Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[Kilr0y]

The family statement: "Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths."

What strikes me is what's not said -- no mention of their parents love for each other.

Yes but think in terms of billionaires as power couples. For example, Bill and Hillary Clinton would never end in a murder-suicide. The two of them are essentially in a marriage of convenience where mutually their power helps the other party. The bottom line here is that their power was certainly not diminishing. He had just been victorious in major lawsuits and their wealth and power seem to be at their maximum. I do not think as a couple we can really compare these two to any old domestic situation just as we cannot compare this murder to any old murder. If a hobo drifter gets murdered, it would be ludicrous to suggest a high-powered and sophisticated assassination by well trained hitmen. In the case of a billionaire, this may still not be likely but it is not ludicrous to suggest it as a possibility. I don't think the lack of mention of love between the couple really means anything. I think this couple fed on each other's power and we're doing quite a good job of it. I think murder suicide is a very poor explanation of the scene although statistically still an outside chance. The thing with the billionaire is that the motives are so much more extensive and exotic then in any old case.

 

[Gardenista]

Yes, but in terms of the media, it's still boring old Toronto the Good.

Here's some top stories competing with the news about the Shermans:

*One person seriously injured in Trinity-Bellwoods collision (CP 24)
*Honest Ed's is gone, but the Bathurst and Bloor holiday turkey giveaway lives on (CBC Toronto)
*Last Dance: With Caddy's closing, another Toronto strip club bites the dust (Sun)
*Lack of legal protection for police who administer naloxone worries some Ontario forces (Globe)

Again, my point is there's nothing suspicious to me about some of the Toronto media going ahead and publishing rumours.

Jury reaches verdict in Laura Babcock murder trial in Toronto

Man charged with second-degree murder in death of wife

Tess Richey murder: Security images released of unknown male

Tentative deal reached in internet drug case

Toronto police say there have been four deaths due to fentanyl and 20 incidents of fentanyl overdose since Thursday

 

[MizStery]

I think we've also got a distraught family who won't accept double suicide or murder-suicide...and who also happen to have very highly-placed friends.
Lot of big names (friends of the family) already commenting in the media.
The family has already voiced their displeasure with leaks/conjecture from Police sources.
I'm guessing Police are going to very tight-lipped about any developments from here on.

Perhaps bringing in the homicide unit is a nod to the influential family’s wishes, even though LE has made it pretty clear it appears to be a murder/suicide.

I think you both have made a good case that the family wishes are being followed. A case in point The Toronto Globe and Mail has removed their comment portion and replaced it with "[FONT=.SFUIText]We have closed comments on this story for legal reasons".
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www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/police-investigating-deaths-of-toronto-billionaire-barry-sherman-and-wife-as-murder-suicide/article37357096/[FONT=.SFUIText]
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:cow:
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[otto]

We're actually pretty close.
Canada is 9.98 million sq km
Ranked 3rd. 2% more than United States

United States is 9.83 million sq km
Ranked 4th.
Don't forget Alaska and Hawaii.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Geography

I think the OP may have been referencing population though. US - 2015 = 321.2 million
Canada = 35.8 million

Russia is the largest country in the world. Canada is the second largest country in the world. It is not a small country. Canada has rules for media that are different from what is allowed in the USA. Rushing to publish without fact checking is not typically a problem with Canadian media.

Murder-suicide happens in Canada, even amongst wealthy people. I think the family does not want to believe that this is a murder suicide. Homicide detectives will investigate the deaths as a homicide but if there's no evidence, that's that. Investigators are now reviewing security camera footage. If footage has been erased, I'm sure the person behind it is traceable.

 

[Lilibet]

An absolutely fundamental question has yet to be pondered on this forum. If one discounts the murder-suicide explanation (just for the sake of critical thinking), the question arises of why this was a DOUBLE murder instead of just the murder of the billionaire Barry Sherman or just the wife Honey Sherman.

What motives would exist that would require the murder of BOTH Barry Sherman and Honey Sherman? If this were strictly related to the pharmaceutical business, then why not ONLY murder Barry Sherman? The same logic can be applied to many different hypothetical motives. The fact that this was a double murder of both husband and wife should narrow down the list of actual motives from the ones that are not explainable through the death of both parties.

My first example would have been the changing of the couple's Will where perhaps someone was being cut out of the Will. If both Barry and his wife had control over changes to the Will, then it would be necessary for both of them to be murdered before any change were finalized. This is only one example in a long line of possible explanations. Since this man was a billionaire, the list of motives is especially long and healthy. Any one of these particular motives may seem like a long shot, but this also was a long shot as a murder-suicide as well. This would have been one of the strangest murder-suicides of all time, so collectively the double murder explanations outnumber the murder-suicide explanations in both quantity and likelihood.

BBM

Here’s a case in which the wife, young son and housekeeper were collateral damage in the murder of the husband, former employer of the murderer. A murderer will not want to be identified and will not want to leave witnesses. Honey may have been a witness. So, if it turns out to be a double murder, the motive could just be something to do with her husband.

https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/evidence-detailed-dcs-2015-quadruple-murder-case/

 

[Jennifer17]

Jury reaches verdict in Laura Babcock murder trial in Toronto

Man charged with second-degree murder in death of wife

Tess Richey murder: Security images released of unknown male

Tentative deal reached in internet drug case

Toronto police say there have been four deaths due to fentanyl and 20 incidents of fentanyl overdose since Thursday

All years old. Except for the last one, and plenty of them in the US.

 

[dotr]

http://m.startribune.com/intrigue-g...fter-billionaires-deaths/464853283/?section=/

By CATHERINE PORTER , New York Times
December 17, 2017 - 10:05 PM

TORONTO – Barry Sherman, a Canadian billionaire, generic-drug mogul and philanthropist, once promised that the autobiography he was writing would be a page-turner, packed with stories of intrigue, duplicity and outright corruption by his competition.
The last chapter was without doubt the most sensational — and he did not get to write it.

Although the Toronto area is home to 6.2 million people, it can often feel like a small town where everyone knows one another — particularly among the small moneyed elite. And so Hanukkah and Christmas parties across the snow-swept city over the weekend were a buzzing hive of disbelief, shock and finger-pointing about the couple’s death.

“There is absolutely zero debate in my mind, this was a double homicide,” said Linda Frum, a senator in the Canadian Parliament and a close, longtime friend of the couple.

She added: “This idea that Barry would ever harm Honey — he adored her. That’s impossible. He was a gentle, good man.”

Fred Waks, a real estate developer and close friend of the Shermans, said: “Barry was involved in big pharmacy on a worldwide basis. His lawsuits pertained to billions of dollars, back and forth. When you are dealing with the size of that industry and the amounts we are talking about, you make enemies.”

He added, “And you make enemies on a global basis.”

The couple showed all the signs of an expanding, invested life. They were building a new home, helping plan their daughter’s wedding and celebrating the arrival of a third grandchild.

They had booked a long vacation north of Miami Beach, Florida, where they owned a condominium and visited regularly. Honey Sherman, who was set to leave Monday, sent out email to friends last Monday asking for dates to golf and dinner for the couple while they were there.

It was signed off: “Looking forward to hearing back asap. xoxo Honey.”

 

[LaborDayRN]

Russia is the largest country in the world. Canada is the second largest country in the world. It is not a small country. Canada has rules for media that are different from what is allowed in the USA. Rushing to publish without fact checking is not typically a problem with Canadian media.

Murder-suicide happens in Canada, even amongst wealthy people. I think the family does not want to believe that this is a murder suicide. Homicide detectives will investigate the deaths as a homicide but if there's no evidence, that's that. Investigators are now reviewing security camera footage. If footage has been erased, I'm sure the person behind it is traceable.

My point was only that I thought the OP was referring to population (and the OP has in fact verified that). I see that on the website I quoted, Canada is listed as #3 by land mass. I believe your are correct, it's the second largest with the US being the third. And yes, Canada is geographically large.

 

[Kilr0y]

statistically these cases are overwhelmingly murder-suicide spousal related....... but just because it's 90% - arbitrary number - that doesn't mean this isn't one of the 10%. and demographics/enemies/etc. probably make this less likely than average case.

google what % of married women are killed by spouse/partner/ex-H or BF vs. non-family members?

Just because every person is most likely to be murdered by a relative does not mean this object can be applied to every case. When I watch the Zapruder film of the JFK assassination, my first thought is not the Jackie did it. This would be the most bizarre murder-suicide of all time and this means that double murder should also be considered very strongly. If you found two bodies in a seemingly random location and the only markings on both were ligature marks I do not believe anyone's first thought would be murder suicide. First double suicide, then double murder, then perhaps murder suicide. There are so many details connected to the crime scene that would make this the strangest murder-suicide of all time. The article I have already given proves that Murder by hanging followed by suicide by hanging is almost unheard of. In fact, if the media had not been saying murder suicide from the very get-go I highly doubt that would be the most agreed upon Theory right now in this forum. Yet since the media came out right away with murder suicide everyone has been trying to make the facts fit the murder suicide explanation. They are finding it is an awkward fit, but they are not willing to really take the double murder Concepts to their fullest conclusions.

 

[kemo]

In the US there are approximately 1500 murder/suicides a year. The vast majority involve involved an intimate partner situation where the male is the murderer. Often, the male is significantly older than the female or otherwise perceives his life as going downhill while the female partner is positioned to move ahead. Substance abuse, business failure or other financial problems, or a history of depression or other mental illness are common factors. Being a billionaire does not preclude all such problems but, I would think, “ loss of status or respect”; a motive often implicated in male suicide, would not be a factor in this situation. Still, we really don’t know what goes on “ behind closed doors”.

I am surprised that the Toronto PD were quick is labeling this a murder/suicide. Maybe I just assume that special consideration will be given to the Rich, as it would be in the US. The Coroner’s report should answer a lot of questions but probably not all.


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[Kilr0y]

BBM

Here’s a case in which the wife, young son and housekeeper were collateral damage in the murder of the husband, former employer of the murderer. A murderer will not want to be identified and will not want to leave witnesses. Honey may have been a witness. So, if it turns out to be a double murder, the motive could just be something to do with her husband.

https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/evidence-detailed-dcs-2015-quadruple-murder-case/

The only thing is that if this were double murder it would have had to have been a highly sophisticated double murder and in that case the idea that the wife would have just stumbled upon the scene and had to have been taken out as a witness are highly unlikely. If they wanted to kill only the husband they could have easily done it in a way that they knew would not have involved the wife such as when she went to Florida and he was to meet her there. They would have done it at a time when they knew the two would be separated. I really think if you think critically along the double murder lines of thought, you will really find it inescapable that if this was double murder we must take it as intentional that both parties were murdered. Neither murder was an accident or performed simply because the other party was a witness. If This Were double murder, it will have been because it was intended to be a double murder.

 

[dotr]

One case of a staged suicide.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/nyregion/07actress.html
By THOMAS J. LUECKNOV. 7, 2006

When Adrienne Shelly, an actress, was found dead in her Greenwich Village office last week, the police suspected suicide. Her body, with a sheet tied around her neck, was hanging from the shower curtain rod in the office bathroom.

But family members and friends were skeptical. Her show business career was thriving, they said, and she was a devoted mother to her 3-year-old daughter. They insisted that she would not have taken her own life.

And some investigators were skeptical, too. Yesterday, the police charged a 19-year-old construction worker with murder, saying her death was the horrific result of a chain of events set off by a complaint common to New York City residents: construction noise.

The police said that after Ms. Shelly argued with the worker about the noise on Wednesday, he struck her in the face.

Then, suspecting that the blow was fatal, he hanged her from the shower curtain rod in an attempt to make her death look like a suicide, investigators said.

Continue reading the main story




“We have felt adamantly that what happened was not the result of suicide,” said Rachel Sheedy, Ms. Shelly’s agent, when informed of the arrest yesterday. “It is a great relief knowing that the police have taken us seriously.”

“It appeared to be a suicide — he staged it as a suicide,” the investigator said. But he said investigators “never just accepted it for what it was staged to be.”

 

[Satchie]

BBM

Here’s a case in which the wife, young son and housekeeper were collateral damage in the murder of the husband, former employer of the murderer. A murderer will not want to be identified and will not want to leave witnesses. Honey may have been a witness. So, if it turns out to be a double murder, the motive could just be something to do with her husband.

https://wtop.com/dc/2017/06/evidence-detailed-dcs-2015-quadruple-murder-case/

That was a such a nightmare crime, just ghastly. I don't doubt that sort of thing could happen to a wealthy family in Toronto, I just think there would be evidence that police would have spotted. That kind of criminal is very careless: he left pizza boxes, as I recall, lots of evidence.

For something to be meticulously planned and carried out so as to fool police to suspect suicide, that's what I have trouble with.

 

[ttcRider]

at this level why bother to hang them? IMO I think it is a murder/suicide. She probably had no idea what was going on and that was why she continued to make plans for the upcoming wedding and vacation. Wasn't there quite a few lawsuits against him which could be a huge financial burden. I always follow the money like they say to on TV. :fence:

 

[Lilibet]

Interesting article showing that Canadian police often don’t release information about murder-suicides.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...der-suicides-hidden-fromview/article31702496/

Canadian Statistics for murder-suicide 2001-2011. Most spousal murder-suicides were committed by the male with a gun.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2013001/article/11805/11805-2-eng.htm

 

[Russian Blue]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...72eac1e73b6_story.html?utm_term=.b05a0b874eae

 

[Jennifer17]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...72eac1e73b6_story.html?utm_term=.b05a0b874eae

6.9 million is a modest home? How much can a pile of cement be worth?

 

[PaulR]

6.9 million is a modest home? How much can a pile of cement be worth?

Toronto real estate prices are pretty crazy - think SF Bay Area where a million will buy you a pile of cement.

 

[Satchie]

Just because every person is most likely to be murdered by a relative does not mean this object can be applied to every case. When I watch the Zapruder film of the JFK assassination, my first thought is not the Jackie did it. This would be the most bizarre murder-suicide of all time and this means that double murder should also be considered very strongly. If you found two bodies in a seemingly random location and the only markings on both were ligature marks I do not believe anyone's first thought would be murder suicide. First double suicide, then double murder, then perhaps murder suicide. There are so many details connected to the crime scene that would make this the strangest murder-suicide of all time. The article I have already given proves that Murder by hanging followed by suicide by hanging is almost unheard of. In fact, if the media had not been saying murder suicide from the very get-go I highly doubt that would be the most agreed upon Theory right now in this forum. Yet since the media came out right away with murder suicide everyone has been trying to make the facts fit the murder suicide explanation. They are finding it is an awkward fit, but they are not willing to really take the double murder Concepts to their fullest conclusions.

But police don't make decisions on cases based on statistical probabilities, they look at the crime scene, all the evidence, they follow what the evidence indicates most likely happened or didn't happen.

So if there's no evidence whatever of an external person coming into the home (from external cameras, security alarms on doors, etc), they have to look at another scenario to explain the deaths, no matter how statistically improbable it might or might not be.

As they continue to investigate, the new evidence may support or contradict that scenario. But they have to start somewhere, and it works best to start with what the evidence suggests happened, rather than with some kind of statistically-based theory.

 

[Jennifer17]

Toronto real estate prices are pretty crazy - think SF Bay Area where a million will buy you a pile of cement.

I live in Australia. Highest home prices in the world, but that awful McMansion would not get that money in Sydney.