to die. Maybe he felt that he had nothing to live for. No purpose after retirement. Anything is possible. Such a rare case.

All moo

Sent from my Life One X2 using Tapatalk

 

[Lilibet]

It was stated earlier that Honey died elsewhere and was moved to the pool area. Is it possible that there are signs of a struggle or blood that was found in the bedroom/kitchen, for example.
Maybe he got into an argument, things got out of hand. He was devastated about killing her, so he dragged her to die with him.
It is a horrible way to die. Maybe he felt that he had nothing to live for. No purpose after retirement. Anything is possible. Such a rare case.

All moo

Sent from my Life One X2 using Tapatalk

This is my working theory at the moment. I think it’s very possible an argument escalated, got physical and went further than intended. That could happen to the seemingly best of couples under the wrong conditions (alcohol, infidelity, etc.). If that happened, I can imagine he would just want to die, rather than live without her facing the consequences (legal and social).

A 75 year old man is certainly capable of moving a body, etc. Not all are of course, but I live in a retirement community (we are in our early 70’s) and I’m continually amazed at how fit some men are even in their 80’s and 90’s.

But it’s hard to understand why he would go to all the trouble to change locations and simulate her hanging and hang himself. Perhaps she was seriously injured but not dead. Shooting may not have been an option and it’s noisy. Hanging is quiet and they wouldn’t be discovered immediately. He may have hoped it would look like both of them committed suicide, rather than being a murder (or manslaughter) and suicide. Or, he may have hoped people would think it was murder and continue to admire him. Hard to say. But I could also be persuaded to believe they both were murdered. We just don’t have enough evidence right now.

 

[Kilr0y]

This is my working theory at the moment. I think it’s very possible an argument escalated, got physical and went further than intended. That could happen to the seemingly best of couples under the wrong conditions (alcohol, infidelity, etc.). If that happened, I can imagine he would just want to die, rather than live without her facing the consequences (legal and social).

A 75 year old man is certainly capable of moving a body, etc. Not all are of course, but I live in a retirement community (we are in our early 70’s) and I’m continually amazed at how fit some men are even in their 80’s and 90’s.

But it’s hard to understand why he would go to all the trouble to change locations and simulate her hanging and hang himself. Perhaps she was seriously injured but not dead. Shooting may not have been an option and it’s noisy. Hanging is quiet and they wouldn’t be discovered immediately. He may have hoped it would look like both of them committed suicide, rather than being a murder (or manslaughter) and suicide. Or, he may have hoped people would think it was murder and continue to admire him. Hard to say. But I could also be persuaded to believe they both were murdered. We just don’t have enough evidence right now.

I repeat the concept of him killing her elsewhere and dragging her down into the basement does not make any sense. If he had killed her elsewhere and wanted to kill himself there would have been ample locations with pipes railings Etc that he would have been more likely to hang himself from. The concept of him dragging her all the way down to the basement where it is only a lap pool is ludicrous. People commit suicide in a location that they are very comfortable with so the idea that he would go to tremendous lengths to drag his wife into this random seemingly random location is just not consistent with that line of thinking. That line of thinking would have had him hanging himself nearby to where he had killed her only thinking that he could not live with himself. Why drag her all the way down to the basement lap pool and then quite literally string her up next to him? This was a scene staged to make them look bad and staged to be shocking which is the signature of some kind of hit. As I have repeated we cannot even really speculate on the number of motives there would be for a murder of a billionaire. This is trickier than a usual case because even some of the smaller issues to a billionaire would involve millions of dollars. Just think logically about this idea that he killed her elsewhere but then dragged her down stairs into the basement string her up next to the lap pool and then hanged himself by the lap pool. It does not make any sense if what you are saying is that he wanted to die nearby his wife. I saw the photos of the house and there would have been about a dozen locations that he would have went to before he would have dragged his wife's body downstairs to be by the lap pool. This was a scene staged for shock value.

Theory :
Perhaps he was about to finalize a new will that cut someone out and they were aware of being cut out of the will. This would explain why BOTH husband and wife were killed. I think we should really be thinking if you discount the concept of murder-suicide, then why were BOTH of them killed. If you conclude murder, it is a critical detail that someone went to the lengths of not just killing Barry but killing both of them.

This is one of a million theories that should be considered before everyone is just like "OK murder-suicide...makes sense.", because no, it really doesn't. People have read his comments about there being no God and life having no meaning but the second part of that quote relates to living for the sake of achievement and this man was continuing to achieve in his life. Murder-suicide is about as likely as the other million of motives there are at this point. They are all equally unlikely due to the strange nature of the scene, so they are all one in a million... but only one of them is the real truth. The elites who really know what Barry was "into" might close ranks on the police and we may never know what the true motive was for their demise.

 

[ms_x_to_the_m]

Kilr0y we agree to disagree. People who do these things (murder, suicide,?) Are not thinking with logic. They do things that makes sense to them and no one else.
Is it wrong to say that murder would be ideal to preserve all the good that they have done in their life. I know, I sound horrible.

All moo

Sent from my Life One X2 using Tapatalk

 

[Kilr0y]

Kilr0y we agree to disagree. People who do these things (murder, suicide,?) Are not thinking with logic. They do things that makes sense to them and no one else.
Is it wrong to say that murder would be ideal to preserve all the good that they have done in their life. I know, I sound horrible.

All moo

Sent from my Life One X2 using Tapatalk

I don't completely discount murder-suicide but I think it is foolish to give it more Credence than any of the millions of motives someone would have had for murder. Especially considering the completely bizarre nature of the scene. There is not thinking with logic and then there is completely going against every other murder suicide ever. Those people weren't thinking with logic either, yet none of them acted the way that it is being claimed Barry Sherman would have acted in this case of murder-suicide. This crime scene stands out as highly unusual and suspect and his being a billionaire means that the list of other motives for double murder would be extremely extensive. I'm putting murder-suicide at about 30% probability with all the long list of other motives at about 70% probability. I just think there is a rush to judgment and a rush to trying to make this crime scene fit murder suicide because it is the first thing that the media reported. People are trying to twist a crime scene that does not fit murder suicide into being logical for murder suicide. This crime scene is not logical for murder suicide.

 

[Sphinx]

I agree that it is quite mysterious.

The post mortem examinations will reveal clues. I hope the police have answers soon.

Often, even after treatment/surgery, prostate cancer leads to cancer in another part of the body, like bone cancer, which is a slow, horrible, painful death. I knew of a case like that, and am just saying that this might be a possibility, and if so, Mr. Sherman might have decided to take matters into his own hands, making sure that he and his wife did not have to go through that. I hope I am wrong.

It also seems to me that because of his wealth and influence he could have had many enemies. Very high level assassins for hire can I have read, move like ghosts, and leave the impression of suicide or accident, when in fact, it was murder. Even if he, or she did have cancer, the possibility that they might have made changes to wills, could have also provided motives. Follow the money. Who benefits, and how ? That, and the medical evidence after autopsies, as well as forensic evidence in the house may provide answers. For the family's sake, and for justice I hope so. IMO

 

[Lilibet]

I repeat the concept of him killing her elsewhere and dragging her down into the basement does not make any sense. If he had killed her elsewhere and wanted to kill himself there would have been ample locations with pipes railings Etc that he would have been more likely to hang himself from. The concept of him dragging her all the way down to the basement where it is only a lap pool is ludicrous. People commit suicide in a location that they are very comfortable with so the idea that he would go to tremendous lengths to drag his wife into this random seemingly random location is just not consistent with that line of thinking. That line of thinking would have had him hanging himself nearby to where he had killed her only thinking that he could not live with himself. Why drag her all the way down to the basement lap pool and then quite literally string her up next to him? This was a scene staged to make them look bad and staged to be shocking which is the signature of some kind of hit. As I have repeated we cannot even really speculate on the number of motives there would be for a murder of a billionaire. This is trickier than a usual case because even some of the smaller issues to a billionaire would involve millions of dollars. Just think logically about this idea that he killed her elsewhere but then dragged her down stairs into the basement string her up next to the lap pool and then hanged himself by the lap pool. It does not make any sense if what you are saying is that he wanted to die nearby his wife. I saw the photos of the house and there would have been about a dozen locations that he would have went to before he would have dragged his wife's body downstairs to be by the lap pool. This was a scene staged for shock value.

Theory :
Perhaps he was about to finalize a new will that cut someone out and they were aware of being cut out of the will. This would explain why BOTH husband and wife were killed. I think we should really be thinking if you discount the concept of murder-suicide, then why were BOTH of them killed. If you conclude murder, it is a critical detail that someone went to the lengths of not just killing Barry but killing both of them.

This is one of a million theories that should be considered before everyone is just like "OK murder-suicide...makes sense.", because no, it really doesn't. People have read his comments about there being no God and life having no meaning but the second part of that quote relates to living for the sake of achievement and this man was continuing to achieve in his life. Murder-suicide is about as likely as the other million of motives there are at this point. They are all equally unlikely due to the strange nature of the scene, so they are all one of them million but only one of them is the real truth. The elites who really know what he was into might close ranks on the police and we may never know what the true motive was for their demise.

BBM

You make some good points. At this point we are just tossing around theories and yours is one. I don’t have a strong opinion at this point. Anything is possible and no one knows for sure what happened. I have been here long enough to know that many things about a death do not make sense and that strong assertions about what someone would/could or would not/could not do are often innacurate. People do the strangest things. It very well could be murder, but at this point, all theories are equally valid and can be respected, I hope.
JMO

 

[Kilr0y]

Often, even after treatment/surgery, prostate cancer leads to cancer in another part of the body, like bone cancer, which is a slow, horrible, painful death. I knew of a case like that, and am just saying that this might be a possibility, and if so, Mr. Sherman might have decided to take matters into his own hands, making sure that he and his wife did not have to go through that. I hope I am wrong.

It also seems to me that because of his wealth and influence he could have had many enemies. Very high level assassins for hire can I have read, move like ghosts, and leave the impression of suicide or accident, when in fact, it was murder. Even if he, or she did have cancer, the possibility that they might have made changes to wills, could have also provided motives. Follow the money. Who benefits, and how ? That, and the medical evidence after autopsies, as well as forensic evidence in the house may provide answers. For the family's sake, and for justice I hope so. IMO

Having a recurrence of his cancer does not really help to build the case that he would have been able-bodied enough to drag his wife down to the basement. This crime scene does not fit any other murder-suicide that anyone can think of. Murder-suicide may not be a logical action, but there is some consistency to the action of people who commit the crime. This would go against just about every other case. I agree that the post-mortem will be helpful but as you mentioned there are very high-level assassin's who can essentially leave no Trace. The number of motives there would be here, I specifically mentioned the theoretical case of Barry Sherman cutting someone out of his will, should be taken just as seriously as murder suicide. Personally I give them a higher probability of being the actual cause then some kind of one in a million murder suicide. All of the possibilities here are really exotic and one in a million so take your pick, but don't make it seem like the Far and Away most likely thing here is murder suicide. The media probably released that just so that if they actually are investigating a murder they can do it surreptitiously. The families statements being so adamantly against murder-suicide are telling. The shocking display of the body's is very telling. The double murder possibilities seem like they outweigh the one murder suicide possibility because it is a very bizarre and unusual murder-suicide possibility in comparison to a typical murder suicide.

 

[dotr]

Although there has not been any evidence to suggest a break in,but
if someone did break in, here are some of the ways it might have been done,interesting read about "Spiderman. " fwiw.
Maybe part of the reason for selling the house was due to incidences such as those linked below and from my earlier post #112
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...an-found-dead-Toronto&p=13818587#post13818587

Wondering also if everyone who visited the home due to the sale are the same number of people who left after viewing it?
imo, speculation.
https://torontolife.com/city/break-...errorized-torontos-wealthiest-neighbourhoods/

[h=1]The Break-In Artist: The hunt for the cat burglar who terrorized Toronto’s wealthiest neighbourhoods[/h]
By Malcolm Johnston | March 25, 2015

The police boundary that encompasses parts of Lawrence Park, North York and the Bridle Path is Toronto’s most targeted. Since 2004, it has suffered a reported 9,374 break and enters, for an average of 852 per year or more than two per day.

As a criminal, however, he was sophisticated and methodical. During B&Es, he wore a dark, heavy denim jacket and pants, comfortable yet resistant to tearing or cuts, crucial to avoid leaving behind blood or other DNA evidence. He wore Kevlar gloves for the same reason. He owned a variety of cheap running shoes and often used rental cars, paid for in cash and probably rented under a fake name so that police couldn’t trace his plates

 

[Kilr0y]

I also think that one of the firm logical questions that must be asked to determine this case is why both of them would have been needed to be murdered. If you disregard murder-suicide for a second and only think along the lines of a double murder, then why did it have to be DOUBLE murder? This is why I bring up the concept of someone getting cut out of their will because you would not just have to kill Barry Sherman you would also have to kill the person that would take over his estate. So if you forget about murder-suicide for just a second, then let's think about theories that would explain why both Barry and Honey Sherman would have BOTH been the target of a hit. This is a crucial detail, because the motives for murder of Barry are a mile long but the motives for murder of Honey are much much shorter.

 

[Sphinx]

Id like to know how often the personal trainer came to the house, and why he was so anxious to be allowed inside, had he witnessed a previous altercation?
Honey was full of holiday plans I can't imagine her suiciding

How close a "friend" might he have been to Honey ? What does he know ? Did he leave something personal in the house that he wanted to retrieve ? IMO

 

[kiwi50]

If it does turn out to be murder suicide, he may not have dragged her far, police may be just saying you couldn't hang someone who was conscious who did not want to be hanged. She may have been drowned.

Whatever the outcome it is very tragic, they were good people who gave a lot to society.
Some nice tributes here.
https://jewishtoronto.com/in-memoriam-honey-and-barry-sherman#idc-cover